Did God desire...

I would have to say that enjoying, desiring, and allowing are all 3 separate things.

Reformationist said:

Hello everyone. I have been reading a great book (again) that addresses a topic that made me curious what others thought.

Did God desire man to fall?

As I see it there are only three possibilities:

Yes, no, or God was indifferent.

If yes, why?

If not, does that mean that it happened contrary to God's desire for man to not fall?

Or, was God indifferent to man's fall? That is, it was not something His providential Will either brought about or prevented.

If pertinent and possible, post Scripture to support your view?

Thanks,
God bless

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Don, what book are you reading that is prompting these questions?

I hesitate to answer because any answer I come up with I can also come up with an argument against it.

Hi Reformationist:

I don't have scripture that gives a specific answer, but those that imply the answer.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:8
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:9
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:10
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

[size=-1]Ephesians 1:12
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Some observations of the above scriptures: He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that is before Adam and Eve; and He chose us in Christ. That presumes that we were sinners because only the lost need a savior. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Luke 5:31
And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.

[size=-1]Luke 5:32
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]


[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]My reasoning goes, if God chose us before the foundation of the world, and He knew we were sinners that needed to be in Christ, then He must have desired Adam and Eve to fall to show forth His glory in Christ.
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Reformationist said:

Actually, there are a number of books that I've read recently that address these issues but the one that primarily prompted these topics of conversation was Almighty Over All by R. C. Sproul.

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I've heard of that one. Maybe I'll check it out myself sometime.

Why don't you just share your opinion and share what you view as the argument against it and let's see if we can head off the objection at the pass, okay?

God bless

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Well, let me see here. I'll try this from a logic standpoint.

We know that God is omnipotent: He knows everything. (1 John 3:20)
We know that God is eternal: He always has been and he always will be. (Rev 1:8)
We know that God is a God of order.

Therefore, it follows that God is eternaly omnipotent: He knows all throughout all eternity.

If we take these assumptions about God's character then we must assume that God had a plan for everything from the time of creation.

Since God does not make mistakes we have to believe that he knew about the fall and planned for it. Therefore, I believe that God did desire man to fall. He did this for the same reason He created everything. To bring Himself glory.

However, this does not mean that He delighted in it. I don't believe for one minute that God enjoyed seeing His creation turn away from Him.

Reformationist said:

OOOOHHHHH MANNNN!!! I was with you right up until here:



Anyway, alot of people have a problem thinking of God delighting in His wrath but let's consider the nature of God.

Here is an excerpt from Almighty Over All addressing that very thing:

The next question, then, is to ask if God had a motive for changing Eve's inclination. What reason would God have for wanting Eve to fall into sin? Imagine God before the creation of the world. The members of the Trinity are enjoying the fellowship of which we spoke earlier. They are noting their excellencies, praising each other, if you will. He considers His mercy and finds it delightful. And then He considers His wrath. Many of us have difficulty imagining God finding any glory in His wrath, but He does. He is pleased with His wrath. If His wrath exists, and we know from His Word that it does, then we know He is pleased with it. We cannot imagine God looking at His wrath like unwanted extra pounds that He wants to lose, if only He had the power. No, God is as delighted with His wrath as He is with all of His attributes. Suppose He says, "What I'll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath. And on top of that I'll manifest my mercy by showering grace on some of these creatures deserving my wrath." Can you imagine God thinking such a thought? I can, and I'm not alone in this. The Apostle Paul not only speculates that such a line of reasoning is possible with God but that in fact God did reason this way. "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the righes of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Rom. 9:22-24).

God bless

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While RC Sproul is a very learned and wise man I do not agree with him in everything. For example: He is very much against contemporary music in churches today. That is off topic.

As humans we have a hard time balancing God's wrath with His love. I confess that I have had a hard time with this as well.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that God enjoys His wrath because it makes known the riches of His glory. This is from the eternal perspective.

My thinking was more along these lines. (Perhaps I should have been clearer.)

While it was God's will that Adam sin I do not believe God enjoys seeing anybody sin.

Is this making any more sense.

Reformationist said:

I agree. He is only a man either way.

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As are we my friend.

Yes. I do not believe God enjoys seeing someone sin. However, that does not mean that God does not, in some sense, revel in the glory of executing His just judgment. I think people get a picture of this God with a maniacal gleam in His eyes unjustly punishing an otherwise innocent creature. If we would look at things from the perspective that God is not only just but holy then we would see that God's desire to pass judgment upon vessels who are deserving of His wrath doesn't make Him mean, it makes Him just.

Anyway, yes, that does make more sense.

God bless,
Don

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LOL!
Sorry, the mental image that conjured up was rather amusing.

I agree that God enjoys His judgement. Why shouldn't He? It's righteous.

The Holiness of God is something we tend to forget about when discussing these things. (It's also another book by RC.)

God is so holy that the Israelites could not even approach the mountain when Moses went up to recieve the law. He is so Holy that the Ark of the Covenant could not be touched. Even the man who touched it to keep it from falling was struck dead.