Life in the tribulation?

nephilimiyr said:

These are just thoughts and questions that have burdened me lately and I would like to see if anyone here are thinking or asking the same things. I don't mean this to be a debate so if you disagree on certain points feel free to say so but I wont argue with you. I just want to see how others are thinking about this who have the same view point as me. However if you are firm in your belief of a pre-trib rapture there's no need to answer to this post. Your free to do so, of coarse, but I wont debate you here, perhaps in another thread I will. This is mainly for the people who believe either in a mid, prewrath, or post tribulation rapture.

My belief is that of a rapture late in the tribulation, pre-wrath. I believe both Christians and Jews will be persecuted severly during this time. I believe we will be blamed for all the troubles and woes the world will suffer and has suffered in the past. We will be viewed as the major obstacle toward a one world government and therefore hunted down and taken out of the way. I believe these times will happen soon!

My thought's are that this world will shortly go through a very horrific time of war and desaster unprecedented in history. I believe this will be a terrible time and all our lives will be changed. I then believe the anti-Christ will show up to take over. The wars and troubles will be over with the anti-Christ bringing in peace but this will be a false peace.

When these things happen we will be shaken. Our lives haveing been turned upside down what will we do? Do we turn ourselves in? Do we run and hide waiting for Christ's return?

Matt. 24:9-10, Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another.

Here's the passage that has been troubleing me of late.
Matt. 24:12, And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

When we are delived up to be afficted I also believe this to mean torture. The evil that will prevail at this time will be great and the hatred towards us will be so that humanistic compassion for us will not be shown. It's easy for us to say now that our love for Jesus will never allow us to not deny his name but even Peter denied Jesus and all the other apostles fled! When faced with the prospect of being tortured to death I can't tell anyone of you with total honesty if I'll stand firm and freely proclaim Jesus as my Lord as I do now, not haveing the threat of death and torture faceing me. I do pray the Holy Spirit at that time gives me strength!

If we show weakness and flee to the hills what will we do then? How will we live? I know the Lord will provide but here's where I would really like opinions on! I do believe the scriptures do talk about a rapture of his true believers so some of us will be around at the end. We wont all die during the tribulation of these times.

I believe this is important for us to talk about now at this time. I don't think it's good that we put this off. Who know's if there will be an internet for us to be talking about the things that will befall us when our world around us comes appart.

Click to expand...

I believe some of this as you do my friend, but don't worry about it. Know that God will strengthen you as you need it. When Stephen went before the Sanhedrin, the Holy Spirit gave him the words to speak. You won't be able to deny Jesus, especially when you know Scripture and know why what is happening is happening. Temporal suffering is nothing in comparison with the eternal.

We have to trust in God. We don't know when any of this will happen, or if we're 100% accurate of how it will happen or how much already has. What's most important is not the end but that we get ourselves as ready as possible to meet Him. Can you imagine standing before Him? Feeling so insignificant yet loved all at once?

I was (and am still studying) very interested in Eschatology. But more important to me is to get my self where I need to be spiritually because I don't know when He will return. So I have to move towards a closer walk with Him now rather than waiting on Him to appear in the physical world.

Anyways, I'm rambling...

My point is don't worry. Just pray that God will prepare you and that you will do His will in all things in your life that He has for you to walk in. God bless.

quote-I then believe the anti-Christ will show
up to take over. The wars and troubles will be over with the anti-Christ bringing in peace but this will be a false
peace.
-------------------------
If it were as simple as that, you would not have to worry. Friend, the first and foremost

point is that YOU ASSUME THE ANTICHRIST will fit a certain profile.

That is the most dangerous deception that Satan could play on you.

The point is many would not even know whether the Anti Christ is here or not.

Please DO NOT MAKE THE ASSUMPTION that He would sit in some temple claiming to be God. Please do NOT MISUNDERSTAND and prepare for A LITERAL PLAYBACK of Daniel 11:36

FOR any temple built WOULD BE A PAGAN TEMPLE, that CANNOT be made any more

unholy FOR GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN ANY post 21ST CENTURY TEMPLE. Why have
Temples NEVER BEEN USED BY THE JEWS since 1948 and even before and why ON EARTH
would they SUDDENLY build a PAGAN TEMPLE? God was referring to A HOLY TEMPLE
being defiled by the Anti Christ, NOT A PAGAN Temple --- do we have Holy Temples on
Earth? No.

Never have THIS CENTURY (even before) and NEVER WILL BE A HOLY TEMPLE-

- where 2 or 3 are gathered, God is present.

What you must ask yourself is WHETHER YOU would even know if the

Anti Christ is here. Yes, there would be a great apostasy BUT THE POINT IS

many Christians are already in a state of APOSTASY BEFORE GOD, but IN THEIR

MINDS they feel they are worthy of God.

The serious problem is that YOU MAY not even recognise the revelation of the Anti christ

hence you could be TAKEN BY SURPRISE WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF shows up.

That is what is being overlooked. The Antichrist could be your best friend, you would

never know for HE DOES NOT CARRY A NICE 666 MARK ON HIS SUV.

Just about any Christian who appears Christian could be the Antichrist.... it is all in His

mind.

I have been wondering, well almost obssessing about the same things. I dont know if I'm pre-trib, pre-wrath or what, the point is we could all be wrong in the timing of the rapture and I think it's better to TRY to be prepared for what could lie ahead for us, then to run around in a state of oblivion. I don't know for sure how I would react in the face of torture or death, I would lack courage, thats for sure. I will not enjoy watching my children starve to death for lack of the "mark" I will miss going to church, because I will never worship the "beast" I will miss being on this forum, because it will not be allowed. I will be afraid of what others and myself will have to endure, and I know God didn't give us the spirit of fear, but come on, we're only human after all, why wouldn't we be even a little afraid? I don't know how people will survive because it says that NO ONE MAY BUY SELL OR TRADE WITHOUT THE MARK. So wether it's the mark of the govornment or one self-righteous world leader we wont work, buy food, buy fuel when it's 20 below, we wont have insurance for our kids' doctors, so looking at it this way, NO I dont look forward to the tribulation, how can any body?

No problem, one question I have though, How do we explain the events of the tribulation to our children? Considering it will happen in our life time? What am I supposed to tell my kids? And suppose it goes down the way you described earlier, how do I look my kids in the face and make them understand that the reason we are all trapped in a concentration camp awaiting death is because we are saved? How do we witness to others during that time if we are kept away from other people? Just some questions.

jayswife29 said:

I have been wondering, well almost obssessing about the same things. I dont know if I'm pre-trib, pre-wrath or what, the point is we could all be wrong in the timing of the rapture and I think it's better to TRY to be prepared for what could lie ahead for us, then to run around in a state of oblivion. I don't know for sure how I would react in the face of torture or death, I would lack courage, thats for sure. I will not enjoy watching my children starve to death for lack of the "mark" I will miss going to church, because I will never worship the "beast" I will miss being on this forum, because it will not be allowed. I will be afraid of what others and myself will have to endure, and I know God didn't give us the spirit of fear, but come on, we're only human after all, why wouldn't we be even a little afraid? I don't know how people will survive because it says that NO ONE MAY BUY SELL OR TRADE WITHOUT THE MARK. So wether it's the mark of the govornment or one self-righteous world leader we wont work, buy food, buy fuel when it's 20 below, we wont have insurance for our kids' doctors, so looking at it this way, NO I dont look forward to the tribulation, how can any body?

Click to expand...

As we discussed long before, it could be easy for us (ALL) to be forbidden from buying, selling, or trading with a mark of a beast. The ease of which is dependant upon the scope of your expectations in regards to its fulfillment.

One expects a literal mark (branding) to be placed upon every individual, whereas others will take a more broad approach to what must take place in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

Let's look for example at U.N.

Imagine if it passed a resolution (and numbered it 666 to boot) that forbade everyone in the WORLD (you, me, and Mickey Mouse) from buying, selling, or trading with, say, Iraq UNLESS you had APPROVAL from the U.N.

Now, if your scope was broad enough, you could deduce this:

1) U.N. is the Beast
2) Resolution 666 is the instrument for imposing/defining/restricting trade sanctions on the world
3) 666 is the number of the resolution
4) and that Buying, selling, and trading could only take place between Old Babylon (Iraq) and New Babylon (the world) via approval (or mark) from the U.N.

If this was your scope, then the prophecy could easily be fulfilled by the U.N. passing a Resolution. Many would not even know and the prophecy would be fulfilled in a mild manner to the degree that many would not even realize it.

The buying, selling, and trading is not what is burdensome (theory) to us, but it is used to help identify the beast that is against Christ.

No debate from me on the time line of events to come, just looking at all the possibilities, it could be the u.n.with their resolutions, but the point is people are going to go through a hard time, the worst the world has seen, maybe the only way some of us can "prepare" for it(if thats possible) is to voice our concerns to each other, to try to understand whats coming for ourselves, for each other. And yes my kids are 9, 11, and 12. They have a hard enough time trying to understand why other kids are so cruel to each other, they wont understand whats going on if the tribulation came upon us tomorrow.

cbk said:

Imagine if it passed a resolution (and numbered it 666 to boot) that forbade everyone in the WORLD (you, me, and Mickey Mouse) from buying, selling, or trading with, say, Iraq UNLESS you had APPROVAL from the U.N.

Click to expand...

UN Resolution 666 was passed in 1990 and dealt with the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. It was one of several such resolutions passed prior to the first Gulf War. I recall that a few nutballs tried to read some prophetic significance into it but it never panned out.

nephilimiyr said:

Yes, you do sound like you are thinking the exact same things I am as well. You made an excellent post and I thank you for that!

I agree with you totally on how God does not give us a spirit of fear but we are human so we must think realisticly. The things that will happen isn't anything any of us should look forward to but I do look forward to Jesus comeing again! I really don't know how to answer alot of these question's about what I would do but since I do believe I will probably go through this time I must ask myself these questions. Knowing that others are helps, thanks Jaywife29!!!

Oh yes, I too will miss this forum!!!

Click to expand...

Yes, we must be very realistic else we would not EVEN RECOGNISE CHRIST when He
returns and in that case our worries and burdens would be very fruitless.

It would not be rewarding and profitable to carry this burden of worry , If you cannot discern the object of your intense expections, that being Christ.

Under the guise of 2 Thessalonians 3:8, the Anti Christ being a practising Christian is obvious to the dsicerning Christian.... Thus the AntiChrist would not necessarily single out Jews and Christians into designated areas. You would not associate that with any evil forces thus you would BE DECEIVED without knowing. That makes all your worrying useless.

Let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that people who attend churches are Christians in the sight of God.?

You have projected something along those lines would happen before Christ returns.

You see, you are sincerely looking forward to Christ's return, but you must

not ignore the fact that His return could be misconstrued in the light

of our erroneous EXPECTATIONS... just as in Judea Christ was misunderstood by the very humans similar to humans on earth today. I mean, you have no idea of how you would react to Christ.

Make no mistake for Christ knew exactly what He said when He spoke of His presence on Earth bringing divisions even between brother and Sister, Husband and wife etc

People talk of and hope for lightning and noise in the clouds and such gimmicks when He returns etc, but I can assure you God speaks in ways that require non-literal spiritual discernment.

Patmosman_sga said:

UN Resolution 666 was passed in 1990 and dealt with the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. It was one of several such resolutions passed prior to the first Gulf War. I recall that a few nutballs tried to read some prophetic significance into it but it never panned out.

Click to expand...

You see how dangerous the end time deception could be?

This took place BUT VERY FEW would have even known of its significance.

Was it Iran or Syria that proposed that the UN pass this resolution 666?

Who tabled the motion and advocated the passage of this UN Resolution?

Patmosman_sga said:

UN Resolution 666 was passed in 1990 and dealt with the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. It was one of several such resolutions passed prior to the first Gulf War. I recall that a few nutballs tried to read some prophetic significance into it but it never panned out.

Click to expand...

But, only because the nutballs placed more significance to the mark than Revelation than this book illustrates.

666 deals with "buying, selling, and trading".... Nothing else.... Purely economic.

Many, during the Gulf War, were expecting 666 to hold more than just economic significance. Worship. Glorification of an anti-christ. United world army. Blah. Blah. Blah.

But, to me, 666 is PURELY economic and is used by the Beast. Now, the Beast may have other interests in regards to military, religious, social, and government functions, in addition to economic, but, in the context of Revelation, all I get from 666 is economics; nothing more.

This resolution existed until just a few weeks ago, I believe. And, if it were to somehow fit into prophecy it could be as follows:

Those who accept the United Nations as the kingdom of the earth have become citizens of this new Babylon that rejects God, attempts to reverse the Will of God, and expects all to subject themselves to its rule.

This may not mean much today, but tomorrow ???

cbk said:

But, only because the nutballs placed more significance to the mark than Revelation than this book illustrates.

666 deals with "buying, selling, and trading".... Nothing else.... Purely economic.

Many, during the Gulf War, were expecting 666 to hold more than just economic significance. Worship. Glorification of an anti-christ. United world army. Blah. Blah. Blah.

But, to me, 666 is PURELY economic and is used by the Beast. Now, the Beast may have other interests in regards to military, religious, social, and government functions, in addition to economic, but, in the context of Revelation, all I get from 666 is economics; nothing more.

This resolution existed until just a few weeks ago, I believe. And, if it were to somehow fit into prophecy it could be as follows:

Those who accept the United Nations as the kingdom of the earth have become citizens of this new Babylon that rejects God, attempts to reverse the Will of God, and expects all to subject themselves to its rule.

This may not mean much today, but tomorrow ???

Click to expand...

The meaning of 666 is really quite simple, but multi-dimensional. From a purely historical perspective, it is the numerical value of the name of the notorious Roman Emperor Nero, transliterated into Hebrew. For John's original readers, Nero certainly fit the profile of "the Beast" (in fact, he was known as "the Beast" among both Christians and pagans during his reign).

Further back in Israel's history, 666 was the number of gold talents which the nations were required to pay King Solomon annually. John's reference to the need for "wisdom" in discerning the number of the Beast may be a reference to Solomon. This is not to suggest that Solomon was "the Beast." Rather, the enigmatic reference to Solomon calls to mind the Temple, which represents the Old Covenant and the Jewish religious establishment which was persecuting the Church at the time of John's vision.

For ongoing history, the number 666 is a degradation of the number 7, which represents perfection, holiness and the covenant. The seventh day, the Sabbath, was the day in which buying, selling, trading, etc. were to cease and the people were to renew their covenant with God through worship. Worship on the seventh day sanctified the work done during the previous six days, following the pattern established by God himself in creation. A man with the number 666 is stuck on the sixth day; buying, selling, trading without honoring God on the Sabbath. Work not offered to God is not sanctified and, therefore, becomes a manifestation of evil, serving the interests of "the Beast," rather than the interests of God.

nephilimiyr said:

Rev. 19:11-15, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crownes; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty God.
I don't think the word of God is a gimmick to teach us truths either. We don't just talk of these things from our imaginations but we read it in his word and yes we do hope, look forward to, and pray for his return. What the word of God says, I believe!

Click to expand...

You may have misunderstood some of my points. Let us take a careful look at Revelation.
I hope you are not expecting to see the vision that John saw being played back to you.

Read Revelation 6:1-7 White, red black, green horses

JOHN SAW THOSE HORSES. The Human race in sections of time after the 1st century formed part of those HORSES.
Those 4 horses typified systems, not animals AND THEY were NEVER SEEN by humans when those events were being fulfilled and even if some are in the future.
They were not meant to be seen for that was not an event being described directly.

- Let us look at Revelation 13: Not even an unlearned scripture reader would
be looking FOR AN ANIMAL, A BEAST WITH 10 HORNS and 7 heads.

I HOPE YOU ARE following my train of thought.

Now the key here is the word symbolic.

Christ is described in ANCIENT symbolic terms in Revelation 19:11-15

What were humans being transported on in the 1st century? Horses, donkeys, etc. Computers were not given in the vision. Neither were space vehicle a but those were known by God as things humans would invent. John did not see fighter jets in his vision but that is what we see in our society. John was not shown the visions as they would take place in the post 20th century BUT in a symbolic and ancient vision appearance.

John was shown a vision that matched his times. Christ fits into human society with current dynamics of that human society. He spoke Aramaic and Aramaic is not a common language today, same as Adam did not speak Aramaic. Christ will not be speaking Aramaic
and He does not ride horses in the 21st century.

Adam was naked in Genesis 2 but events over time meant Adam was clothed in Genesis 3

This is very significant and do not place yourself in a fixed new Testament time warp
with respect to Christ.

He lived in Judea. He was not an ancient figure, He was an everyday 1st century Judean
Why do you expect Christ to appear as a horse riding 1st century form WHEN HE IS APPEARING in the post 20th century setting??

Think very carefully about the practical implications regarding all these DRAGONS, BEASTS, HORSES, LAMBS,CROWNS, ETC

We are all very familiar with the term the Lamb of God--- symbolic-- Christ is no lamb
and 21st century transport is not horse driven so expect nothing less.

REVELATION 19:11-15 SYMBOLS HORSES ETC

ACTUAL 21ST, 22ND CENTURY event that will take place and be observed by humans, NOT HORSES etc

We live in the 21st century, horses are not the mode of transport.
Do not understimate the gravity of this statement. God did not give symbols
for us to memorise and look for some playback of visions. Of course not.

Christ's return is in a post 20th century time setting, not in a horse chariot
drawn society. Christ is not returning in the 1st century. We have moved hundreds
of years beyond that and yes, the vision in Revelation ARE ACCURATE SYMBOLIC
VISIONS.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE A BEAST IN REVELATION 19:19
YET YOU have been wrongly expecting to ACTUALLY SEE THE SYMBOLIC WHITE HORSE in REVELATION 19.

You do not ride a horse. John was used to horses, and saw horses in Revelation 19

You live in the 21st century, humans have the ability to use space shuttles.
What humans tend to forget is that Biblical events match human societies existing at the time the Biblical event takes place. You cannot be expecting ACTUAL ANIMALS , horses IN REVELATION 19:11-15.
Horses belong in the past....from over 1900 years ago till some decades ago.
Not now, as far as regular majority carriers.