question

If god is supernatural and can interact with nature and then why is it that the universe is always determinatstic. If God is omniscient and omnipotent and if he is the creator of the of the universe every action would be his to control. If things have determinable actions then it means god lets them be determinable. He could just as easily not allow objects to do determinable actions and do things that defy all reasoning...projectales could travel in rectangalable path, planets could orbit in perfect circles, the laws of nature could just change. Obviously such things do not happen for if they did the theorys of Physics could never had formed because results would be inconsistent and undetermiable. But lets say then that god created the universe and made it natural and determinable by a set of logical laws. Why would he ever create such laws...

The universe isn't deterministic.

bishnu said:

If god is supernatural and can interact with nature and then why is it that the universe is always determinatstic. If God is omniscient and omnipotent and if he is the creator of the of the universe every action would be his to control. If things have determinable actions then it means god lets them be determinable. He could just as easily not allow objects to do determinable actions and do things that defy all reasoning...projectales could travel in rectangalable path, planets could orbit in perfect circles, the laws of nature could just change. Obviously such things do not happen for if they did the theorys of Physics could never had formed because results would be inconsistent and undetermiable. But lets say then that god created the universe and made it natural and determinable by a set of logical laws. Why would he ever create such laws...

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you would expect mebe a perfect God to create complete choas maybe instead?


I think He did it just to drive you guys nuts

I think He did it just to drive you guys nuts

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Funny that, being that he's not suppose to be the author of confusion.

the universe is determintistic even with quantum mechanics

Douglaangu said:

Funny that, being that he's not suppose to be the author of confusion.

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You might want to look at the context in which your ''confusion'' passage is written

Follower of Christ said:

You might want to look at the context in which your ''confusion'' passage is written

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Would you be willing to do the same for the entirety of Genesis?

bishnu said:

the universe is determintistic even with quantum mechanics

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With chaos at the large scale and QM at the small, what makes you think the universe is deterministic?

USincognito said:

Would you be willing to do the same for the entirety of Genesis?

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Already have..

as a matter of fact, I bought your evol. right up til the point where I did break down and study Hebrew and Genesis one..

You folks assume WAY too much...

Not all of us are the big ignorant hillbilllies you want us to be...

michabo said:

With chaos at the large scale and QM at the small, what makes you think the universe is deterministic?

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There's one respect in which it certianly is, and that's on the basis of the nature of space-time. Remember, the only reason it looks to us like time always flows in one direction at a constant rate is that we're all living on the same tiny planet where space-time isn't curved very much. From certain points of view, it could look like World War II happened before the industrial revolution--and it wouldn't violate the laws of physics if it did, because all physical processes can also occur in reverse.

From the moment of the Big Bang, everything that would ever happen in the universe had already happened from certain points of view. This suggests to me that God created all of time at once.

Anyway, as for why God made the universe in such a way that it could operate without his direct intervention, I think it's just a testament to his genius as a designer. It's not too hard to make a space station that needs supplies delivered to it on a rocket every week, but it truly takes a superhuman degree of planning to create a universe that can operate independently for 14 billion years.

Aggie said:

Remember, the only reason it looks to us like time always flows in one direction at a constant rate is that we're all living on the same tiny planet where space-time isn't curved very much. From certain points of view, it could look like World War II happened before the industrial revolution--and it wouldn't violate the laws of physics if it did, because all physical processes can also occur in reverse.

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What does any of this have to do with the universe being determanistic?

The best you've shown is that the past is fixed and if you imagine yourself at the end of time, then all of the time preceeding this is also fixed. Well so? That gedankenexperiment doesn't come close to demonstrating that things are determanistic.

Chaos and QM are still determinsitic. A chaotic system is impossible even by therory to figure out but what it will do but it still follows determinable laws. The reason they cant be determined is that you would have know with perfect percision every factor and variable. Since no measurment device is peferct it impossible to do with our equations but that doesnt mean that its random. They still follow the same laws just they interact in a way where they are highly depent on intial conditons. QM are still determintistic. They just represent probablites but these probabbilites are always followed.

If god could create the universe to exist he make it anyway he wants. He could just fiat that people can move and think it doesnt have to make sense how. He could just fiat anything he wanted he doesnt have to make a vastly more complex system.

michabo said:

What does any of this have to do with the universe being determanistic?

The best you've shown is that the past is fixed and if you imagine yourself at the end of time, then all of the time preceeding this is also fixed. Well so? That gedankenexperiment doesn't come close to demonstrating that things are determanistic.

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Not just that. The relativistic status of the future is exactly the same as the past, and the division between the two depends only on one's point of view.

In other words, the future is just as fixed as the past.

bishnu said:

the universe is determintistic even with quantum mechanics

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THe universe only looks deterministic because quantum events follow predictable percentages. For instance, shine a light on a mirror and 95% of the photons are always reflected and 5% always go thru. But you can never determine which photon will be reflected and which goes thru.

You can link the indeterminism of the quantum world with the macro world. For instance, you could hook up a computer mouse with a vial of radioactivity such that the particle would interact with the directional signals of the mouse. The mouse's movements would then be indeterminant. You could never predict what the next movement of the mouse would be.

Evolution also links the indeterminism of the quantum world with the macro world. Mutations, particularly point mutations, are quantum events. But the machinery of embryonic development converts that quantum event to a macro object -- a multicelled organism. This is one reason that variation is said to be "random". Variation -- mutation -- is not predictable at all.

Aggie said:

Not just that. The relativistic status of the future is exactly the same as the past, and the division between the two depends only on one's point of view.

In other words, the future is just as fixed as the past.

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Aggie, this is what QM disproved. The future is open.

Aggie said:

There's one respect in which it certianly is, and that's on the basis of the nature of space-time. Remember, the only reason it looks to us like time always flows in one direction at a constant rate is that we're all living on the same tiny planet where space-time isn't curved very much.

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There are physical reactions that do have an arrow of time. Kaon decay is one and you can find others if you do a little deeper reading into physics. It used to be thought that the arrow of time was reversible in physics, but it turns out that this is not true.