No One Can Stop Sinning ...What ?
- Thread starter Silver Surfer
- Start date
- Status
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Anyone who says you can "sin by accident" or you can "sin without knowing it" is just trying to rationalize their own sin. Wesley was not a believer, he was a religious philosopher.
Love is the fulfillment of the whole law. This is because love keeps you from sinning "accidentally." If I love my neighbor as myself and I love God with all my heart, it is impossible for me to sin.
He who says "I love God with all my heart," and then sins against God is simply lying!
He who says "I love my neighbor as I love myself" and then sins against himself or his neighbor is simply lying.
This is because love keeps you from doing anything that will harm ourselves, God, or others. That is why the new covenant is "the law written in our hearts and minds."
When people say they sin "accidentally" they just don't understand love!
People who say there's a difference between "being a sinner" and "committing sin," are so much as saying, "sin is not sin."
Isaiah described these hypocrites aptly "woe unto you who put darkness for light, bitter for sweet," and later "woe unto you who seek to hide their council from the Lord and their works are in the dark and they say "who sees us, who knows us?"
They can talk all day long about how the blood of their Jesus hides their sins from God, but I can assure you my friends, God is not blind to your sins.
Anyone who teaches the nonsense that we can't stop sinnig, and that they are going to sin until the day they die, is just merely a reprobate mind!
Love is the fulfillment of the whole law. This is because love keeps you from sinning "accidentally." If I love my neighbor as myself and I love God with all my heart, it is impossible for me to sin.
He who says "I love God with all my heart," and then sins against God is simply lying!
He who says "I love my neighbor as I love myself" and then sins against himself or his neighbor is simply lying.
This is because love keeps you from doing anything that will harm ourselves, God, or others. That is why the new covenant is "the law written in our hearts and minds."
When people say they sin "accidentally" they just don't understand love!
People who say there's a difference between "being a sinner" and "committing sin," are so much as saying, "sin is not sin."
Isaiah described these hypocrites aptly "woe unto you who put darkness for light, bitter for sweet," and later "woe unto you who seek to hide their council from the Lord and their works are in the dark and they say "who sees us, who knows us?"
They can talk all day long about how the blood of their Jesus hides their sins from God, but I can assure you my friends, God is not blind to your sins.
Anyone who teaches the nonsense that we can't stop sinnig, and that they are going to sin until the day they die, is just merely a reprobate mind!
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
I thought I was done preaching, but I'm not 
2 Peter 2:9-10
"9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished:
10 but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."
Many religious theologians put themselves in this category when they attack those who believe it's possible for God to make you sinless.
2 Peter 2: 12-15
"12 But these as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrigteousness, they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, AND THAT CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; CURSED CHILDREN:
15 Which HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, and are gone astry, following the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the WAGES OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."
Wow, I didn't have to say much, the scriptures say it all!
Shalom
2 Peter 2:9-10
"9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished:
10 but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."
Many religious theologians put themselves in this category when they attack those who believe it's possible for God to make you sinless.
2 Peter 2: 12-15
"12 But these as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrigteousness, they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, AND THAT CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; CURSED CHILDREN:
15 Which HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, and are gone astry, following the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the WAGES OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."
Wow, I didn't have to say much, the scriptures say it all!
Shalom
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom said:
First of all, who are you to judge whether or not Wesley was a believer? If you read his writings, he surely was. In fact, he was completely opposed to the idea that we cannot stop sinning until we die - his sermons are the foundation of the holiness movement!
Wesley did not preach we could sin 'on accident.' He preached we could sin unintentionally, or unwillingly. Let's say someone was new in town and didn't know the speed limits, so they went the speed they used to go, not seeing any signs. They surely broke the law, but was it intentional? Let's say you are a new believer and have not yet read the whole Bible, so there are some concepts and laws you didn't realize you were disobeying. Once you come to this new understanding, the Holy Spirit convicts you and you will no longer do these acts. Sins of ignorance are actually spoken of in the Bible - Paul addressed believers who had no idea fornication was a sin. He did not blame them, but informed them. They then stopped, knowing it was wrong. This is what Wesley meant.
You are absolutely right, God is not blind to our sins. This is something Wesley also taught. We are to walk in the light, as He is in the light. Our hearts must be in line with God, and our souls prostrated to Him. If this is the condition of your relationship, you will not sin in rebellion.
Wesley actually consistently and constantly taught that we can stop sinning! He was upset that believers actually thought they couldn't, and wanted to show them that they can.
[Love is the fulfillment of the whole law. This is because love keeps you from sinning "accidentally." If I love my neighbor as myself and I love God with all my heart, it is impossible for me to sin.]
Absolutely. And in this love, God will reveal more and more to you that needs to be corrected that you were unaware of. We don't have perfect knowledge - we are not omniscent. If we love God, like you said, He will keep us from sinning wholly. Again, I am not speaking of 'accidental' sins. That sounds like an excuse to me. I am talking of sins that were not in willful rebellion.Such exist, and the Scriptures teach this. But if convicted by the Holy Spirit of the evil of these acts, the believer, if true to God, will and must stop the activity.
Living a sinless life is what we are called to do, and Jesus wouldn't call us to do something impossible. God is with us every step of the way making and keeping us holy, if we are obedient.
Kyle
Upvote
0
"There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins." Ecclesiastes 7:20
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
That is an excellent quote from the Tanakh, thank you for it, I'd forgotten that one
I hope that those who read my postings understand that I am not on the attack, and I have nothing against John Wesley, he took the right approach, however, if you study the "philosophical ideals" he fostered you come to the conclusion that, if he and those who follow him are correct, you are better off not teaching your kids morality, for, if they do not know moral law (by Wesley's theory) they will never be held accountable, and they are not sinners (for every sin they commit is out of ignorance). Mankind, therefore, by their reasoning was better off not knowing the law, and the law brings death to the hearers.
For you see, if it only becomes a sin once we have knowledge of the law which forbids the activity, therefore, those who do not know any moral code at all are "sinless creatures" by this definition.
What's fascinating about this is it's the same "basic" premise behind Satanism. Check it out, you'll find out I'm right. Satanists believe that sin only exists because there are those who impose a moral code, they therefore denounce all moral code and state emphatically that sin doesn't exist!
The "speed limit" analogy posed by one posting really got to me. Don't they post speed limits on signs along the roadway? Last time I checked they did!
The fact is, sinfulness is a state of the heart, and religion (even Wesley) has taught for centuries that man was "born to sin," having the "adamic curse," (which is a teaching that is completely unsubstantiated in scripture). While Wesley (and other apologists) conceded that we can "cease from known sins" they continued to propogate the lie that man is an "inherant sinner" who can never be free from the bonds of this as long as he is in the flesh.
They quote Romans 7, and many in these posts have followed their example and fell back on Romans 7, however, if you read Romans 7 in it's entirety he states "when we were in the flesh" thus, making it known that he's talking about someone who is living "after the flesh." He also says "I was alive once, but then the law came, sin revived in me and I died," making it known that he's not talking about himself in this chapter at all, but is talking about mankind in general (walking in the flesh).
Many have posted statements in this forum like "Paul had trouble with sin too," and quoted Romans 7. It's easy to see the influence that these lies have had on Christians for centuries. In Romans 7 he states "in my flesh dwells no good thing," thus he's making it crystal clear he's talking about someone who does not possess the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for how can a man that has Messiah living in him say "in me dwells no good thing?"
Paul then concludes Romans 7 by saying that if we attempt to obey the law with our minds, the flesh wins every time. Yet, we who have the Spirit have been given the "mind of Christ." We don't attempt to be righteous with our minds! Then he says "who shall deliver me... I thank God through Jesus Christ."
Then, in Romans 8 (which those who I am talking about never quote), Paul echoes what he told the Galatians "walk in the Spirit and you SHALL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Romans 8 tells us in no uncertain terms that we are "no longer in the flesh, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us," then goes even further and predicts that even though the body is "dead" because of sin, that self same Spirit shall also "quicken" or revive our mortal bodies. This is a prediction of the coming generation who will "mortify" the deeds of the body and walk Holy and Righteous, on the earth, without sin, without spot or wrinkle. This generation will not have to "die" as some have said in this forum, in order to be perfect, they will step into the very image of the perfect Messiah, having never tasted death!
Thus, all the theological debates are rendered silent and moot by the predictions that there is a coming generation who will walk in the Spirit to the fullest extent as Messiah did.
"Brethren, now we know that we are the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that has this hope in him PURIFIES himself, even as HE is pure!"
Awake to the light, little children. The time is nearer than you think
Shalom
I hope that those who read my postings understand that I am not on the attack, and I have nothing against John Wesley, he took the right approach, however, if you study the "philosophical ideals" he fostered you come to the conclusion that, if he and those who follow him are correct, you are better off not teaching your kids morality, for, if they do not know moral law (by Wesley's theory) they will never be held accountable, and they are not sinners (for every sin they commit is out of ignorance). Mankind, therefore, by their reasoning was better off not knowing the law, and the law brings death to the hearers.
For you see, if it only becomes a sin once we have knowledge of the law which forbids the activity, therefore, those who do not know any moral code at all are "sinless creatures" by this definition.
What's fascinating about this is it's the same "basic" premise behind Satanism. Check it out, you'll find out I'm right. Satanists believe that sin only exists because there are those who impose a moral code, they therefore denounce all moral code and state emphatically that sin doesn't exist!
The "speed limit" analogy posed by one posting really got to me. Don't they post speed limits on signs along the roadway? Last time I checked they did!
The fact is, sinfulness is a state of the heart, and religion (even Wesley) has taught for centuries that man was "born to sin," having the "adamic curse," (which is a teaching that is completely unsubstantiated in scripture). While Wesley (and other apologists) conceded that we can "cease from known sins" they continued to propogate the lie that man is an "inherant sinner" who can never be free from the bonds of this as long as he is in the flesh.
They quote Romans 7, and many in these posts have followed their example and fell back on Romans 7, however, if you read Romans 7 in it's entirety he states "when we were in the flesh" thus, making it known that he's talking about someone who is living "after the flesh." He also says "I was alive once, but then the law came, sin revived in me and I died," making it known that he's not talking about himself in this chapter at all, but is talking about mankind in general (walking in the flesh).
Many have posted statements in this forum like "Paul had trouble with sin too," and quoted Romans 7. It's easy to see the influence that these lies have had on Christians for centuries. In Romans 7 he states "in my flesh dwells no good thing," thus he's making it crystal clear he's talking about someone who does not possess the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for how can a man that has Messiah living in him say "in me dwells no good thing?"
Paul then concludes Romans 7 by saying that if we attempt to obey the law with our minds, the flesh wins every time. Yet, we who have the Spirit have been given the "mind of Christ." We don't attempt to be righteous with our minds! Then he says "who shall deliver me... I thank God through Jesus Christ."
Then, in Romans 8 (which those who I am talking about never quote), Paul echoes what he told the Galatians "walk in the Spirit and you SHALL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Romans 8 tells us in no uncertain terms that we are "no longer in the flesh, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us," then goes even further and predicts that even though the body is "dead" because of sin, that self same Spirit shall also "quicken" or revive our mortal bodies. This is a prediction of the coming generation who will "mortify" the deeds of the body and walk Holy and Righteous, on the earth, without sin, without spot or wrinkle. This generation will not have to "die" as some have said in this forum, in order to be perfect, they will step into the very image of the perfect Messiah, having never tasted death!
Thus, all the theological debates are rendered silent and moot by the predictions that there is a coming generation who will walk in the Spirit to the fullest extent as Messiah did.
"Brethren, now we know that we are the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that has this hope in him PURIFIES himself, even as HE is pure!"
Awake to the light, little children. The time is nearer than you think
Shalom
Upvote
0
You are forgetting that we have all been given light, and that we all have a moral code written on our hearts (a conscience). Even the unregenerate has a sense of what is right and what is wrong. This is evidence of God working in their lives.
Every man is born with a sinful nature, this is completely true. But it is also true that the grace which leads to salvation comes upon every man. We are all given some light, thus we are all responsible. There is not man on earth that was born into total ignorance. This is not what I am saying, at all. We all have conscience sins we are responsible for.
Is not the Holy Spirit the one who convicts the sinner of sin? And, does not this conviction come down upon all men (it does)? God powerfully tells the sinner that he is in danger, and that he is hopeless without Christ. This is what God did with Paul - it is what He does with everybody. The Holy Spirit is what makes us conscience of our need for Christ! We then make the choice of whether to repent and believe, or go on sinning.
The Holy Spirit strives with every single man on earth, showing him his sins. For, because of his sinful nature, he would not come to God on his own. He would feel no need for Christ, for he wouldn't feel remorse for His sins.
What I am saying is every single man has sins that he is responsible for, and that he does willfully and in rebellion. We have all been given light, and we all know we have done things that are wrong. You can ask any human being that, whether athiest, buddhist, or Christian. So no man is in ignorance.
When a believer comes to Christ, it is because of this conviction of sin. Without the Holy Spirit, no one would care about Jesus - we would continue on our way not realizing the gravity of our sins. But He convicts us all, opening our eyes and enabling us to choose.
You are completely right about Romans 7, it is refering to Paul in his carnal state. I am not arguing for sin in the believer, at all! I believe in holiness. There is no such thing as a sinning saint.
But, you realize, a true believer will listen to the Holy Spirit, obey, and not sin. The Holy Spirit tells us what we are doing is sinful, so that we may stop. The Spirit is inside of us, and our heart is what matters, like you said.
In 1 Corinth, Paul addressed Christians who were still practicing sinful pagan activities. They had no access to a Bible, and they were completely ignorant of the Law of God. Paul tells them what they are doing is sinful so they will stop, and they did! In the second letter he assumes they know, and talks this way. But in the first, he was informing them in astonishment, but not telling them that they weren't Christians. We know they were by the beginning address in the chapter.
And this was a VERY unique case. This doesn't happen anymore. The world knows. But it would be silly to assume that every human creature that has ever lived has known the entire premise of the Law. Yet, like I said, they have light, and have a conscience. Thus, they still sin in rebellion.
It is still of the heart, and the light that we recieve. But no man or woman has recieved no light or grace from God, so we all have sinned in willful rebelion. So your argument that says men are better off left ignorant and not instructed in morality is unfounded, for all men have a sense of right and wrong in their hearts. It may not be full, but it is enough to condemn any man who rebels against it, and all do.
This is not a denial of absolute truths of right and wrong, but a question of responsibility. In the same token, do you believe babies are going to hell? Surely they have done things that are sinful, but was it knowingly, or willfully? I don't think so.
In any case! I believe that once we become Christian, we become holy. I agree with you that at this point we have God in our hearts, and we will obey the command to love God and others like ourselves. I do not believe in 'gradual' holiness, or 'growing out of sin.' When we are Christian, we either sin or we do not. So I see no point in arguing, we both agree with this. If a believer does sin, he has fallen away from the faith. Believers do not sin. Sin is anti-thetical to holiness.
Kyle
Every man is born with a sinful nature, this is completely true. But it is also true that the grace which leads to salvation comes upon every man. We are all given some light, thus we are all responsible. There is not man on earth that was born into total ignorance. This is not what I am saying, at all. We all have conscience sins we are responsible for.
Is not the Holy Spirit the one who convicts the sinner of sin? And, does not this conviction come down upon all men (it does)? God powerfully tells the sinner that he is in danger, and that he is hopeless without Christ. This is what God did with Paul - it is what He does with everybody. The Holy Spirit is what makes us conscience of our need for Christ! We then make the choice of whether to repent and believe, or go on sinning.
The Holy Spirit strives with every single man on earth, showing him his sins. For, because of his sinful nature, he would not come to God on his own. He would feel no need for Christ, for he wouldn't feel remorse for His sins.
What I am saying is every single man has sins that he is responsible for, and that he does willfully and in rebellion. We have all been given light, and we all know we have done things that are wrong. You can ask any human being that, whether athiest, buddhist, or Christian. So no man is in ignorance.
When a believer comes to Christ, it is because of this conviction of sin. Without the Holy Spirit, no one would care about Jesus - we would continue on our way not realizing the gravity of our sins. But He convicts us all, opening our eyes and enabling us to choose.
You are completely right about Romans 7, it is refering to Paul in his carnal state. I am not arguing for sin in the believer, at all! I believe in holiness. There is no such thing as a sinning saint.
But, you realize, a true believer will listen to the Holy Spirit, obey, and not sin. The Holy Spirit tells us what we are doing is sinful, so that we may stop. The Spirit is inside of us, and our heart is what matters, like you said.
In 1 Corinth, Paul addressed Christians who were still practicing sinful pagan activities. They had no access to a Bible, and they were completely ignorant of the Law of God. Paul tells them what they are doing is sinful so they will stop, and they did! In the second letter he assumes they know, and talks this way. But in the first, he was informing them in astonishment, but not telling them that they weren't Christians. We know they were by the beginning address in the chapter.
And this was a VERY unique case. This doesn't happen anymore. The world knows. But it would be silly to assume that every human creature that has ever lived has known the entire premise of the Law. Yet, like I said, they have light, and have a conscience. Thus, they still sin in rebellion.
It is still of the heart, and the light that we recieve. But no man or woman has recieved no light or grace from God, so we all have sinned in willful rebelion. So your argument that says men are better off left ignorant and not instructed in morality is unfounded, for all men have a sense of right and wrong in their hearts. It may not be full, but it is enough to condemn any man who rebels against it, and all do.
This is not a denial of absolute truths of right and wrong, but a question of responsibility. In the same token, do you believe babies are going to hell? Surely they have done things that are sinful, but was it knowingly, or willfully? I don't think so.
In any case! I believe that once we become Christian, we become holy. I agree with you that at this point we have God in our hearts, and we will obey the command to love God and others like ourselves. I do not believe in 'gradual' holiness, or 'growing out of sin.' When we are Christian, we either sin or we do not. So I see no point in arguing, we both agree with this. If a believer does sin, he has fallen away from the faith. Believers do not sin. Sin is anti-thetical to holiness.
Kyle
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
It appears that we are in agreement on Holiness, just not how it comes about. We are in agreement with sin, just not how it is identified. We appear to agree, yet, we are not "like minded" on two of the most primary issues of salvation. Since the Holy Spirit is not going to tell us two different things on these issues, one of us (or both of us) still have some "learning" to do.
What surprises me is that you seem to want to have it both ways. You want to say that Wesley was right in his assertion that we can sin "unknowingly" and therefore it's not accountable, then you want to say that every man has a conscience, and every man knows when he's doing right or wrong. You don't seem to see how contradictory these two approaches are (and neither did Wesley, so you are in very good company).
As for me, I like a logical approach to the subjects of sin, holiness, faith, grace, salvation, etc.
Babies do not sin... end of story.
We do "grow" into holiness. The entire new creation is "groaning and travailing together until now." No one says a "sinners prayer," and then is magically transformed into a sinless person. If that were true it wouldn't say "if any man sins we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua Messiah, the righteous."
As with babies, God judges accountability for sin. For example, what about mentally handicapped people. Some people have IQ's below 50. We are never going to be able to hold up our standard of obedience and knowledge of all things holy, and extend it to that person. They would have to be healed first, which is another subject.
All I know is this, my dear dear brother in Spirit, (and I mean that), John Wesley, and those teachers like him, created hundreds of thousands of misguided people who walk around thinking it's possible to "sin by accident" and therefore, the battle against sin is "futile." I've met and spoken to these people. A minister is known by his fruits.
The battle against sin is not won yet, but it will be won, but it will not be won by us sitting around waiting to die for our perfection, or waiting for God to come magically transform us into perfect human butterflies.
The battle against sin is raging all around us, and if we don't step in and take part, we will surely perish.
Those who say "it's impossible to stop sinning, you can even sin by accident, and not even know it," have set themselves on the path of the fallen! I weep in my spirit for each and every one of them and I set my heart and mind as hard as steel against those who taught them this hideous lie from the pit of Hell!
Sin is a state of the heart, and that state of the heart manifests itself in symptoms (undesirable actions). Religion attempts to either get rid of the symptoms or to create a system of atonement and penance that releases the person from the penalty of these undesirable acts.
True religion, the worshipping of the Father "in Spirit and in truth," changes the person bit by bit into "a new creature." You labor as a woman with child in pain to deliver a man child into the world. When that manchild is born, he is the son of God, and is caught up into heaven.
We are all supposed to be working together toward this great and glorious day of redemption of mind, body, and soul, yet evil ones have crept in at unawares and have scattered the people of God to the four corners of the earth. We are so divided on this issue, and religion is so corrupted itself with the lies that we cannot be like Christ, God is sending out a cry "come out of her my people."
If I don't believe that I can stop sinning, how can I say I believe I can be "like Jesus?" In fact, what's the point in asking the question "what would Jesus do?" The question is pointless if I can never stop sinning, because we can be sure that whatever Jesus would do, it wouldn't be sinful, and if that sort of behavior is beyond us, the question "what would Jesus do," is answered thusly. It doesn't matter what Jesus would do, you can't do what Jesus would do!
People that say "you can't stop sinning," then sign their posts "WWJD" crack me up!
What surprises me is that you seem to want to have it both ways. You want to say that Wesley was right in his assertion that we can sin "unknowingly" and therefore it's not accountable, then you want to say that every man has a conscience, and every man knows when he's doing right or wrong. You don't seem to see how contradictory these two approaches are (and neither did Wesley, so you are in very good company).
As for me, I like a logical approach to the subjects of sin, holiness, faith, grace, salvation, etc.
Babies do not sin... end of story.
We do "grow" into holiness. The entire new creation is "groaning and travailing together until now." No one says a "sinners prayer," and then is magically transformed into a sinless person. If that were true it wouldn't say "if any man sins we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua Messiah, the righteous."
As with babies, God judges accountability for sin. For example, what about mentally handicapped people. Some people have IQ's below 50. We are never going to be able to hold up our standard of obedience and knowledge of all things holy, and extend it to that person. They would have to be healed first, which is another subject.
All I know is this, my dear dear brother in Spirit, (and I mean that), John Wesley, and those teachers like him, created hundreds of thousands of misguided people who walk around thinking it's possible to "sin by accident" and therefore, the battle against sin is "futile." I've met and spoken to these people. A minister is known by his fruits.
The battle against sin is not won yet, but it will be won, but it will not be won by us sitting around waiting to die for our perfection, or waiting for God to come magically transform us into perfect human butterflies.
The battle against sin is raging all around us, and if we don't step in and take part, we will surely perish.
Those who say "it's impossible to stop sinning, you can even sin by accident, and not even know it," have set themselves on the path of the fallen! I weep in my spirit for each and every one of them and I set my heart and mind as hard as steel against those who taught them this hideous lie from the pit of Hell!
Sin is a state of the heart, and that state of the heart manifests itself in symptoms (undesirable actions). Religion attempts to either get rid of the symptoms or to create a system of atonement and penance that releases the person from the penalty of these undesirable acts.
True religion, the worshipping of the Father "in Spirit and in truth," changes the person bit by bit into "a new creature." You labor as a woman with child in pain to deliver a man child into the world. When that manchild is born, he is the son of God, and is caught up into heaven.
We are all supposed to be working together toward this great and glorious day of redemption of mind, body, and soul, yet evil ones have crept in at unawares and have scattered the people of God to the four corners of the earth. We are so divided on this issue, and religion is so corrupted itself with the lies that we cannot be like Christ, God is sending out a cry "come out of her my people."
If I don't believe that I can stop sinning, how can I say I believe I can be "like Jesus?" In fact, what's the point in asking the question "what would Jesus do?" The question is pointless if I can never stop sinning, because we can be sure that whatever Jesus would do, it wouldn't be sinful, and if that sort of behavior is beyond us, the question "what would Jesus do," is answered thusly. It doesn't matter what Jesus would do, you can't do what Jesus would do!
People that say "you can't stop sinning," then sign their posts "WWJD" crack me up!
Upvote
0
What I was trying to say is that Christian perfection is not "God perfection" or "Angelic perfection." We can make some errors, miscalculations, and things of the sort. When Wesley spoke about not being 'totally perfect,' he meant as humans. He was talking about errors that human beings make that are not sins, that are just simply errors. We cannot expect to be perfect at calculus, or be able to know exactly how to console a brother of ours, though we are trying with our hearts. As much as we try to know what to say, sometimes we won't, simply because of human limitation. People were lashing out at Wesley and baulking at him at the idea of living perfect, and he had to tell these people that living perfect didn't mean humans make normal, amoral mistakes and miscalculations. He never justified sin in the believer.
And what I meant when I talked about conscience is that all men do have one, therefore all men have done things wrong according to their own conscience. Thus, no man is sinless. But men having a conscience and a Christian being empowered and convicted by the Holy Spirit are two very different things. Surely Paul had a conscience before his conversion, but he said himself that the law was dead to him before the Spirit convicted him - in other words, he didn't care or see the gravity of his sins (before conversion). The Holy Spirit convicts us all in the same manner. When the law was made alive, he realized he was the one that was dead.
If you suggest that we grow into holiness, then you are also suggesting that in the process Christians sin. How do you define 'growing into holiness' then? If we have the Holy Spirit, wouldn't we never sin, as you said? You began this argument saying that by having the HS in our hearts, we live up to the great Law of love.
[Some people have IQ's below 50. We are never going to be able to hold up our standard of obedience and knowledge of all things holy]
Here you have admitted that standards of obedience and knowledge do matter, and vary between human beings.
And if you don't believe babies 'sin', then you are denying original sin. Why don't you believe they sin? Because they do not have the knowledge or capacity for obedience, thus not making them accountible? You have therefore established that 'accoutability' has a place in God's judgment. To be SIN, one must have full knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, and do it anyways. You have established this. This is why I believe babies and young children don't sin, while they still do things that are displeasing to God. They will go to heaven. How about the Christians in corrinth? They knew nothing of the Jewish (Christian) law, but were still loving each other and God with all thier hearts up to the light they had. Paul did not condemn them or call them accountable or unChristian, but he informed them. Coming to this light, they were now accountable. Handicapped people and young children do things that are wrong, period. But they are not held accountable because of their limited knowledge and obedience. Since you don't believe when sinners become Christian they stop sinning from the get go, you are implying that they sin out of pure disobedience. Do Christians do this?
[The battle against sin is not won yet, but it will be won, but it will not be won by us sitting around waiting to die for our perfection, or waiting for God to come magically transform us into perfect human butterflies.]
Actually, I believe it is God that transforms us into sinless beings. By trusting in His work and His work only, we will become sinless, by His power, and not our own.
I do not think we are in disagreement on "two of the most primary issues of salvation." Salvation requires repentence of past sins and accepting Jesus as your Savior. If you have truly done this, the Holy Spirit will come into your heart and empower you to holiness. I do not believe in covering sins by calling them 'sins of ignorance' is right, at all. People may do this, but I don't. I do believe that humans make mistakes according to the limitations of their mind and body, which is what Wesley was arguing for. These mistakes have nothing to do with sin, at all. Christians are empowered by the Spirit not to sin, period.
But if sin is the state of the heart (which Wesley said), then it is not a state of the mind. The mind may need time to catch up, to know all that is wrong. Once they learn more, if their heart is in the right state, they do not sin. Sin remains a state of the heart, not of the mind, or knowledge.
And what I meant when I talked about conscience is that all men do have one, therefore all men have done things wrong according to their own conscience. Thus, no man is sinless. But men having a conscience and a Christian being empowered and convicted by the Holy Spirit are two very different things. Surely Paul had a conscience before his conversion, but he said himself that the law was dead to him before the Spirit convicted him - in other words, he didn't care or see the gravity of his sins (before conversion). The Holy Spirit convicts us all in the same manner. When the law was made alive, he realized he was the one that was dead.
If you suggest that we grow into holiness, then you are also suggesting that in the process Christians sin. How do you define 'growing into holiness' then? If we have the Holy Spirit, wouldn't we never sin, as you said? You began this argument saying that by having the HS in our hearts, we live up to the great Law of love.
[Some people have IQ's below 50. We are never going to be able to hold up our standard of obedience and knowledge of all things holy]
Here you have admitted that standards of obedience and knowledge do matter, and vary between human beings.
And if you don't believe babies 'sin', then you are denying original sin. Why don't you believe they sin? Because they do not have the knowledge or capacity for obedience, thus not making them accountible? You have therefore established that 'accoutability' has a place in God's judgment. To be SIN, one must have full knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, and do it anyways. You have established this. This is why I believe babies and young children don't sin, while they still do things that are displeasing to God. They will go to heaven. How about the Christians in corrinth? They knew nothing of the Jewish (Christian) law, but were still loving each other and God with all thier hearts up to the light they had. Paul did not condemn them or call them accountable or unChristian, but he informed them. Coming to this light, they were now accountable. Handicapped people and young children do things that are wrong, period. But they are not held accountable because of their limited knowledge and obedience. Since you don't believe when sinners become Christian they stop sinning from the get go, you are implying that they sin out of pure disobedience. Do Christians do this?
[The battle against sin is not won yet, but it will be won, but it will not be won by us sitting around waiting to die for our perfection, or waiting for God to come magically transform us into perfect human butterflies.]
Actually, I believe it is God that transforms us into sinless beings. By trusting in His work and His work only, we will become sinless, by His power, and not our own.
I do not think we are in disagreement on "two of the most primary issues of salvation." Salvation requires repentence of past sins and accepting Jesus as your Savior. If you have truly done this, the Holy Spirit will come into your heart and empower you to holiness. I do not believe in covering sins by calling them 'sins of ignorance' is right, at all. People may do this, but I don't. I do believe that humans make mistakes according to the limitations of their mind and body, which is what Wesley was arguing for. These mistakes have nothing to do with sin, at all. Christians are empowered by the Spirit not to sin, period.
But if sin is the state of the heart (which Wesley said), then it is not a state of the mind. The mind may need time to catch up, to know all that is wrong. Once they learn more, if their heart is in the right state, they do not sin. Sin remains a state of the heart, not of the mind, or knowledge.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Read what Wesley has to say
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-040.stm
You will find that he argues adamantly that Christians do not sin, plain and simply. He makes no excuse for 'ignorant sins,' only human miscalculation or error in ignorance that even the best-hearted men can do. Again, these errors, as he explains, having nothing to do with sin.
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-040.stm
You will find that he argues adamantly that Christians do not sin, plain and simply. He makes no excuse for 'ignorant sins,' only human miscalculation or error in ignorance that even the best-hearted men can do. Again, these errors, as he explains, having nothing to do with sin.
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Take up the Cross said:
Thank you so much for the link. Ok, here we go, we shall "examine the scriptures, whether these things be so.
From I.9 of his sermon...
Yet we may, lastly, observe, that neither in this respect is there any absolute perfection on earth.
This is flatly not true. There comes a day, fast approaching when we shall "put on incorruption," when this mortal shall "put on mortality," we shall stand here on the earth, perfect as Messiah was perfect. "We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." (1 Corinthians 15) We who do "not sleep" but are changed, will also "reign with Messiah as Kings and Priests."
Anyone who denies that the believers in Messiah shall not obtain to complete and total perfection on earth some day, is made a false prophet, for indeed it will occur, and we "press on to, and hasten the day," when we do mortify the deeds of the body, through the "daily sacrifice."
From I.2 of his sermon-
They cannot understand, I will not say, how "there are Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;" [1 John 5:7] or how the eternal Son of God "took upon himself the form of a servant;" [Phil. 2:7] -- but not any one attribute, not any one circumstance of the divine nature. [2 Pet. 1:4]
There is much I could say from scripture to refute this statement. It's is so horribly in error I won't waste my time. I will simply say that there is "no secret" that will not be revealed. Unto us it is given to understand "the breadth and the height," of all things pertaining to God, and in fact we shall "know as we are known."
From II.17
'In many things we offend all,' (Jas. 3:2) And is not offending the same as committing sin?" In this place, I allow it is: I allow the persons here spoken of did commit sin; yea, that they all committed many sins. But who are the persons here spoken of?
Wesley completely misses the point of this verse. Messiah's righteousness was an offense to the hypocrites. Our righteousness will be no more of an offense to the world.
Let me just say, I thoroughly enjoyed this sermon, and it is evident to me that Wesley had a measure of faith that was way beyond those of his generation.
Wesley had as much faith as anyone could possibly have in his situation, and he dealt with the scriptures as honestly as anyone in his place, time, and experience could have done.
Nevertheless, Wesley in his lifetime never came to crucial revelations from the Holy Spirit, of which, I will not go into now. His constant reference to "known sins" reveals that he did not understand the extent to which the Holy Spirit is available to the believers, for the Holy Spirit knows all sin, and if a man is hearing from the Spirit, that knowledge is available to him. Where Wesley, and other holiness preachers of mainstream Christianity falter is their continued encouragement of the believers to rely on their own "mental knowledge," of the scriptures, and the "mental knowledge of their pastors and ministers," instead of the Holy Spirit. This is purely a "control" issue.
"But the annointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you have no need for any man to teach you, for that same annointing teaches you of all things and is truth and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." (1 John 2:29)
"Brethren as touching brotherly love, you have no need that I write unto you, for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another."
(1 Thess 4:9)
"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (Messiah in you) the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
(1 Corinthians 2: 6-7)
"Now we have received, not the pirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
(1 Corinthians 2: 12-13)
"For Messiah sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with widom of words, or the cross of Messiah should be made of none effect."
(1 Corinthians 1:17)
So, we see that we have no need to be taught 1. of man and 2. of scripture (the writings of the Apostles and prophets) in how to "love one another." Love is the motivating force for sinless perfection, not knowledge or teaching. Which, to be fair Wesley touched on only slightly, but then he continually steered the thought back to reliance on teachers and knowledge, because he was a professional minister, who made his living this way, and knew where his bread was buttered, and knew how quickly he would be ostracised by his collegues if he took that final leap of faith! Thus, he continues to make mention of "known sins," as if there is any sin the Holy Spirit is not aware of, and as if we can't possibly listen to the Holy Spirit so precisely that God reveals every sinful intent of our heart before it comes to fruition in action and word!
I know this is going to wrankle many of you, but it is something that needs to be said. We know of a certainty that the breaking of any of the ten commandments falls under the category of "known sin," yet, here is Wesley, saying the Christians don't sin known sins, and all the while he openly disregards the fourth commandment to honor the Sabbath Day, the SEVENTH DAY of the week, and to do no work therein. Wesley disregarded this commandment his entire life and taught others to do likewise, encouraging, instead the Catholic "Lord's Day" doctrine of Sunday worship, and all the while preaching that Christians don't commit KNOWN sins. I'm here to tell you the seventh day sabbath command is one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, to break it is a KNOWN SIN! It's written right there in black and white for anyone to see, who cares to see. There will be no excuse to anyone who disregards the fourth commandment. NONE!
Yet, Wesley went the way of all of the erronious ministers of his day, encouraging that the ten commandments have been done away with (or fulfilled) in Messiah, for that my friends is the ONLY excuse they use for not honoring the Sabbath Day. Without the notion that Messiah fulfilled the law for us, and we are no longer required to obey the ten commandments, they have NO EXCUSE for disregarding the fourth commandment.
This is a sin that ALL Christian ministers everywhere make (with exception of possibly the Seventh Day Adventists, but they have other lying doctrines that are not of God).
Thus, I conclude my analysis of Wesley.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
J. Dean
Upvote
0
Wesley was not shown the 7th day Sabbath...otherwise he would have kept it. He was a reformer for his time period only...he had yet to discover truths that are essential for todays christians.
The same can be said of Martin Luther and others.
They were given certain truths that they could handle...coming out of such gross errors as the Catholic Church held over them at the time.
The same can be said of Martin Luther and others.
They were given certain truths that they could handle...coming out of such gross errors as the Catholic Church held over them at the time.
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Silver Surfer said:
What? They never read the ten commandments? Amazing!
C'mon now!
They were under the misguided notion that the ten commandments were "fulfilled" in Christ. This being said, if the ten commandments were truly fulfilled in Christ, then there is no requirement to keep them. If the Sabbath Day was not for Wesley's day, than niether were the other 9 commandments.
The Sabbath Day is for Yesterday, Today, and Forever.
One has to question how one can believe in "holiness," and keeping the ten commandments as Wesley claimed he believed, then not keep the Sabbath!
Something smells fishy!
Shalom
Upvote
0
I really can't explain it either. I just thought that that was how God was operating with those people in that time.
I read somewhere that the only 2 doctrines that the reformers brought out of Catholism, that never was corrected, was the 'Sunday Sacredness' doctrine, and the 'immortal soul doctrine'.
I read somewhere that the only 2 doctrines that the reformers brought out of Catholism, that never was corrected, was the 'Sunday Sacredness' doctrine, and the 'immortal soul doctrine'.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Silver Surfer said:
There are many more. If you research Luther you will find out one startling truth. He never set out to, nor did he want to create a new "faction" or denomination of Christianity. He was a "reformer," which means he wanted to "reform" the Catholic Church. He had no desire to start his own religion. You can draw your own conclusions from this if you want, however, I can assure you there are many other doctrines not supported in scripture, incorporated by the Catholic Church that are received, taught, and believed by Protestantism.
In fact, it's easier to name their differences, than it is to name their similarities. They have far less differences than they do similarities.
It might startle many to learn this one basic truth. It was a Pope who changed the worship to the first day of the week. The Catholics do not say the first day of the week is the Sabbath. They admit and teach in their catechisms that the seventh day is the Sabbath! Their canon teaches that the Popes, being God's representative on earth (the vicar), has authority to rescind God's fourth commandment!
When Protestants accept this change to Sunday, they are, in point of fact, conceding to the authority of Rome, and the Pope! If that doesn't startle you, then nothing will.
I didn't mean to open a whole line of discussion. I merely meant to point out that those who teach, as Wesley did, that it is possible to cease from the known sins, seem to conveniently "not know," God's fourth commandment.
God wrote this commandment in stone with his own finger. He scattered Israel numerous times because they profaned it, he leveled Jerusalem TWICE for the very same reason. Every prophet spoke out concerning the profaning of the Sabbath. Yahshua Messiah observed the Sabbath openly, his Apostles as well obeyed God's fourth commandment. People have been massacred, boiled alive, put in gas chambers, driven from cities, persecuted to the ends of the earth for keeping the Sabbath.
I ask you, what more can God do, that he has not done, to make "known" the Sabbath command to these people, yet they stand there, talking about "known" and "unknown" sins, and claiming to not commit "known" sins, all the while profaning God's fourth commandment! It's simply just incredible is what it is!
All I want to say, more, about the Sabbath, is, I pray for the sakes of the "ignorant" that Messiah's return is not on the Sabbath day, for he makes it clear that on the day of his return, any of his followers who are "in transgression," will be cast out with the hypocrites. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth!
In peace
Shalom
J. Dean
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Behold the fruits of religion.
The religious theologians speak their truths from the pulpits across America. "We can stop sinning, the known sins." They turn our eyes to the "unknown sins," and spark a debate that rages on for hundreds of years. Behold the fruit of their labors!
Certainly, when a man walks in the flesh (and does not hearken to the Holy Spirit) there will be sins in his life of which he's unaware. The very fact that these unknown sins are mentioned demonstrates they are either unaware, or disbelieving that we can walk in the Spirit every moment of every day of our lives, and thus "avoid" the known and the unknown sins. They leave off this possibility, for whatever reason, and dismiss it.
Yes, in the flesh of our own minds, there are unknowns, unknown sins, unknown prides, unknown desires, yet, where do we begin? We begin with the known. This is what the religious theologians tell us to do, "cease from the known sins, brothers." Admirable. Yet, do they?
Do they, themselves "cease from the known sins?"
Do they start with God's written moral law, the ten commandments, and scrutinize their own behaviors and teach their flock to do the same?
Do they go down the list, one by one, and confirm, "yes, I have ceased from this one?"
When they come to the fourth commandment, "keep the sabbath day holy?" Do they stop and see the "seventh day command," and say, "wait a minute, am I observing this one?"
Do they hear the gentle tug of the Holy Spirit, saying, "here's a known, know ye it?"
No, they do not, they return to their flocks the following Sunday and repeat the "rhetoric" one more time.
"Cease from the known sins," they say, and everyone nods in agreement, then put their scriptures away until next Sunday. Their lives are full, they are Christians and everyone knows that Christians do not sin "the known sins." They are "Holy," because they acknowledge with their mouths, "we must cease from the known sins."
The Holy Spirit weeps, for once again, they do not have ears to hear!
This "trick" is repeated all across America. Satan laughs, for his "distraction," has worked again!
"Therefore shall God send them a strong delusion, so that they all might believe a lie."
Shalom
The religious theologians speak their truths from the pulpits across America. "We can stop sinning, the known sins." They turn our eyes to the "unknown sins," and spark a debate that rages on for hundreds of years. Behold the fruit of their labors!
Certainly, when a man walks in the flesh (and does not hearken to the Holy Spirit) there will be sins in his life of which he's unaware. The very fact that these unknown sins are mentioned demonstrates they are either unaware, or disbelieving that we can walk in the Spirit every moment of every day of our lives, and thus "avoid" the known and the unknown sins. They leave off this possibility, for whatever reason, and dismiss it.
Yes, in the flesh of our own minds, there are unknowns, unknown sins, unknown prides, unknown desires, yet, where do we begin? We begin with the known. This is what the religious theologians tell us to do, "cease from the known sins, brothers." Admirable. Yet, do they?
Do they, themselves "cease from the known sins?"
Do they start with God's written moral law, the ten commandments, and scrutinize their own behaviors and teach their flock to do the same?
Do they go down the list, one by one, and confirm, "yes, I have ceased from this one?"
When they come to the fourth commandment, "keep the sabbath day holy?" Do they stop and see the "seventh day command," and say, "wait a minute, am I observing this one?"
Do they hear the gentle tug of the Holy Spirit, saying, "here's a known, know ye it?"
No, they do not, they return to their flocks the following Sunday and repeat the "rhetoric" one more time.
"Cease from the known sins," they say, and everyone nods in agreement, then put their scriptures away until next Sunday. Their lives are full, they are Christians and everyone knows that Christians do not sin "the known sins." They are "Holy," because they acknowledge with their mouths, "we must cease from the known sins."
The Holy Spirit weeps, for once again, they do not have ears to hear!
This "trick" is repeated all across America. Satan laughs, for his "distraction," has worked again!
"Therefore shall God send them a strong delusion, so that they all might believe a lie."
Shalom
Upvote
0
TwoWitnessesUSdotcom
Active Member
Luchnia said:
Actually, I can't elaborate on the New Testament, because the New Testament does not recognize "unknown" sins! This is because, the only time there are sins in your life that are unknown to you, it means you are walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit, and the New Testament discourages that.
In the First Testament (what some call "old" testament), some mention is made of sins that are hidden from you because of your ignorance.
John Wesley quoted "if I sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth," and then made an issue of it saying that we can sin "by accident" and they are not "wilfull" sins. Shrug!
If you read my posts, I refute most of this. It doesn't work that way under the Spirit who leads and guides you into all truth.
Shalom
J. Dean
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
nephilimiyr
I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open
- Jan 21, 2003
- 23,432
- 1,799
- 60
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
Yes christians can sin, we are not suppose to but sometimes we fall and need to ask God to forgive us of that sin and then we need to repent that we don't make the same mistake again.
Paul as well as other New Testament writters open their letters with a salutation. In that salutation they refer to the readers as the children of God or as saints etc., etc., but yet alot of the time the reason they have written those letters is because of the sins of the readers of the letter.
1 Corinthians 1:2, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are santified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ.
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all Knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
Paul makes it very clear that those who this letter is written to are christians. To them that are SANCTIFIED IN Christ, Called to be SAINTS, Jesus Christ OUR Lord, peace from God OUR Father, and Christ was CONFIRMED in you are only terms that Paul can use if he believe's he is talking to christians, true believers in Christ. But wait!!! this letter Paul is writting is a letter to reprove, to condemn, to correct the actions of the readers. So therefore if Paul believed these people who this letter was written to were in sin then how could he use the terms he used for the salutation?
1 Cor. 3:3, For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
What is Paul telling these Christians in chapter 3? I believe what he's saying is that the christians of Corinth were still living as if they belonged to this world but because they were in fact believers in Christ and living under grace they needed to put the world behind them. Therefore Paul is also saying that living a perfect, sin free life as a child of God not only takes time but that during this time one is still saved as long as they seek forgiveness and repent.
Was not Peter a christian when he lied saying he knew not this Jesus? John 18:25, And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am Not. See, even one who thinks he loves Jesus more than life itself is able to sin.
Paul as well as other New Testament writters open their letters with a salutation. In that salutation they refer to the readers as the children of God or as saints etc., etc., but yet alot of the time the reason they have written those letters is because of the sins of the readers of the letter.
1 Corinthians 1:2, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are santified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ.
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all Knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
Paul makes it very clear that those who this letter is written to are christians. To them that are SANCTIFIED IN Christ, Called to be SAINTS, Jesus Christ OUR Lord, peace from God OUR Father, and Christ was CONFIRMED in you are only terms that Paul can use if he believe's he is talking to christians, true believers in Christ. But wait!!! this letter Paul is writting is a letter to reprove, to condemn, to correct the actions of the readers. So therefore if Paul believed these people who this letter was written to were in sin then how could he use the terms he used for the salutation?
1 Cor. 3:3, For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
What is Paul telling these Christians in chapter 3? I believe what he's saying is that the christians of Corinth were still living as if they belonged to this world but because they were in fact believers in Christ and living under grace they needed to put the world behind them. Therefore Paul is also saying that living a perfect, sin free life as a child of God not only takes time but that during this time one is still saved as long as they seek forgiveness and repent.
Was not Peter a christian when he lied saying he knew not this Jesus? John 18:25, And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am Not. See, even one who thinks he loves Jesus more than life itself is able to sin.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
