women in the church

preacherintraining said:

Paul's core command is that women remain silent (14:34) in church meetings. The word silent is from sigao and means the absence of all noise, whether made by speaking or by anything else. Sigao is also used twice, as you noted about tongue speakers and prophets. Sigao is used in each instance; no sound was to be made by either under certain circumstances.
(1 Co 11:17-35).

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I completely agree that this verse is not to be interpreted to mean complete silence despite the fact that it plainly says so. Because context dictates to limit the statement to a sensible command given the context. Hence, singing and normal speaking is not being addressed at all but only a specific disruptive speech given the context.
Interpreting what this disruptive speech means is crucial to a right understanding of the passage. Applying that right understanding to our current situation is a second challange/ problem, but without first having a correct understanding of the passage, application becomes much more difficult if not impossible, in my opinion.

What do you think the silence is regarding? Would you interpret it as tongues? Since you have pointed out that even in my church the women are not silent, my interpretation must be off. And is Yitzchak your last name? TTYL Jesus loves you!

I think it does mean complete silence. It explicitly says so, and everyone from the time Paul wrote it, until 40 years ago believed it meant what it said.

Well, are the women entirely silent in your church? Or do they sing hymns as well?

I don't believe women were meant by God to administrate a church, just as they are not meant to lead a family. Nothing sexist, it's just that I believe the roles between men and women are to be complementary, not identical.

Paul was discussing order within worship. His principle idea was that God was a God of order, so everyone should participate in worship in an orderly manner that would edify the body. Then Paul gave examples--prophecy, tongues and women.
To take turns and speak one at a time wasnt always a no brainer within these new churches. Many were pagan converts that while worshipping their idols, worked themselves into frenzies. So to them, orderly worship was a new concept.

Paul's consistent theme was building up the body, creating harmony within the body, and unity of the body.

While there were the ones who had no concept of order within worship, there were also those who wanted limited participation. However, Paul wasnt in their camp either. He shows in v26 he wanted everyone to be involved in ministry contributing in accordance to their gifts.

Paul states, "If (women) want to inquire about something, they should ask their husbands at home." Paul was encouraging the women to learn which was very radical for this day and age. The Jewish women were excluded from study, as well as Greeks and Romans. He didnt want them disrupting services however. Paul wasnt making women restrictive in the church, he was restricting behavior that led to chaos.

Yitzchak said:

Concerning context, remember that this is a letter to a specific church about specific problems there. if the problem was that women were preaching and speaking to the assembly then would paul not have said so directly?? For example, could paul have said "I command that the women stop addressing the church and preaching."
How does verse 35 concerning asking questions fit in with that interpretation?

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Verse 33 says ....as in all the churches of all the saints...

Try reading the books of the Bible while ignoring chapters and verses.

Drotar said:

Well, are the women entirely silent in your church? Or do they sing hymns as well?

I don't believe women were meant by God to administrate a church, just as they are not meant to lead a family. Nothing sexist, it's just that I believe the roles between men and women are to be complementary, not identical.

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Drotar, my evil twin...or maybe the other way around
What I get out of it is it means during the teaching, so worship is okay.

preacherintraining said:

Verse 33 says ....as in all the churches of all the saints...

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Once again context. What is in all the churches? The answer is in reading all of verse 33. Which says
" For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. "
My interpretation is God is the author of peace not confusion and that is true in all churches.
However I will add that I believe there are principles which "overlap" and while this is addressing a specific problem in a specific church there are principles of order which in my opinion can be applyed to all churches.
As I stated in an earlier post. First a person must have an accurate understanding of what is being said in 1st corinthians 14 in the context it is written in. This does not guarentee application of the truths there will always be done correctly but at least provides a sure foundation of truth to start from.
The overall context of corinthians 14 is actually found by reading the entire book of Corinthians.(and I might add a reading of the entire scripture helps even more) But it is neccesary to get at least an accurate understanding of the immeadiate context.
The book of corinthians is written by Paul the apostle to a church in Corinth answering specific questions and issues which had occured there. Interwoven are wonderful truths as the Holy spirit inspired Paul to write scripture which would be not only for the Corinthian's benefit but for future churches as well.
My belief is that all scripture has many layers of meanings. I can read a verse or verses and receive edification on dozens of subjects and from many different angles and depths. This is not saying we can make the scripture say whatever we want it to thereby making it meaningless.
"For no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
1st Peter 1:20-21
It is not that I limit the meaning of this passage to the corinthian church. But as I have stated, in order to accurately apply biblical truths we must first understand the context of the passage and then also the context of the entire word of God.
My opinion is what is being taught here has nothing to do with church government, but rather with the orderly conduct of church meetings. In other words, JUST BECAUSE I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY FROM THE LORD, DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM PERMITTED TO SAY IT WHENEVER AND HOWEVER I CHOOSE, I AM TO WAIT UPON THE LORD FOR THE RIGHT TIME AND PLACE.

What is meant by vers 36?

Phoebe said:

What is meant by vers 36?

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Verse 36 reads in the king james
" What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?"

I believe they are rhetorical questions. Which means paul already knew the answer and was not really asking a question but rather making a statement.
The statement I believe he was making was the equivalent in modern english of saying
" calm down and stop trying to monopolize the meeting because you are not the only one with something important to say."
or
"what makes you so special that you can take over the whole meeting"


Some verses which I think relate to this verse are John 3:27, Romans 12:3, 1 Corinthians 1:12, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Corinthians 10:7.
[updown] MY OPINION [/updown]

Here is the rendering of this passage in the message bible (which is a paraphrased version of the bible in very very modern english, slang included.)
" So here's what I want you to do. When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight. If prayers are offered in tongues, two or three's the limit, and then only if someone is present who can interpret what you're saying. Otherwise, keep it between God and yourself. And no more than two or three speakers at a meeting, with the rest of you listening and taking it to heart. Take your turn, no one person taking over. Then each speaker gets a chance to say something from God, and you all learn from eachother. If you choose to speak, you're also responsible for how and when you speak. When we worship the right way, God doesn't stir up confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches -- no exceptions.
Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God's Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarrented speaking. Do you-both men and women- imagine that you're a sacred oracle determining what's right and wrong? Do you think everything revolves around you?
If anyone of you thinks God has something for you to say or has inspired you to do something, pay close attention to what I have written. This is the way the Master wants it. If you won't play by these rules, God can't use you. Sorry. "

I am inclined to agree with this paraphrase.

Lotar said:

Drotar, my evil twin...or maybe the other way around

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*akward moment... Kind of like when Luke discovered Leia was his sister...*

Well, simply put, this town ain't big enough for the two of us whose user accounts end with "otar".

Women belong in leadership in churches and in the home.

preacherintraining wrote:
"Glad you found a friend, but you're both still wrong."

And you are being a little rude, you might think they are wrong, but unless you are infallible you might want to add "in my opinion" since you all are Christians. (right?) Just a thought.
tulc

Guess what folks? The insults are done. Get it back on track or get out of the discussion.

Thank you.

La Bonita Zorilla said:

Women belong in leadership in churches and in the home.

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Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband,
but he will dominate you."

The first passage is just an angel telling the women to deliver a message, not to preach.

The second is a woman telling about her day saying she met someone who knew all about her, this again is not preaching like what Paul is talking about.

The third one is talking about the reception of the holy spirit and men and women knowing that God would be coming again and rejoicing because of it, not preaching.

The fourth passage you list doesn't even mention women.

The fifth refers back to the third passage.

The sixth passage is just a person Paul sent the letter to the Church via. Also, the women he speaks of are ones who did stuff like prayed privately for him, and helped in other, once again, non preaching ways.

The seventh passage is just referring to two women who were fighting and he was telling them to stop fighting.

The eighth passage is just a woman's house telling Paul what had happened, no reference to preaching.

The ninth passage refers to how a woman ought to be as modest as possible when coming to pray to Jesus, nothing about public prayer.

The tenth passage should be obvious. If women were to be silent at church of course Paul would not make a difference between the gifts of men and women. It would be obvious to them!

The eleventh passage just says that a church met at a woman's house, not that she participated.

The twelfth passage says that men and women should dignify themselves. Here is the passage in context.


1 Timothy 3
8 (1) Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, (2) or addicted to much wine (3) or fond of sordid gain,
9 (4) but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10 (5) These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
11 Women must likewise be dignified, (6) not malicious gossips, but (7) temperate, faithful in all things.
12 (8) Deacons must be (9) husbands of only one wife, and (10) good managers of their children and their own households.


It says deacons must be men, so the argument stops there.
As for the Old Testament, that was under the Law of Moses. Debra saved the people because the men at that time were such chickens that God let the women have victory to sort of mock the women in a way. That was paraphrasing. So I hope you see now that none of the women you mentioned preached any at all. Try to read the whole verses next time.



I find most of your rebuttals to Quaffer to be very offensive. For a preacher in training you sure don't carry yourself as someone that desires to be close to God. Not that I agree with you or anything, but you will never "win" any spiritual points by being sarcastic, rude and argumentive. How do you know that Quaffer did not read the whole passages? The way you answer each one of the verses she presented showed a divide and conquer mentality, not becoming of a man of God. One of the very basic qualities of a preacher is to be able to reach people with the message. From your previous posts, I conclude that you and God need to do a lot of work on yourself before you present anything to anyone. I for one was not reached.

Lotar said:

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband,
but he will dominate you."

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So? People used to use Bible to justify slavery and segregation. To use ths symbolic language from a mythological story to justify oppression is reprehensible. Shame.

La Bonita Zorilla said:

So? People used to use Bible to justify slavery and segregation. To use ths symbolic language from a mythological story to justify oppression is reprehensible. Shame.

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Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil."