No One Can Stop Sinning ...What ?

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
I understand your words better than you do!

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And that speaks volumes of your intent. You are not debating nephilimiyr, you are debating what you have preconceived his stand to be.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
According to Paul, however, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 "we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." It goes on to say that "this corruptible MUST put on corruption and this mortal must put on immortality." Earlier in this chapter it says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom." Then it says "oh death where is your sting," then it says "the sting of death is sin." Conclusion? Death will be no more for this group because sin is no more!

There will be an entire generation who attain to sinless perfection and eradicate sin, becoming immortal, and they will attain to this without ever dying!

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1 Corinthians 15:50-54
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Where in this passage do you see it saying that a particular group of people will achieve this perfection on earth? The passage is saying quite clear to me that perfection takes place when the trumpet sounds. When does the trumpet sound? This passage is clearly talking about the return of Christ when the bride is caught up in the clouds. Compare 1 Corinthians 15 with this:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15 is not saying there will be people who reach perfection on earth when Jesus returns. It is saying all, the dead and the living in Christ, will change in a moment when He returns.

Take up the Cross said:
The theological fiction that "Jesus paid for our sins past, present, and future" is just that, fiction. Nowhere in the Bible does it state such a thing.

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For our past sins:

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

For our present sins:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

For our future sins:

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
All have sinned, that doesn't mean I have to sin! If all jump off a bridge, I don't have to do the same!

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Actually if you think about what you just said you will see the error of the logic in that sentence. If all have sinned then yes it means everybody, the whole world, all of mankind. If you say all jump off the bridge then yes everybody jumped including you. It would be different if you said (like mothers often question) if all my friends jumped off the bridge would I have to? No of course not.

I do see the point you were trying to make here however. All have sinned doesn’t mean that all keep sinning only that we all have sinned before (past tense).

Tawhano said:

I don’t see where he ‘blatantly’ denies the power of God.

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Read his posts again, all of them. He clearly says "the bible does not teach that we will ever be sinless in this life."

The Bible most definately says that we will, and it says that if we believe in the power of God, we believe that we can live without sin. It also says anyone who denies that "I can do all things through Messiah who strenthens me" is denying the power of God.

Tawhano said:

It is my opinion that you are reading more into his words than is actually there.

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That's your opinion. However, I stand on God's opinion, and that is, anyone who says "it's impossible to please God," is a liar, and is denying the power we have been given through the Holy Spirit. When one says it's impossible to live without sin in this life, one is saying it's impossible to please God, one might not THINK that's what one is saying, but that doesn't negate that on is IN FACT saying that.

Tawhano said:

I personally think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You speak angry words of self-righteous indignation over a man who can’t see your point of view.

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It's not my point of view, and no, I'm not angry at that, I'm angry at the way he continually denies scripture, ignores it, and then presents himself as a lover of truth. I'm angry that he says one thing, then denies saying it after I prove him wrong scripturally (which by the way is a very old trick).

Tawhano said:

Yes I have. The difference here is that Jesus was without sin. Have you forgotten the words of Christ?

Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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I'm not trying to teach him how to stop sinning! I can't even GET to that point because he doesn't believe it's even possible to stop sinning! Now, if I were saying to him, "here let me show you how to not do this or than sin any more," then I'd be trying to pull the sliver our of my brother's eye,"

Consider this, the Apostles weren't "without sin," and yet look at the ugly things THEY had to say about someone who "cannot cease from sin."

2 Peter 2: 12

But these as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

That's way harsher than any of my words have been. I've been actually quite mild with him in comparison. If you don't think that verse applies to someone who says "you can never stop sinning" read the next verses.

13 And shall recieve the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery AND THAT CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN; beguiling unstable souls; and heart they have exercised with covetous practices; CURSED CHILDREN.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill? I don't think so. Look at the world around us. See the iniquity that abounds? It's all because those who "claim to walk in the light," are teaching everyone "you can never stop sinning in this life."

Tawhano said:

This is an interesting thread and I would like to continue debating but I just finished a thread with a person who used personal attacks to put forth his views and do not wish to get into another one. How about we forgo righteous indignation and debate in a mature matter. Show some of that love you keep talking about.

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If you think I've been immature, wait until you see how "immature" Paul was when he wrote of those who can't control their sinful lusts!

2 Timothy 3: 1
"1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come
2 for men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of them that are good
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God'
5 Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof: from such tuirn away
6 For this is the sart that creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts
7 Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the TRUTH: men of CORRUPT MINDS, REPROBATE CONCERNING THE FAITH
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

Tawhano said:

Here is what I am talking about when I say you are adding something to
others words because you have ‘heard it all’. Nowhere in my post did I
suggest there were degrees of sin.

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You gave two examples, one of a person who sins once and then asks forgiveness, another of a person who keeps on sinning over and over again before asking for forgiveness!

According to the philosophy I've been hearing in these posts, we are all going to keep sinning until the day we die. Evidently they don't realize that sin is sin. He who tells a lie is the same as he who commits a murder, or an adultery. I never "accused" you of saying there are "degrees" of sin, I was trying to "teach you" something. Forgive me. I forget not everyone is eager to learn.

I can't resist though, so I'm going to attempt to explain this to you. Since there are no degrees of sin, and if you offend in one point, you offend in all, therefore, it doesn't matter if you commit adultery one time in your life and then ask forgiveness. If you commit adultery on march 07, 2001, then ask forgiveness, but then on March 09, you tell a little white lie to your boss to avoid discipline, guess what, you are an offender, you are an adulterer all over again!

The point I'm making? In your scenario, the priest commits adultery once, then asks forgiveness. In your opinion, this is righteousness. I can buy this, IF he doesn't commit adultery tomorrow, or next year. If he does, he proves that his "repentance" was not real, for repentance is "turning your back on sin." Thus, in order for your statement to be accurate, then the adultery ends when he asks for forgiveness.

Now, sir, if he does this with lying, and with bearing false witness, and with stealing, and each time he says "what have I done?" Then asks for forgiveness, and then turns his back on that sin (true repentance), dear kind sir, he's going to eventually run out of sins! Sooner or later he would have committed them all, sought forgiveness of them, and then turned his back on them never to repeat them again. Suddenly, he's sinless!

Yet, I'm being told by many in these posts that it's impossible to live without sin. Therefore "repentance" which is "turning your back on the sin," is therefore "impossible" according to them.

I challenge anyone to look up the word repentance and you will see that it means to "turn your back on the sin."

Let's talk about "remission." According to the book of Acts, and other epistles Messiah died for the "remission" of sins. Look up "remission."
Doctors still use that word. It means a disease has "stopped it's onslought and the symptoms are gone." If my sins are in remission, they have CEASED! Any doctor who says "your disease is in remission" when you are sitting there wracked with the disease is guilty of malpractice. If the disease kills you, he's most likely going to get very seriously sued by your family, because he has declared you in "remission" when the disease was still evident and active.

I'm not talking rocket science here, I'm talking common sense! Remission is remission, it means that Messiah died to literally "take away your sins," not just "take away the penalty for your sins."

When you say that you can "never stop sinning," you are denying the work of the cross and saying that Messiah died in vain.

You're saying alot worse than that, even if you don't realize it. It doesn't matter if you don't understand how terrible it is to say "you can never stop sinning in this life."

If you think I'm "making a mountain out of this," just wait and see what Messiah makes of it when he returns!

Tawhano said:

Nowhere do I suggest that one is less guilty than another. It isn’t the sin I was drawing attention to was it? It was clearly the actions of the men when faced with the sin. One man did not repent to God the other did. Try reading my post without the preconceive notion you heard it all before and you will see the point I am trying to make.

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I never said you said any of this. I was trying to show you the CONCLUSION of your example. If the man truly "repents" it means he stops doing it! There are only ten commandments sir. If I break all of them and repent each time I do it (as is the case in your example), like I said, after the tenth repentance, I'm done, I'm sinless.

Therefore, if you are using this story to defend the notion that I will sin until the day I die, I have to assume that somewhere down the line, this priest repeats the adultery, or at least he does SOME sort of sin, and since there are no "degrees" of sin, and if you offend in one point you've offended all, therefore, it is clear that your understanding of "repentance" and mine are two different things. Yet, I get my understanding of repentance from the scriptures and from the Holy Spirit, who, like Messiah says to me "go and sin no more," whenever I ask forgiveness.

Tawhano said:

What is tragic is that you are a slave to your anger. You can’t even participate in a friendly debate without becoming emotionally distressed. Can you quote one scripture that says someone will not achieve their salvation because they believe they are weak in the flesh and will sometimes get it wrong?

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You don't know me at all, how can you say I'm a "slave" to anger? Anger is NOT a sin, sir. God himself gets angry, and so did the Apostles. Anger without a cause is a sin, and just because you think it's NOTHING for me to get angry about doesn't make it so. You clearly do not understand the gravity of what has been said in these posts. This person has not been saying he believes he's weak and is going to mess up, that I could live with, he's saying that it's "impossible" to do anything "but" mess up and be weak, and that we will stay that way until the end of our lives! That is not faith teaching and it's not believing. I may indeed mess up my whole life, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's POSSIBLE for me to walk even as Messiah walked.[/quote]

Tawhano said:

If a person believes that but still strives to be perfect then how are they sons of Satan?

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He has said (and others have said in other posts) that it's futile to try and be perfect, because it can't be done until the return of Messiah. He has also said that you can sin while "walking in the Spirit." Go look it up! I'm not reading into it, just go back and read all his posts. I could cut and paste the statements of which I refer, but if I do, you'll accuse me of "unjust anger" again, and of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm in a catch 22 here!

Tawhano said:

This is not a salvation issue. Salvation comes to those who endure to the end. Regardless of how many times he misses the mark, as long as he turns to the Lord for forgiveness he will be made perfect again. This is why Christ was made a sacrifice for us.

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Ah! Now I see where your frame of reference is. So, we keep getting "cleaned up" over and over again. Messiah cleans us up when we ask forgiveness, now we are "perfect," until we go wallow in the mire again, then we have to go get cleaned up again!

"the dog has returned to his vomit again, and the pig to wallowing in the mire."

Sir, that is NOT repentance, I'm sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

If "sin" isn't a salvation issue, then Messiah died in vain to "cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness."

The cleansing YOU are talking about is figurative, the cleansing the scriptures are talking about is REAL CLEANING, where the sins are no more.

I'm sorry for you if you can't believe that. Now, you may feel like I've been yelling at you, but trust me, I haven't. I've been pretty mild about this under the circumstances, when you consider priests are molesting children based on the idea that they can just go get "cleaned" up later by the "saving grace of Messiah."


Shalom

J. Dean

Tawhano said:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Where in this passage do you see it saying that a particular group of people will achieve this perfection on earth?

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Where in the passage? Right there in the passage you quoted!

"We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed."

This, dear sir, says clearly that we don't have to die to be "changed," into an immortal creature. Furthermore, when the last trumpet sounds we will not all be "in the clouds" at the time, we will be on the EARTH. Therefore, if I'm "alive" and on the "earth" at the last trumpet, and I'm changed into an immortal creature, it's happening "in this life." That is common sense. My life has not ended at the sound of the trumpet. I'm not dead am I? I'm not in heaven yet, because the trumpet has just sounded and I'm changed at that same "moment." Into an immortal being.

Will this happen to me while I'm in sin? Not according to the very text you are quoting. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit," and "niether can corruption inherit incorruption."

Let me ask you basic 101, what causes me to be mortal? What is the cause of my ultimate death?

SIN!

Thus, if I become immortal, it's because there is no more sin in me!

This passage does not say the last trumpet is when I'm made sinless, it says it's when I'm made "immortal," and I cannot be made immortal if I have sin in me! For sin is death! And to be carnally minded is death.

That is why verse 56 says "the sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the law
and it's also why verse 57 says
But thanks be to God which gives us the victory through our Lord Yahshua Messiah
Then in verse 58 he concludes that you should therefore CONTINUE and be UNMOVABLE in the WORK of the Lord (ceasing from sin) for "your labor is not in vain."

In other words, we take part in this ridding of sin that results in our final translation into immortal status!

This "changing" occurs to people AT the last trumpet, but will you go to heaven "in the clouds" BEFORE the sounding of the trumpet. Not according to what I read. Therefore, you are alive and on this earth when it happens. How say the false prophets of this world that you "have to die to be sinless?" And how say the false prophets that you won't be "sinless" in this life time? they'd have to know for SURE that you aren't one of these that will be changed though they never slept. In order to know that, they'd have to know that you aren't going to be on the earth, alive, when Messiah returns, and guess what "no man knows the hour or the day."

Furthermore,

Our mortal bodies will only be quickened if we "through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body."

"Romans 8: 11
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Yahshua from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Messiah from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.
12Therefore brethren, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live."

We therefore who are alive on the earth at the sounding of the trumpet will have "mortified the deeds of our body," and through the Spirit made ourselves sinless, by faith! Thus, when the moment occurs, we will already be "prepared" for immortality by putting off of the sins that so easily beset us. We then can enter into the immortality of the resurrection, without ever having tasted death!

In fact, Messiah is WAITING for us to "repent" of all our sins, and walk in faith unto righteous perfection. He is bound by his word to cast us out if he returns and finds us "eating and drinking with the drunken, and smiting our fellow servants." Therefore he's longsuffering to US, not willing that any of us should perish, but that we should all come to true REPENTANCE, and cease from our own evil doings!

2 Peter 3: 9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (to return) as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward (he includes himself and everyone he's writing to) not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So you see, my dear, soul searching friend, we are "hastening the day of the Lord," when we mortify the deeds of our bodies through the power of the Spirit.

2 Peter 3: 11- 12
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for AND HASTING UNTO the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

We're not waiting for Messiah to return, friend, he's waiting on us, but he won't wait forever. There comes a day when he says we shall have "time no longer," then the trumpet sounds, and whoever has taken the commands to obey to heart, and has "purified himself even as he is pure" will be translated, and the mystery of godliness, which is "Messiah in you, the hope of glory will be finished.

Revelation 10: 6 - 7
"6 And sware by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel WHEN HE SHALL BEGIN TO SOUND, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED AS HE HAS DECLARED TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS."


You know, the time has come for this message to be spread. You may have a hard time receiving everything I've said in this post, and maybe you will ignore it like others. But, I have to try, if I love the brethren, I have to try!

The time is short!

Silver Surfer said:

You mean that you have no control over lying ?

To say that sinning is impossible ..is in effect saying that Satan's power is stronger than God's.
Is God so weak that he cannot provide a person with the ability to not commit known sins ?

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That is a controlled sin. I wish to ask you what goes through your mind when an incredibly attractive woman walks by. I am fairly certain that it is a sin. This is what is meant by sins. That is just the first that comes to mind. It is hard to control certain thoughts, however you can supress them. No matter what you do there is some sin your life. To turn away from sin is to turn away from everything that you know is wrong. If you find yourself committing a sin the Lord asks that you pray to him for forgiveness and that you turn also away from that. There are many circumstances that may come up in your life where sin may come up to bat. when this happens we must respond accordingly.

serendipity79 said:

That is a controlled sin. I wish to ask you what goes through your mind when an incredibly attractive woman walks by. I am fairly certain that it is a sin. This is what is meant by sins. That is just the first that comes to mind. It is hard to control certain thoughts, however you can supress them. No matter what you do there is some sin your life. To turn away from sin is to turn away from everything that you know is wrong. If you find yourself committing a sin the Lord asks that you pray to him for forgiveness and that you turn also away from that. There are many circumstances that may come up in your life where sin may come up to bat. when this happens we must respond accordingly.

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Lust in itself, when it hits your "mind" like this is not sin! when lust has "conceived" it brings forth sin. If you nip that thought in the bud you haven't sinned. If you let it get down into your heart, so that you are "committing that sin" in your heart, you now have a sin on your hands.

don't you see temptation is NOT a sin!

Messiah was "tempted in all ways, yet without sin."

This means Messiah had those kinds of thoughts too! Amazing huh?

don't beat yourself up over thoughts that pop into your head.

committing fornication with a woman "in your heart," means that it is in your heart to commit the act the MINUTE you are afforded an opportunity!

C'mon people, don't let Satan deceive you. He'll put thoughts like that in your head every second if he can get you to believe the thought is a sin!

Sin is "transgression of the law," not "thinking about the possibility that I could transgress."

If what you describe is the same as the act, then all writers who write novels depicting sinful acts are guilty of those acts themselves because they thought of them up in their heads.

Now, be careful, it's true some authors who write about sinful acts do so because they have those acts in their hearts and are endorsing them, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

Just because a bad thought pops into my head from time to time doesn't mean I'm guilty of a sin!

We ARE to subdue all of our thought to the mind of Messiah, but the bad thoughts that come into our head are not necessarily sin.


Shalom
J.Dean

I've been discussing this debate with my lovely and very virtuous wife (who also agrees by the way that I should calm down and be nicer), and she was struck by an earlier argument.

The individual said that if he sinned it was enough that he "desired" to be perfect. This same individual in the same post said that as long as, when he sins, he has a desire NOT to sin, that makes him a "believer." (I'm really paraphrasing here but that is the gist of the argument).

My wife found this comical because she "wants" to be a millionaire. Using that logic, she can now go down to Walmart and write 250,000 dollars in checks, and when they call her demanding to know why she bounced all those check she can say "but I WANT to be a millionaire."

I thought that was funny, and so true.

The truth is, if you want to be a millionare badly enough you will find a way to do it.

Furthermore if you "don't want to sin," you wouldn't do it. If you sin, you had to have wanted to sin, otherwise, who was there twisting your arm to do something against your will?

I suppose if such a person committed adultery they could convince themselves they were raped, because, "they didn't want to do it," therefore, it wasn't "consenting sex." Oh man, let's get real here!

A BAD COACH
By J. Dean

Coach Frank Smith strode confidently into the locker room of the Saints and smiled at the awaiting team. Tonight was "winner take all," the culmination of a glowing season for the pro basketball team that everyone said would not even make the finals! Yet, this team had put their heart and soul into what became their best season ever, and had proved all the nay sayers wrong. Tonight they faced their arch rivals, the Demons, for the tournament game.

The Demons were the favorites, and had wreaked havoc against the Saints every time they faced off.
The team members sat on their bench, looking apprehensive, awaiting the final "pep talk" for which Coach Smith was famous. Beating the Demons in a tournament game on their own turf
would not be an easy task, and the team was understandably in need of encouragement. The
Coach stepped up before them looking undaunted and unafraid, and smiled at his team warmly.

"I just wanted to say a few words before you go out there," he started out, as if this were the
first time he'd ever spoken to them before they hit the court. "I know the Demons are a tough team."

He glanced around, examining the nods of agreement on the faces of his players. "I realize they have beaten us every time we've played them, and rightly so, because let's face it,
they're just the better team! We just simply are NEVER going to be good enough to beat them,
we're only human after all!" He looked around at the forlorn and downcast expressions of his
team, beaten now in their own minds before the match even began. "But look guys," he
continued, still smiling, "I want you to know that the owner realizes you can never win this
tournament. He knew from the very beginning that you would fail, and here's the good news, he
already purchased the trophy for you before the tournament even began!

According to the league you've already won! So, just get out there and play the best game you can, and don't worry about scoring, heck, you can even just sit around on the edge of the court, or go out and drink some beer in the stands, you are already declared the winners, the game is just a formality!"

When you read the above story, do you think that the Saints will go out and try to actually score and win? Do you believe the Saints will be excited about being winners?

How many of you are wondering if Coach Smith might be working secretly for the Demons?
How many of you want to fire him on the spot? More importantly, how many of you would be
interested in a basketball tournament where you knew the trophy could be purchased for the
players, and that it didn't matter how the players actually played? How interesting would the
sport be?

Yet, consider this if you will: religious people are being given this same exact pep talk
from pulpits in churches all over the world. They are being told that they already have won the
battle against sin, and that they no longer have to fight to BEAT their personal Demons. In
short, they are taught that their lives and all their struggles are meaningless, and that God has so
little faith in them (and in his own abilities to teach them to win) that he has simply
purchased the prize for them and now expects nothing from them except their gratitude!

Speaking as a parent, how mature would my children be and what kind of people
would they become if, instead of teaching them how to be productive adults, I merely told them
to remain children and then took care of them and performed all of their responsibilities for
them? Yet, this is the very image of the heavenly Father and His relationship that these "bad
coaches" paint for you from almost every pulpit in the world! I have felt called to correct the damage done to the "team" by one thousand and seven hundred years of "bad coaches."

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
My wife found this comical because she "wants" to be a millionaire. Using that logic, she can now go down to Walmart and write 250,000 dollars in checks, and when they call her demanding to know why she bounced all those check she can say "but I WANT to be a millionaire."

I thought that was funny, and so true.

The truth is, if you want to be a millionare badly enough you will find a way to do it.

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Then why don't you stop sinning? You obviously have a passion for this topic so why don’t you channel that passion into practicing what you preach? That is what I find ‘funny’ about people who insist that you can live without sin and they themselves do not live without sin.

The way I see it there are two major points of contention in this thread. No I am not talking about arrogance and belligerence.

To me it looks like the definition of ‘being perfect’ and sin is not mutually agreed upon. Sin, for example, is looked upon, by those who believe we will sometimes miss the mark, is any action by us that is not pleasing to God (simplified statement) and to the people here who believe you can be totally free from sin on earth it seems to be breaking major points of the law.

So to some of us here it is a sin when we lose our temper, have doubts about our faith, ignore someone in need, gossip and other things we humans get caught up in. To others it is breaking the major laws; murder, fornication, that sort of thing. Keeping the Sabbath was even mentioned earlier on in this thread. I would like to address these two points so that we can be on the same track about just what it is sin and perfection means.

I will tackle sin and the law first.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which law? The Ten Commandments only or all of the laws handed down to Israel? Which begs another question; is everybody to follow the laws handed down to Israel, both Jews and Gentles? This was a question that was answered in the book of Acts.

Acts 15:7-11
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The answer they agreed upon was this:

Acts 15:19-20
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

What about keeping the Sabbath? If that was so important why did they not write to them to keep the Sabbath? In another place we read this:

Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

So if sin is transgression of the law and Peter didn’t think it was prudent to expect the Gentiles to follow the Jewish laws we need to ask ourselves which law is it that we sin by transgressing?

Romans 2:15
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

So we see that the law is the law written in our hearts. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit the law written there is from God. When we do something that is not pleasing to God the Holy Spirit will let us know. The Holy Spirit will guide us if we let Him and when we wander a bit off track He will let us know.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is my understanding of what sin is. What are other people’s views here?

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
I forget not everyone is eager to learn.

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On the contrary, I am eager to learn. When you humble yourself and realize you don’t have all the answers then you may have something to teach me. So far all I have learned is that you believe you and you alone know the truth.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
You don't know me at all, how can you say I'm a "slave" to anger? Anger is NOT a sin, sir.

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Then what sin were you confessing to in post# 93? Perhaps I misunderstood you.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
He has said (and others have said in other posts) that it's futile to try and be perfect, because it can't be done until the return of Messiah. He has also said that you can sin while "walking in the Spirit." Go look it up! I'm not reading into it, just go back and read all his posts. I could cut and paste the statements of which I refer, but if I do, you'll accuse me of "unjust anger" again, and of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm in a catch 22 here!

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Why would I accuse you of unjust anger if you provide a link to something they posted which you believe to be incorrect? I believe that to be a poor excuse and nothing more.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
The cleansing YOU are talking about is figurative, the cleansing the scriptures are talking about is REAL CLEANING, where the sins are no more.

I'm sorry for you if you can't believe that.

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You must not believe it either otherwise you would have overcome the sin you confess to in post# 93. The whole point of Jesus sacrificing Himself is the reconciliation of mankind to God through the forgiveness of sin. His sacrifice was complete and done once and for all mankind’s sins. Yet the Bible tells us that if we sin we have an advocate to present us to God on Judgment day. So if we are cleansed and sin no more why do we need an advocate? Our sins are blotted out by His blood. We still have sin but they are dead in our bodies by the power of God.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
Ironic, isn't it, I'm attempting to convince people that they don't HAVE to sin, and I commit sin in the process. See how hopeless it would all be if we don't rely on the Holy Spirit?

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It’s more than ironic it is hypocrisy.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
I'm sorry for you if you can't believe that. Now, you may feel like I've been yelling at you, but trust me, I haven't. I've been pretty mild about this under the circumstances, when you consider priests are molesting children based on the idea that they can just go get "cleaned" up later by the "saving grace of Messiah."

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This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my two scenarios. The pastor who was having the affair did not repent to the Lord, he continued in his sin until he was caught and then asked his congregation for forgiveness. Just like the priest who molest children are not repentitive but continue to do so until they are caught (and apparently even after that). That to me is what the scriptures mean about being a slave to sin. A sin that controls your life instead of the other way around.

TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Said:
Ah! Now I see where your frame of reference is. So, we keep getting "cleaned up" over and over again. Messiah cleans us up when we ask forgiveness, now we are "perfect," until we go wallow in the mire again, then we have to go get cleaned up again!

"the dog has returned to his vomit again, and the pig to wallowing in the mire."

Sir, that is NOT repentance, I'm sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

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1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Are you saying that this isn’t true then?

Tawhano said:

Then why don't you stop sinning? You obviously have a passion for this topic so why don’t you channel that passion into practicing what you preach? That is what I find ‘funny’ about people who insist that you can live without sin and they themselves do not live without sin.

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Hurrah! someone here finaly get's it. J dean wants people to believe I'm some kind of a horrible, evil hypocrate because I don't believe in what he preaches but who is worse one who don't believe or one who believes and doesn't practise it?

So J dean says I don't believe in the power of God, which is a lie, but only he does. Well he must love sinning more than he loves God then since he claims he believes in God's Power but he doesn't use it or ask for it to help him from sinning. I mean which is it TwoWitnessesUSdotcom? Love for sin or love for God? I really don't understand how anybody can sit here and preach one thing but then show he can't even practise it. In the end I have to conclude that you either don't believe in the power of God to stop yourself from sinning or you are not a believer nor a lover of anything righteous and of God otherwise why are you still sinning???

Tawhano said:

The way I see it there are two major points of contention in this thread. No I am not talking about arrogance and belligerence.

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There is none more arrogant, sir, than he who thinks he does not have to keep God's moral laws.

Tawhano said:

To me it looks like the definition of ‘being perfect’ and sin is not mutually agreed upon. Sin, for example, is looked upon, by those who believe we will sometimes miss the mark, is any action by us that is not pleasing to God (simplified statement) and to the people here who believe you can be totally free from sin on earth it seems to be breaking major points of the law.

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"major points of the law?" We're talking here about a commandment of Messiah, that we "love God with all our hearts, and love our neighbor as ourselves." Do you honestly think you can trivialize the commandments of Yahshua Messiah? I fear for you sir.

Tawhano said:

So to some of us here it is a sin when we lose our temper, have doubts about our faith, ignore someone in need, gossip and other things we humans get caught up in.

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Actually in 1 John 3 ;23 he makes it clear that the commandment we are to obey is to "love one another." This Messiah commanded us to do. If we love our neighbor we aren't going to gossip, lose our temper without cause, or doubt our faith, or falsely accuse, or ignore him in his time of need. Sir, you do play games here with words and definitions. I'm sorry, but it's true!

So what about "love God with all your hearts?" He never mentions this in 1 John 3: 23. That is because earlier in the letter he explains that any man who says "I love God," but doesn't love his brother is a liar, and that you can't say "I love God," whom you haven't seen, if you don't love your brother who you can see! It's just common sense.

Read 1 Corinthians 13 if you want to know how love behaves and doesn't behave. Anything that is not out of love is breaking the commandment of Messiah!

Tawhano said:

To others it is breaking the major laws; murder, fornication, that sort of thing. Keeping the Sabbath was even mentioned earlier on in this thread. I would like to address these two points so that we can be on the same track about just what it is sin and perfection means.

I will tackle sin and the law first.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which law?

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I can't believe you think you can trivialize the commandment of Messiah in this way! If I love God and love my neighbor I will keep ALL the laws that are ever written which apply to "loving God," and "loving my neighbor."

Tawhano said:

The Ten Commandments only or all of the laws handed down to Israel? Which begs another question; is everybody to follow the laws handed down to Israel, both Jews and Gentles? This was a question that was answered in the book of Acts....


The answer they agreed upon was this:

Acts 15:19-20
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

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Oh, I see, so since they didn't specifically mention the sabbath day here, it's ok to break it? Well, they didn't mention murder and rape here either, so I guess it's ok to do those too? I know what you will say, "you are putting words in my mouth." Let the Holy Spirit be your conscience sir but you most definately did say that if a law wasn't specifically mentioned here in 15: 19-20, that the Apostles agreed it was not necessary for gentiles to keep that law!

Tawhano said:

What about keeping the Sabbath? If that was so important why did they not write to them to keep the Sabbath? In another place we read this:

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If we have the right to pick and choose which of the ten commandments we have to follow, then who are you to judge an adulterer? The same God who said "honor my sabbath day" also said "do not commit adultery." He wrote both of these rules on the same stone, at the same moment in time, and delivered them to the people all equal. If the 4th commandment does not have to be obeyed (so say you) then what's to say I have to obey any of them?

It's one of the ten commandments, it's just as important as "thou shalt not murder."

Tawhano said:

Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

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You do err sir. It does not say "let no man judge you for not keeping the sabbath day," it says "let no man judge you "in respect of" an holy day, etc. This means he's saying let no man judge you in how you "respect" or "keep" these days. I have to be keeping them in order for someone to judge or criticize me in how I keep them! You're saying we don't keep them at all!

The Messiah and the Apostles all kept the sabbath day. If you don't think so, you just haven't read the gospels, or the Acts. You are just ignoring plain truth!

Tawhano said:

So if sin is transgression of the law and Peter didn’t think it was prudent to expect the Gentiles to follow the Jewish laws we need to ask ourselves which law is it that we sin by transgressing?

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This question is answered so many times in the New Testament I marvel that you could ask it. Read 1 John 3: 23-24, in fact read all of 1 John! Your questions will all be answered.

Tawhano said:

Romans 2:15

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)[/I]

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I wanted to focus on the main theme of this verse you've quoted. "We do by nature the things contained in the law." This means we are keeping the law by the Holy Spirit, and not by the letter, or fleshly observance. Nevertheless, we are still keeping it! We are a law unto ourselves only if we do the works contained in the law through our hearts. How say you in one breath that the law is done away in Messiah and gentiles don't have to keep it, then in the next breath say "I have the law written in my heart and mind?" If the law is in your heart and mind, it's not done away with sir. That's just common sense!

Tawhano said:

So we see that the law is the law written in our hearts. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit the law written there is from God. When we do something that is not pleasing to God the Holy Spirit will let us know. The Holy Spirit will guide us if we let Him and when we wander a bit off track He will let us know.

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This is exactly right! I'm shocked and amazed that you said this, and yet you maintain that we don't have to keep the ten commandments (or at least you say we don't have to keep all of them and can ignore the 4th) I tell you now, the Holy Spirit is not going to let you get away with disobeying the ten commandments. That's the starting point.

You say we have a problem in our definition of sin? You then say that some people are worried about "gossip" and "not meeting others needs," etc. Man, that makes no sense at all that they'd be worried about those thing when they aren't even worried about keeping the ten commandments, and if fact you've said that we don't have to worry about keeping them (or at least the 4th anyway). Thus, there is a disparity in YOUR definition of what is sin, and what is keeping the law, there is no disparity in my definition for I let Messiah define what is "keeping the law," and that is defined by my love for God, and my love for my neighbor. Thus, if I love God and love my neighbor as Messiah did, I am above the law, for I will, out of my Spiritual nature obey the law, and do not even need to be familiar with the law!

Tawhano said:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is my understanding of what sin is. What are other people’s views here?

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Amen to that! Yet, if you disobey the ten commandments, God's moral law, how dwells the love of God in you? You've said that we don't have to keep the 4th commandment, thus you deny the written law, the moral law, and have decided you can pick and choose which of God's moral mandates you can break! I don't recognize this as love, and the Spirit does not bear witness with me that it is love.

As far as your thinly veiled attack against the spirit of my posts I say this, if being angry and speaking harshly to those who are hypocrites, and those who are "brute beasts," and who refuse to believe they can ever stop sinning and please God, if harsh words against such an one is "sin" then Messiah was guilty of this sin, and so were several of the Apostles.

What you fail to understand, is that when someone denies that they can stop sinning what they are saying is that Messiah does not dwell in their flesh, and has no power over their flesh, and my friend, that is Spirit of Antimessiah (antichrist if you will). (See 1 John 4)

There is only one unforgiveable sin, that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the mark of the Beast, must be the same as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because he who accepts the mark has no forgiveness, and as we know the only unforgiveable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Logic dictates that Spirit blasphemy and the mark of the Beast are one in the same sin.

When someone says that no one can stop sinning (by the power of the Holy Spirit,) and they quote 1 John 1: 8), and thus make everyone who has faith in the power of the Holy Spirit "a liar," what they are doing is saying that, if I stop sinning, I've done this by the "power of lies," or by the "power of devils." This is the same thing the Pharisees did when they said Messiah casts out demons by the power of the prince of demons, and Messiah told them they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

When they say that the righteousness I seek and believe for is an "unholy thing," and is a "lie" they do blaspheme the Holy Spirit who is the one urging me to seek this righteousness, and helping me to achieve it! They do blaspheme the Holy Spirit! You may say that I'm evil for telling them this, or that I have a "devil," but that's no surprise because the same was said of Messiah!

They blaspheme the Holy Spirit when they deny the power of the Holy Spirit to make you righteous and holy! You say I'm making a mountain out of a molehill? I say that you just wait and see what Messiah makes of this!

Good day to you sir,

J. Dean

Tawhano said:

On the contrary, I am eager to learn. When you humble yourself and realize you don’t have all the answers then you may have something to teach me. So far all I have learned is that you believe you and you alone know the truth.

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Sir do not comfort yourself that you are safe in numbers and that so many believe as you do, and so few believe as I do that makes you right. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be who find it!

I am not the only one who believes this way. You are very sadly mistaken. The big thing is, the Apostles believed this way and taught it!

Tawhano said:

Then what sin were you confessing to in post# 93? Perhaps I misunderstood you.

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I was confessing to a sin that I didn't commit, evidently. First the man said he wasn't denying that we could be perfect in Messiah's power, so I apologized for accusing him of this, then he turned around and said it openly, so I rescinded the apology. My original assessment of him was evidently right on. It's no sin to apologize for an offense that you did not commit!

Tawhano said:

You must not believe it either otherwise you would have overcome the sin you confess to in post# 93.

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"It's not that I have already attained, or that I am already perfect, but I hope for that which is not seen"

At least I have hope, you and your "friends" on the other hand have no hope of ever attaining for you say it's impossible to attain in this life!

Tawhano said:

It’s more than ironic it is hypocrisy.

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Oh, I see, so if I say I believe in Messiah's power and that if I walk in him that someday I will be perfect, I'm an hypocrite the next time I sin? You, however, claim to already BE perfect through Messiah, and that you are already "walking in the Spirit," and yet, when you sin it's NOT hypocricy?

Wow!

So, let me get this straight, you say it's impossible to stop sinning, you have no intention of ever doing so in this life, and that Messiah is not capable of keeping you from falling because of your free will, and then claim to have the "Holy Spirit" and the "faith that moves mountains," yet you cannot stop sinning, and you lecture ME on what is an hypocrite?

Amazing!

Tawhano said:

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my two scenarios. The pastor who was having the affair did not repent to the Lord, he continued in his sin until he was caught and then asked his congregation for forgiveness. Just like the priest who molest children are not repentitive but continue to do so until they are caught (and apparently even after that). That to me is what the scriptures mean about being a slave to sin. A sin that controls your life instead of the other way around.

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Like I said, sin is sin whether I feel bad about it or not, whether I ask forgiveness for it or not, whether I wait until I'm caught and ask forgiveness. You have so much as said sin is only sin if I don't "feel bad about it" or "ask forgiveness." I'm not even going to waste my time trying to show you how wrong this philosophy is!

Tawhano said:

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Are you saying that this isn’t true then?

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Ah, I see. So, you conclude that because God forgives, it is proof in and of itself that he expects us to fail? What kind of parent says to their child "that's ok son, I forgive you, because I know your a screw up and you're never going to get it right anyway?" Yet, that is your argument, whether you realize it or not. That God provided a way of grace and forgiveness because he knew we were NEVER going to stop sinning, and he knew we are hopeless screw ups!

I can't even imagine telling my child that my forgiveness is offered to him or her because I know they are perpetual screw ups and can't get anything right!

No wonder the world is in the mess it's in, when those that claim to "walk in the light" have this sort of view of forgiveness!

hello, I am a returning customer to this thread.

I have been away and am now filing through this looooong thread... Unfortunately I currently I have an itchy trigger finger.

My thanks to those who have been mature and respectful in their posts. If those who are unable to be respectful continue posting things "unsalted by kindness" I will be closing this thread.

On another note.

It has been pointed out by myself, Tawhano and others that there are varying definitions of "sin" varying from "slavery to sin" (an attitude of life) to "immediate sin" (one-time deals). It is MY considered opinion that the Bible deals with both these concepts and that merely calling it all "sin" is going to by default create these apparently contradictory verses over which you argue.

Saying I am right and you are wrong is only going to annoy people and do nothing to further my cause; may I recommend that those who believe this way find other ways to argue their points than to resort to "yes it does" "no it doesn't" "yes it does" "no it doesn't" arguments... they are tiresome to read and quite irritating.

Ruhama said:

hello, I am a returning customer to this thread.

My thanks to those who have been mature and respectful in their posts. If those who are unable to be respectful continue posting things "unsalted by kindness" I will be closing this thread.

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I will no longer be posting to this thread. IN FACT I probably won't waste my valuable time here at all.

I find it fascinating that those who propose varying definitions of sin, and varying degrees, and say there's a "difference between sinning and being a slave to sin," make these arguments in blatant disregard of scripture. Furthermore, their "opinions" are just that, and they offer no concrete scriptural evidence.

I have concluded in my own heart that Christianity as a religion is so far gone now, they don't even know what "sin" is, and what "walking in the Spirit is."

Rightly did I abandon Christianity as a religion, for her sins have reached up to heaven and God has remembered her iniquities.

You can call my warnings, and my hard sayings "immaturity," however there is no one more "immature" in the Spirit than he who insists on staying "in the flesh," going from "sin to sin," and all the while claiming to walk in the light.

What really galls the Holy Spirit within me is the general attitude that says I'm a hypocrite because I believe in the Power of the Spirit to "cleanse me from all unrighteousness." If I say it's possible through Messiah's power to walk without sin in this life, then I'm a hypocrite if I seek forgiveness of sins and apologies for making mistakes. Yet, these same people that call me an hypocrite state PLAINLY that they have no intention of ceasing from sin, do not believe such a thing is possible, and therefore will "continue in sin" for the rest of their lives so that "grace may abound."

In fact, they tell me plainly that they believe forgiveness is "wasted" if they don't keep on sinning.

These are people that I have no desire to associate with, not even in a forum like this. Their consciences are so seared as to be beyond repair. God has given them up to a reprobate mind and their judgment is not going to slumber.

Call me hateful, call me "immature," I don't care. The truth is the truth! I would be remiss as a true believer if I did not point these things out.

This will most definately be my last post.

For those of you who have ears to hear, let them hear.

The rest of you, Messiah shall judge you.

I said this once, I'll say it again.

For those of you who think they can "never stop sinning"

THE LORD REBUKE YOU!

J. Dean

Heb 9:25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself.

The Torah taught repeated repentance through sacrifices and the Day of Atonement, not utter perfection in living.

David was considered righteous, a man after God's own heart - yet he was an adulterer and murderer. He sought repeated repentance and righteousness, but he still sinned throughout his life.

Rom 4:5 But those who depend on faith, not on deeds, and who believe in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is this faith that God takes into account in order to put them right with himself.

This is what David meant when he spoke of the happiness of the person whom God accepts as righteous, apart from anything that person does: "Happy are those whose wrongs are forgiven, whose sins are pardoned! Happy is the person whose sins the Lord will not keep account of !"

No.

Rom 4:2 If he was put right with God by the things he did, he would have something to boast about---but not in God's sight. The scripture says, "Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." A person who works is paid wages, but they are not regarded as a gift; they are something that has been earned. But those who depend on faith, not on deeds, and who believe in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is this faith that God takes into account in order to put them right with himself.

Name me all the righteous people in the Bible.
Now list for me all the ones who stopped sinning when they began following God.

I believe that is enough Scriptural evidence to support my view.

This topic is of special interest to me but also it brings up old hurts. I was baptized and received the Holy Spirit back in 1980. I attended church services regularly, twice on Sunday and a home meeting during the week. I prayed often, always in the morning when I got up to start my day. I saw people being healed by the power of God. I saw lives dramatically changed. My life was dramatically changed as well. I was your typical stereotype sailor; a woman in every port, drank till I couldn’t stand, did drugs and other things that I am not so proud of. All that changed. God worked a miracle in my life and saved me from my self.

I once believe that we could be sinless. For ten years I battled weakness in my flesh. I sought for advice on how to overcome these weaknesses. I prayed and fast often about these things. I believed and confessed that through Christ we could do all things. I even wrote a song about it and sang it at a church concert, but deep down I felt like a failure because I couldn’t obtain power over these things. Finally I came to the conclusion that because I couldn’t overcome these weaknesses that I must not be worthy of God’s love and I stopped going to church.

I am again searching for the truth and the path back to God. I still have bitterness to overcome and I have no faith in religion at all. I rely on this and other forums to build me up by challenging me to search the scriptures for the truth. I have had many of my beliefs challenged and found wanting. I have also found new beliefs as well as had old beliefs reaffirmed. The one thing I am sure of is that nobody has all the answers.

Despite TwoWitnessesUSdotcom claim he is leaving this thread I would still like to explore this further. I have a couple post that I am working on and will post them as soon as possible.

What I believe from reading the two sides of this debate is that the differences lie in the definitions of being made perfect and sin. It is that I would like to explore.

In His Love,
Tawhano

P.S. Yes Tawahno is my real name, in Maori, although spelt incorrectly. It should have been Tewhano. Why I spell it incorrectly is a long story and not really interesting at all. I apologize to any Maori who may be offended by my misuse of their language.

cool I look forward to your posts.

What does Tewhano mean, if I may ask?

On another note....

My personal belief about what you said - I believe we are ABLE to overcome sins in theory but I really think in order for us to do it we need to follow God's lead. He will help us step by step to overcome one thing at a time but sometimes it is too much for us to tackle it all at once and he'll be gentle with us over it.

As long as we are on this earth our sin NATURE is a part of us and we're always going to be at war. God understands that, how incredibly difficult a task it is.

Also I don't know what you're defining as sin but many things we're taught are sin (i.e. angry thoughts) may not be sin, only give you feelings of guilt. At least that is my experience - that sometimes what I was raised to think was really my own misinterpretation which was flatly contradicted by scripture.

I'm not saying all this to encourage anybody to go be lenient on themselves - but there are two extremes to any scale and I speak this to those on the end that find themselves self-haters because they find that they sin.

Again just my take on it.