Sex Before Marriage

9th March 2003 at 08:47 PM Rae said this in Post #7

As far as I'm concerned, if two consenting adults have sexual relations, take adequate precautions against spread of disease/unwanted pregnancy, and have no prohibitions against having sex due to (e.g.) having a life partner who expects exclusive sexual expression within their relationship...then it's fine with me.

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Ditto.

I was 17 when I decided to wait for sex until marriage, however 1 year ago I changed my veiwpoint. I don't regret my previous decision though, since I think it made me have a somewhat relaxed relation to sex.

Hi all!

We (orthodox Jews) infer the Biblical ban on pre-marital sex from the first clause of Deuteronomy 23:18 and from Leviticus 18:3.

Please allow me to recycle an old post:

Orthodox Judaism takes a very positive view of both procreational and recreational sexual relations between a husband and wife, in the context of a loving marriage and as per the Torah's laws on "family purity." Lemme explain.

From Exodus 21:10, our Sages teach that a Jewish husband owes his wife three things: food, clothing & sexual relations. Indeed, the Jewish view of sex is that it is the wife's right & the husband's obligation to meet that right and NOT the other way 'round. Our Sages teach that when a husband & wife unite in the act of love, the Divine Presence rests upon them. Recreational sex can, and should be, one of the ways that a husband & wife become closer to each other (figuratively; the literal is obvious) & deepen their mutual love and respect for each other (the respect part is crucial). Thus, it is a positive Torah precept even for a couple which cannot bring their own biological children into the world (i.e., one or both partners are infertile) to have sexual relations (such as described above) on a regular basis. The positive Torah precept to procreate is something else.

Ecclesiastes 3:5 speaks of, “A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing.” Our Sages teach that King Solomon is referring to the Torah's concept of “family purity.” In short (based on Leviticus 15:28, among other verses), with the onset of a wife's period, she & her husband immediately cease not only sexual relations, but all physical contact whatsoever. For both the 5-days (5 days is the minimum) of her menstrual flow and (as per Leviticus 15:28) for seven continuously clean days thereafter, she & her husband refrain from any & all physical contact and should take care not to be in a state of undress in each other's presence. After nightfall, after the 7 day period is over, the wife goes to a mikveh (a specially made, ritual bath/pool) and, after completely disrobing & taking off all jewelery, immerses herself while saying the following blessing: “Praised are You, Lord our God, King of All Creation, who has sanctified us with His precepts and commanded us regarding immersion.” She immerses herself in the presence of a woman attendant who makes sure that even her hair is under the surface of the water. When she goes home, she & her husband may resume physical contact & sexual relations until her next period.

At least some of the water in the mikveh MUST be natural, i.e, rainwater, melted snow, etc. (Technically, a woman can immerse herself in any natural body of water but she she MUST be 100% naked & the immersion can ONLY take place after dark, this is generally impractical in the extreme. Thus, 99.99999% of woman regularly use a proper, kosher mikveh (i.e. one that was built, and is maintained, under orthodox rabbinical supervision.) A bride goes to the mikveh for the first time in her life on the night before the wedding.

By obeying the Torah's relevant precepts on this matter, we take the sexual act and invest it with sanctity and make it holy (in much the same way that keeping kosher, saying the blessings before & after meals, etc. invest the act of eating with sanctity and make it holy). Speaking from direct, personal experience, this system is absolutely marvelous. First of all, it teaches the husband that his wife's body is not his toy. It helps teach him restraint (do we control our passions and appetites or do they control us?) and respect for his wife as a woman & a person. It helps prevent a couple from becoming bored with each other over time. It helps prevent this most unique and intimate form of interpersonal communication (so unique and intimate that the Torah reserves it for a husband and wife ONLY) from becoming routine, mundane, humdrum, trite, etc. It is like having a mini-honeymoon every month throughout their life together & helps ensure that this aspect of a married couple's relationship is fresh and exciting, always. It helps, no, forces, a couple to, during the 12 days' time when they may have no contact, develop ways other than the physical for expressing their love & respect for each other; if sex is the major glue keeping a couple together, that marriage is in trouble.

Animals copulate; only human beings can make love. If a husband and wife do not treat each other with constant respect and devotion, then we become no better than animals that are driven and ruled by their urges & impulses.

There's a story that a rabbi & his wife were just getting into bed one Friday night when the rabbi heard a strange noise. He looked around & found one of his students hiding under the bed. Enraged, the rabbi put on his shorts, yanked the student out from under the bed, clamped him in a headlock & began dragging toward the door. “What were you doing under our bed?” the rabbi cried. "I'm supposed to learn Torah from you," the student replied. “So??!!” the Rabbi asked. “Well,” replied the student, “what you and your wife were about to do is Torah.” The rabbi then did two things. He congratulated his student on being 100% correct...and then chucked him out.

On a more...mechanical...note, technically, a husband & wife can do pretty much whatever they like together. However, a husband and wife should always keep Leviticus 19:2 in mind, “Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel and say unto them: 'You shall be holy; for I the Lord your God am holy.” Even during sexual relations, especially during sexual relations, a couple must keep in mind this positive injunction to be holy.

Sexual relations outside of marriage are strongly frowned upon and not permitted. (Orthodox) Judaism believes that homosexual, lesbian, bestial and non-consensual heterosexual acts (even in the context of marriage) are inherently sinful at all times and in every context.

My impression is that the popular media in the US (and Israel, where I've been living for 16 years) offers a very skewed and warped view of sexuality in that it divests this sacred act of its inherent holiness, and demeans, cheapens, trivializes it, and changes it into something mundane and trite. It is also horribly demeaning to women & exhibits them as one would a side of beef; it portrays women not as people but as the sum of certain body parts. (Please! I do not advocate censorship!!! What I don't like, I don't watch & don't let my children watch.) inappropriate contentography takes the foregoing to the extreme. (Orthodox) Judaism believes that our inherent nobility, worth & beauty as people are not predicated on the subjective attractiveness of our bodies.

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Here's another recycle:

The Patriarchs and other great men in the Tanakh were polygamous, although our Sages tell us that they were exceptions to the general rule and until it was banned, polygamy was very uncommon. Of all the myriad Sages mentioned in the Talmud, ferinstance, none is mentioned as having more than one wife. Jewish law did permit a man to take more than one wife as long as he could support them all equally. But around 1000 CE (what we say instead of "AD"), leading European rabbis pronounced a ban on polygamy, which, as I've said, was never very widespread anyway. This ban was eventually adopted by rabbis in Islamic countries as well, except for Yemen. Polygamy, as rare as it was, was not unknown among the now, all-but-vanished Yemenite Jewish community. Most Yemenite Jews have moved to Israel. While the Israeli Chief Rabbinate has confirmed & reissued the ban on polygamy for all Jews, those Yemenite Jews who came to Israel with more than one wife were not required to divorce all but one. There still are a few elderly polygamous Yemenite Jews still living but as they pass on, the institution will die with them.

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Questions?

Be well!

ssv

3rd April 2003 at 02:52 AM Hoof beats said this in Post #44

I totally think that sex before marrige is wrong. I believe God intended for people to have sex only when married.

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Well sex is the things that starts a marriage... So having sex should make you married atleast according to the OT.

I beleive that many cannot find biblical support for pre-martial sex because of word changes in modern biblical translations. I read a book titled, 'new age bible versions' which outlines the changes from the original texts. For example, most modern versions substitute fornication, which clearly refers to sex outside of marriage, with 'sexual immorality which denotes that it is relative. When you look at the KJV, by far the most accurate, you can find a plethora of verses which are against fornication. I'm too lazy to quote them right now, but mabye later tonight

Hi. I am going to skip over all these other post because there are frankly too many to read in less than an hour.
I think that there is nothing wrong with premarital sex. As long as people take the nececarry precautions against venerial diseases and respect their lover, then that's all that matters isn't it? Plus, if a person waits until they are married, that means that they will have terrible sex, embarrassing themselves and their lover. They will have all the jitters of being a virgin AND a new husband or wife. Face it, it isn't fair to either side.

It's okay to be inexperianced in bed. It means you need to devote a lot of time to practice after you the wedding.

Woaw!!! I have seriously been away from christianforums.com for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time!!!! So I'll spend a penny here...

I haven't had sex yet, although at only 17 (2 months from 18!!! YAY!) and at college, simply going out to night clubs just to satisfy any desire they have, is common place. Although protection is used, and so far there have been no 'accidents' (...sure that would make the kid feel wonderful though knowing they were an accident!).


"Every year nearly 80 million unintended pregnancies occur worldwide"

80 million out of the 20 billion in this world, are pretty goods odds aren't they really?.......

However, just look again at that number and think about it, 80 million...blimey, that is a fair few people really. And when you think about it, if there's 80 million, what's going to stop it being you?...Do you want to start being somebody different and special, or become another stastic?


It may be hard to refuse at times, but something that helps me is that I realise that, there are very few things we can actually be sure of in the world, either because of changing values, or because we simply don't know what to do. If I do give in to the desires, then I would loose everything I'm sure of, in this case, knowing that if I avoid it I've done right. But if I loose this safehouse I've got then, I'll loose the thing I'm most sure of and then I won't know if the thing I've done is actually right...



Tyranthus
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Picking up just a tad bit of a conflict there...you say its ok if you respect the other person, however do you really think that respect is just seeing how far you can get down somebodys pants in the 1/2 hour you have before the parents get back?...or just 'practising' on them to make sure that for that big night, you're all prepared? Besides how would you know you've had terrible sex, unless you've had something to compare it to? Or for the jitters, would you seriously be nervous around the one who loves you with everything they have?....I mean, sex is a way of showing intimacy, so I hope you don't practice praying on anything to get it right for God, or start breaking out into a sweat if you pray to God because you're nervous! (just messing around with you on the last couple of points! so don't be offended! )
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by the way, that thing about spending a penny here, I'm not actually meaning that I'm going to take a pee...just incase anybody got the wrong idea.


Well that's me done!!! See you all later!
Aaron


*cough* If in doubt throw it out!!! *cough*

FOMWatts:

Some advice for your brother....

Is he interested in following God, of following his passions? I know that the desire to have sex can be very strong, and very convincing, but when I became a christian i agreed to "give my life to God" i.e. to serve Him only. Not my passions. He has promised to be with me, and to give me his spirit, and to bless me, and be my fatherand to welcome me into his presence when i die. I think it is a very good deal

So who is your brother serving? Himself or God.

I know that when i served myself (even when I called myself a christian) my passions justified almost anything, and proof to the opposite was almost non-existant. But now that I serve God, I ask Him what I should do. Even though I reallylove my fiance (and feel very passionately about her ) we have asked God what he wants us to do, and we are both certain that He wants us to wait. So we will.


Ask your brother what god wants him to do, and if he isn't sure, ask him if it really matters to him what God wants him to do. If he really wants to serve God, he should pray about it, read the bible, and decide for himself what God wants him to do.

Hope this helps

Anybody who cares to read the original Greek New Testament will find that inappropriate contentIA, "Consorting with a Prostitute," has been translated to English as "fornication", which may have meant the same at one time, but now denotes pre-marital sex. I would urge people to research things before judging people. I was particularly disgusted with an earlier message about how anyone who agrees with me is trying to justiry his "one night stand with Tammy at the stop-off Cafe". By implying that all pre-marital sex is based on lust, this his person shows that he obviously does not believe in love before marriage, either, which would make marriage a pretty useless institution, therefore it would not matter when we had sex - it would all have to be loveless and lust-based.
The one inference we can make from all of God's laws is that He created sex for a special purpose - the ultimate expression of love. I personally doubt Jesus would approve of loveless wedded sex... but the best we can to to honor what we do know of Jesus is to refrain from judgement in light of such uncertainty, and to respect sex for what God made it to be - the pinnacle of intimacy, not to be taken lightly.

FOMWatts<>< said:

Hello all!

I have a friend that is a good bit younger than me and he is very knowledgable of the Bible, but very offensive if I, OR ANYONE, tries to guide him to a truth of scripture.

He has a passion for knowledge, but is definetly a political person. For the most part we agree on theology and philosophy. Where we differ is important to me. He changes his views a lot on many things, but this one and others really bother me.,

He believes that it is okay to have sex before marriage. He thinks it is okay, because God gave us the urges to be sexually involved and He would not expect us to refrain from anything with such a strong passion.

I have provided him with scripture on morality and sexual IMmorality, but he says that sexual immorality is having sex with a prostitute. He also changes denominations a lot. Not seriously, but if he hears that a certain denomination has a belief he likes he says, "Well I'm a presbyterian." (I use that example because there is some type of presbyterian that believes sex is okay before marriage)

He seems to go where his itching ears lead him. He used to love debating theology, but it seems that when he knows he is wrong he refuses to debate saying that it causes disunity. I am not trying to debate but show him scripture.

Anyway, enough venting. Tell me what you think about sex befroe marriage and use Biblical support...

FOMWatts<><

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I find nothing wrogn with sex b4 marriage.

Me either... I don't find anything wrong with sex before marriage. I think it can open the relationship to a higher degree of intimacy. However, if one person is not comfortable with sex b4 marriage then, of course that MUST always be respected by the other (If he can't do that, well then you at least know where the relationship stands). This may not be biblical advice but, respect is always a good thing.

Well, let's face it, marriage is a state of mind more so then a piece of paper saying you're married.

If a couple has been dating for 4 years and have lived together for the last several years, yet are not married, and another couple have been going out for 2 months and got married without giving it much consideration, who is really "married"? o, i think as long as you are mentally married, sex before marriage on paper is A-OK.

On the surface, it appears as if the New Testament does not specifically condemn premarital sex. For example, if you look in a Greek dictionary to find the meanings of the original Greek words for "fornication" or "sexual immorality," you'll find that premarital sex is not usually included in the definitions for those Greek words. But the important question is, what does the New Testament reveal about the heart of God concerning premarital sex?

Notice that sexual immorality is a sin against our own bodies, and that we are to flee from sexual immorality:


"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit." (1 Corinthians 6:15-17)

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." (Ephesians 5:3)

So we are commanded to flee from sexual immorality and not allow even a hint of sexual immorality in our lives. These are strong words, so it is important that we make the right decision about whether or not premarital sex is included in "sexual immorality." In Genesis 2:24 God said that when a husband and wife are united, they become "one flesh." This is proper within marriage, but in 1 Corinthians 6:16 (above) the apostle Paul said that if a man unites himself with a prostitute then "The two will become one flesh." In that context, this is clearly a sin. Paul used prostitutes as an example, but we can see from 1 Corinthians 6:15-17 (above) and Genesis 2:24 that when we unite ourselves sexually with someone else then we become "one flesh" with that person. In the Bible, the only time that it is acceptable to be "one flesh" with someone is when you are married to that person. The implication from all of this is that premarital sex is a sin.

Now notice how harshly God condemns sexual immorality:


"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
"We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did--and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died." (1 Corinthians 10:8)

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." (Hebrews 13:4)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

These passages say that the "sexually immoral" will not inherit the kingdom of God, but instead they will be judged and will be sent to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Christians will not be sent to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, but the above passages give us a very clear idea of the heart of God concerning sexual immorality. God has a harsh view of any kind of immorality, so if we are going to err then we should try to err on the side of purity. For example, the apostle Paul said that the Church is going to be presented as a pure virgin bride to Christ:


"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Corinthians 11:2)
This indicates that purity and virginity are highly valued before marriage. Premarital sex takes away that purity and virginity. For those who have already lost that purity before marriage, however, God is willing to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). As Christian recording artist Rebecca St. James says, if we have made the mistake of having sex before marriage then we can repent and give our sexuality back to God and become "recycled virgins."

Notice that the apostle Paul said that if single people cannot control their sexual desires then they should get married:


"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)
The original Greek in 1 Corinthians 7:9 says "for it is better to marry than to burn" (Young's Literal Translation). The Greek word means to burn with lust or anger or grief (Strong's Greek Dictionary). In other words, if people are not able to be celibate (as Paul was) and they find themselves burning with sexual desire, then they should get married so that they don't commit sexual sins. The implication is that sex is only valid within marriage, as the following passage also indicates:


"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman [or, "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman," according to the NIV footnote]. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:1-2, KJV)
Notice that immediately after mentioning sex, Paul said that people should get married in order to avoid fornication. The context indicates that people should get married in order to avoid the sin of having sex outside of marriage. In the very next passage, Paul called sex a "marital duty":


"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife." (1 Corinthians 7:3-4)
Again, Paul's message is that sex belongs within marriage. It is a marital duty (or privilege), and Paul has already said that being married helps people avoid "fornication" (which in the context implies premarital sex).

Finally, Paul said that a man should treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity:


"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity." (1 Timothy 5:1-2)
Since single men are to treat single women as their mothers or sisters, that pretty much rules out premarital sex! Notice that marriage is allowed in the New Testament, which means that at the appropriate time a man can stop treating a girl as his sister and begin treating her as his wife. Until that point, however, he is told to treat her as his sister with absolute purity, which would seem to imply that he cannot have premarital sex with her.

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I think that if you are going to have sex before marriage, it should at least be with someone that you are considering marrying.

Hi, JW! Welcome to the boards!

I think that if you are going to have sex before marriage, it should at least be with someone that you are considering marrying.

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What does that mean? If you are SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING MARRYING, is there any reason NOT to wait? I know people are loathe to click on links, but I wrote a booklet on SEX; it's frank and honest, not preachy, not vulgar nor offensive.

Please click here for the booklet...

I would never marry a man I'd not "known". What if it's really bad? Then you're stuck....

I think that sex before marriage is a toss up. I had sex before marriage. I wanted to wait but pressure and evrything else had it happen before. I have only been with one person and that is my husband. I would have rather waited but I didn't. I also very much agree with birth controll. But I think that if you are in a realationship with a person but you two don't want to get married for some reason then yeah I think it is ok becasue their are so may peole out there who by common law are married and these days who says you need to have a stupid peice of paper saying that you are married. If you tow make a verbal commintment to each other before God on you rown then yeah it is fine.

We should teach abstinance always until marriage. I was not a virgin when I got married and I regretted it. I asked for Gods forgiveness but it still caused alot of problems in my life, having sex before marriage is one of the biggest wastes that you can do. So take it from someone who has been there. Obey God and wait til your wedding night.

I have no problem with it. The idea of sex itself being a sin is almost entirely a Christian concept. Though I see the merits of it at the time when there was no birth control, nowadays I feel the idea holds no sway.

Do whatever makes you happy so long as it doesn't impede anyone elses attempts at happiness.

The reason we don't see anything in the bible about premarital sex is because there is no such thing.

When you have sex with someone, guess what, you are married. It's a blood covenant. The two become one flesh.

This whole notion that you are married when the pastor says "i now pronounce you husband and wife" is silly. Your marriage is not consmmated until you sleep together.

Why else did Paul talk about not sleeping with a prostitute? Because you would become one flesh with them. Why else did Jacob take Leah into his tent and marry her (don't try and tell me there was a pastor/priest there asking them for their vows)? Because sex is the biblical concept of marriage.

When you sleep with someone, you are both acknowledging the fact that you are joined before the Lord. Anything less than that is degrading the meaning of sex.