Corporal Punishment

Caedmon · Aug 12, 2003

Over the past few weeks, I have seen numerous families with small children in stores, probably because school is starting. I have also observed these children, on occasion, receiving anywhere from one, up to a dozen, blows to the body, for something as inane as crying, whether it be for a toy, for a piece of candy, or simply because they desire to be held. Soon after receiving the blows, they not only continue to cry, but increase the volume and insistence, turning to wailing. What exactly does this accomplish? What message does it send to the child? Is striking a child as a form of coercive punishment moral?

Laura · Aug 12, 2003

Caedmon said:
Over the past few weeks, I have seen numerous families with small children in stores, probably because school is starting. I have also observed these children, on occasion, receiving anywhere from one, up to a dozen, blows to the body, for something as inane as crying, whether it be for a toy, for a piece of candy, or simply because they desire to be held. Soon after receiving the blows, they not only continue to cry, but increase the volume and insistence, turning to wailing. What exactly does this accomplish? What message does it send to the child? Is striking a child as a form of coercive punishment moral?

I've seen that kind of stuff plenty of times. It takes a lot for me to restrain myself from giving the parent(s) a piece of my mind when I see it happening.

Hitting children is wrong. Masking it as a valid form of punishment is disgusting. Why do you need to hurt your child in order for them to listen to you? Not smart enough to think of something that doesn't involve violence?

Children learn by example. Why not teach them to be non-violent instead of teaching them that hitting is okay?

How anyone can hit a child is beyond me, I think I would be sick to my stomach if I ever did.

feral · Aug 12, 2003

i am strongly against physical punishment of any kind. hitting or beating a child does not teach them any lesson except that violence solves problems, and the biggest bully wins.
no one gains respect out of hitting. that only provokes fear in the child. reasoning with them, explaining the problem and teaching them the proper behavior is so much wiser.
i find that the people in the grocery stores yelling and smacking their children have very poor parental skills, and let the kids get out of control in the first place. i am a nanny for three children, ages 2 to 7, and never have to discipline because i don't let them step out of bounds to begin with. no threats required.

spinto · Aug 12, 2003

It think it depends on the child and the age of those children (If you still have to "spank" your teenager, there are some issues there.). Some children respond well to a good scolding and some just don't. If you have very strong willed child, you may need to get creative to get the point across to them. Now corporal punishment in schools I think is just wrong... But if your child is getting out of hand and there is no connection to words, sometimes you gotta give them a quick pop on the butt to get the point across. It worked for me when I was a child and I wasn't a child that long ago...I'm only 21 now. I hold no grudges and I knew when it happened, it was for a reason

Some kids (and especially parents) are so frustrating... I have no patience for the parents who let their kids run around in restaurants and bother people while they're trying to eat... All I see are those parents telling those kids.. "No honey", "sit down", "be still", "be quite", and they never lift a finger to control their kids...And, off the kid runs, screaming and running like a wild animal because all they know is they want to play. All the while, holistic "no-spank" Mommy and Daddy try to EXPLAIN to the out-of-hand child (who's not paying attentiong anyway) that his behavior is unacceptable.... What really needs to happen is mom or dad takes that child to the bathroom and give them a quick little pop on the butt, let them cry it out, explain how they need to behave and take them back to the table.

Sometimes younger children just need a pop on that behind to get the point across. Why?Psychologically, children at a young age can only see what is going on in the world through their very tunnelled perspective... It's a developmental egocentrism. All children develop out of this egocentrism at different rates. They simply do not have the reasoning compacity to understand how their behavior effects other people the same way adults understand that concept. That difference in understanding is enough for other people's feelings to be placed as secondary importance in a child's mind. It's secondary to what they want. So, a physical communication (spank) gives a light shock to the attention span--so that they are forced to pay attention to where that shock is coming from (mom or dad). Attention is attained and communication can happen.

Jet Black · Aug 13, 2003

I can understand corporal punishment for younger children who expose themselves to danger (try explaining heat or electricity or death to an eighteen month old)... however I cannot really see the necessity for it as a punishment for social crimes. the punishment should be appropriate to the crime.

Blindfaith · Aug 13, 2003

That was a very well-thought out post, spinto.

Caedmon · Aug 13, 2003

spinto said:
It think it depends on the child and the age of those children (If you still have to "spank" your teenager, there are some issues there.). Some children respond well to a good scolding and some just don't. If you have very strong willed child, you may need to get creative to get the point across to them. Now corporal punishment in schools I think is just wrong... But if your child is getting out of hand and there is no connection to words, sometimes you gotta give them a quick pop on the butt to get the point across. It worked for me when I was a child and I wasn't a child that long ago...I'm only 21 now. I hold no grudges and I knew when it happened, it was for a reason

Some kids (and especially parents) are so frustrating... I have no patience for the parents who let their kids run around in restaurants and bother people while they're trying to eat... All I see are those parents telling those kids.. "No honey", "sit down", "be still", "be quite", and they never lift a finger to control their kids...And, off the kid runs, screaming and running like a wild animal because all they know is they want to play. All the while, holistic "no-spank" Mommy and Daddy try to EXPLAIN to the out-of-hand child (who's not paying attentiong anyway) that his behavior is unacceptable.... What really needs to happen is mom or dad takes that child to the bathroom and give them a quick little pop on the butt, let them cry it out, explain how they need to behave and take them back to the table.

Sometimes younger children just need a pop on that behind to get the point across. Why?Psychologically, children at a young age can only see what is going on in the world through their very tunnelled perspective... It's a developmental egocentrism. All children develop out of this egocentrism at different rates. They simply do not have the reasoning compacity to understand how their behavior effects other people the same way adults understand that concept. That difference in understanding is enough for other people's feelings to be placed as secondary importance in a child's mind. It's secondary to what they want. So, a physical communication (spank) gives a light shock to the attention span--so that they are forced to pay attention to where that shock is coming from (mom or dad). Attention is attained and communication can happen.

A well thought out post... But this is what I see in stores:

"Moooooommmmm-mmmmmaaaaaaaa... Moooommmmm-mmmmmaaaaaa... Ooooooooo... Ooooooooooooooo..."

"STOP THAT CRYIN'! SIT YOUR BUTT DOWN IN THAT BUGGY!"

"Ooooooo, Mooooommmm-mmmmmaaaaaaaa... Hoooolllllldddddd meeeeee, Hoooooolllllllllddddd meeeeee...

"

"SHUT UP!!! SIT THAT BUTT DOWN!!! I'M TELLIN' YOU!!!"

*POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP!*

"WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"

"SHUT UP!!! I SAID SHUT UP!!!"

*POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP!*

"WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

"

ad infinitum, ad nauseum, etc...

No lie... I've heard women deliver up to fourteen aggressive blows to a child in rapid succession. Now is this moral? It would be "acceptable" if it stopped at one -- not that I condone coercive corporal punishment -- but it never ceases to amaze me, the wanton brutality and exercise of anger that I've seen some mothers use to "discipline" their children.

And on the playing topic... It is the nature of a child to want to play. By striking them for following this impulse, I believe that you send the message to the child that "playing is bad," or "exploration of the world is bad." Now you might say that this is not what is being delivered, but rather what is being communicated is that "playing is bad" in this situation, or at this moment. But as you said, a child does not psychologically grasp this concept, so I believe that they interpret this as "playing is [always] bad." And one day when they grow up, they may look back on it and "understand" what it was for, and believe there was a good reason for it, but to the child at that stage in their life, I believe it is an unjust technique, just imho. I have even seen a child be struck for merely saying "hello" to people that pass by their buggy in the store. I see that as cruel and quite ridiculous. And maybe I'm just an odd bird, but I don't mind little kids coming up to me while I'm eating, to talk and play, and do all those little things that are natural for children to do. I live for that. The young and innocent stay neither. Enjoy it while you can. "Suffer the children..."

spinto · Aug 13, 2003

Well the examples you provide are not good punishment techniques for a child and I agree. All the yelling, the hitting, and no explanation... Does not furnish communication.

In those situations, it just may be that mom or dad don't do much in the way of behavioral conditioning in the home. So, when the child is out in public, they just don't know how to behave.. Mom and dad have no patience and all they want is the kid to sit and be still, while they shop. So, they hit and yell and say "JUST DO WHAT I SAY". Nope, it doesn't work but that is what happends. The child just doesn't know what is expected of them.

Even though I say that a child can't completely grasp how thier behavior effects other people, they can be shown that concept from a parent who is sensitive to the way a child's mind works (Just because they can't grasp it for themselves does not mean they can't be taught. After all, we are dealing with a human mind, no matter how young it is.). If you talk to a child and explain on their level, they will understand. So in that "playing" situation, they weren't getting spanked for playing, they were getting spanked for not minding Mom and Dad. Children will understand the difference... I know I always did.

And yes, exploration is bad for a child when they can stand to get hurt because they are away from Mom and Dad. And exploration is bad when they are intruding in other peoples' space. Not everyone appreciates or likes children's curiosity and there is nothing wrong with that. A perfect stranger should not have to put up with other peoples' kids just because, "Oh, they need to EXPLORE". You let them explore all they want, and you will have a BRAT soon or later. It is much better to "spoon feed" the world to them under your guide as a parent while they are that young. Later, they will have the maturity to explore on their own a little more.

But yeah, with a young child, words should used first... and if that doesn't work, you gotta get their attention in a more direct way...

You know, all the spankings I got when I was a young child, I never remember them hurting... I was just so embarassed I starting crying... But, I would know that my mom had reached her limit, and I would be paying attention enough to really SEE why she was upset with me...

Blindfaith · Aug 13, 2003

Caedmon, what you're describing isn't what spinto is trying to get across. There's a world of difference between the two.

I happen to agree with what spinto is explaining.

For all of the grocery shopping, and whatever other type of shopping I have to do, I must say that what you're witnessing has happened in my presence only 1% of the time. Is it right? Heck no - the parent ought to be slapped up alongside the head. But, the majority of parents shopping with their kids don't treat their misbehaving children in that fashion.

bulldog86 · Aug 14, 2003

Proverbs 13:4 "He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently."

I happen to agree. Now, the example given is just sad and sickening.... My parents spanked me, but never in public, and only when I deserved it. If I lied, yelled at my mom, blatantly ignored them when they told me what to do (and that didn't involve, "SHUT UP!").

I believe that people are not basically good, but basically evil. I believe that children are not "good," but are "bad." I'm not saying to spank them just for being kids -- that's sadistic. But sometimes is takes more than a good example and nice friendly little chat to get the point across. I'm still young enough to remember my little kid days, and I can tell you with certainty that "talking to me" wouldn't have suceeded. That would have just encouraged me. It be like sending a hardened criminal to a psychiatrist after being convicted of murder (obviously, on a totally different plane, but I feel it still applies).

spinto · Aug 14, 2003

Well I wouldn't say all people or especially children are basically bad--talk about a bleak look at our fellow people. Rather, a child is like a clean slate or an unprogramed hard drive. They need to learn what is acceptable and what is not--they need to be programed. Like most of us that learn, you must make plenty of mistakes until you get it right. parent's job is to provide lessons to children in the most understandable way they can.

bulldog86 · Aug 15, 2003

Bleak... yeah. There is the capacity for good in every person (I believe that's due to our originally being created in God's image), but I believe that the evil nature is stronger. And I do believe that mankind is basically evil. Look back through history. Do you see more evil or more good? Do you see more compassionate or more sadistic rulers and kings?

I see a child as a hard drive programmed to do wrong. Innocent? Yes. Responsible for their actions? No. Right and wrong must be engrained into their minds so that when they do become responsible for their actions (the "age of accountability."... somwhere between 10 and 15 for most folks, I think), they will hopefully choose right over wrong.

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."

Laura · Aug 15, 2003

bulldog86 said:
I see a child as a hard drive programmed to do wrong. Innocent? Yes. Responsible for their actions? No. Right and wrong must be engrained into their minds so that when they do become responsible for their actions (the "age of accountability."... somwhere between 10 and 15 for most folks, I think), they will hopefully choose right over wrong.

Wow...what a depressing thought.

I see children as innocent and not programmed one way or another until the people around them influence them. They are not born ready to do bad things. They are a blank slate. The people around them, the things they see, and how they are treated are all large parts in determining who they are.

bulldog86 · Aug 15, 2003

*shrugs* I'm not a depressed person, nor do I have the "Marvin" complex (anyone read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?)... It's just the way I've always seen things and, as I am a Christian, it's what I see in Scripture.

Romans 3:10-12 "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.' "

Isaiah 53:6 "All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him."

Corporal Punishment

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