Activists Protest Boy Scout Conference in Chicago

Great post Jeremiah. You stated your position beautifully without having to resort to sarcasm and you made your point well. Kudos!

Do homosexual organizations contribute to the community in any way aside from caller other people bigots and haters?

Do they build benches for schools? Do they find lost people in the woods? Do they educate people on how not to get lost in the woods? Do they teach people how ot budget money? Do they teach people how to store and cook food or how to plan decent meals? Do they recycle newspapers? Do they encourage young people to live by a code of conduct? Do they encourage people to respect the beliefs of others? Do they encourage people to help others?

Until someone can establish a homosexual organization that is comparable to that of the Boy Scouts or at least demonstrate some of those characteristics in their organizations, then I am not prepared to accept people like that into my Scout troop. If someone demonstrated some of the characteristics that I have seen in the homosexual movement, then he would probably be politely asked to leave my scout troop based on his conduct. If the homosexuals could show the self control necessary for a civil exchange of ideas, then I might be prepared to accept them into my scout troop. However, I have not seen that.

Blindfaith said:

Great post Jeremiah. You stated your position beautifully without having to resort to sarcasm and you made your point well. Kudos!

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Is that a trait that Jerimiah is prone to to; sarcasm I mean?
I can't really say that I've noticed that myself.
It's good that Jeremiah has friends like yourself, looking out for him; and encouraging when he does good.
Well done.

Is that a trait that Jerimiah is prone to to; sarcasm I mean?
I can't really say that I've noticed that myself.

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Oh no!! Not at all!! I'm so sorry if that's the way my post came across. Shoot! No, what I meant was that he stated his position beautifully, kept a calm and civil composure while making his points, which is really impressive in this forum!

Thanks for pointing that out to me Existential!!

brewmama said:

As for the sex abuse statistics, try the Catholic Church priest scandal. That was by far a homosexual post-pubescent male occurrance. About 90% or so fit that description. That alone should shut everyone up about the Boy Scouts and get them off their back about gay Scout leaders.

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Are you claiming that all Catholic priests are homosexual?

Or, that all molesting Catholic priests are homosexual.?

Or, what exactly?

I've never seen a reputable scientific study that examined abuse by priests, or nuns: in terms of either isolating homosexuality as a variable; or wieghting it as a causal one.

brewmama said:

Activists Protest Boy Scout Conference in Chicago




http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewCulture...L20040521b.html

"Peter LaBarbera, executive director of the Illinois Family Institute, said, "The vitriol mouthed by homosexual militants far surpasses anything coming from the Scouts and their defenders.

"We remind the public that 'Morality Is Not Prejudice,' despite fervent attempts by 'gay' activists to redefine Judeo-Christian teachings as bigotry and 'homophobia.'"



Amen and amen

Just who are the real bigots?

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I went searching for an unbiased source for this story but couldn’t find any.

MSNNBC has nothing on this story.

I could find nothing on the Associated Press website about this story

Foxnews.com has noting on this story but when doing a search on this it will refer you to Yahoo which will link one directly to the same article brewmama linked to.



The Boy Scouts of America web page has nothing about their convention in Chicago being protested.



Looking at the story itself I was amazed at the bias and the unprofessional way it was written.



So how many of these activists were there?

What did this protest consist of?

Strangely enough the article did not actually say.





From the article linked by brewmama:

“The Chicago Anti-Bashing Network -- one of the groups protesting the Boy Scouts of America National Council Conference -- has described the BSA organization as "one of the country's most virulently anti-gay organizations, aggressively purging gays from its ranks and fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for the right to fire its gay employees."

There are two things to note here: first that the article is worded to imply that The Chicago Anti-Bashing Network said this at their mass protest of the above mentioned Boy Scouts conference is Chicago…it did not.

Second, what The Chicago Anti-Bashing Network said is essentially true and noted by both polycarp and brewmama.



From the article linked by brewmama:

“Peter LaBarbera, executive director of the Illinois Family Institute, said, "The vitriol mouthed by homosexual militants far surpasses anything coming from the Scouts and their defenders.””

What exactly was said at the conference?

Who said it?

Exactly what constitutes “vitriol”?

Of course the article fails to mention these things.



From the article linked by brewmama:

“On its website, the Chicago Anti-Bashing Network blasts the Boy Scouts for "sending a horrible message, amounting to child abuse, to LGBT youth who find themselves in the Scouts."”

Again note that the article implies that the above was said at the strangely unreported protest of the conference.

I would note that brewmama made the same unsupported claims about gay men and homosexuals in general which amounts to child abuse.

The website for

the Chicago Anti-Bashing Network is: http://www.cabn.org/

details the “protest” and describes it as “candlelight vigil”



Thursday, May 20 at 6 PM: Candlelight March and Vigil. Gather at Park located at Michigan, Oak and Lake Shore Drive, then march on the sidewalk south along Michigan Avenue to Hyatt-Regency Hotel. Each light will represent 100s of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender youth who have taken their lives because of the homophobia taught by the Scouts and other institutions of society.



Apparently this is vitriol.



Another group that protested this conference (according to the Chicago Anti-Bashing Network) was scouting for all an organization that strangely thinks that scouting was intended to be available for all youth not just some youth.

http://www.scoutingforall.org/

brewmama said:

And I've seen proof otherwise.

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And what proof is that exactly.



Please share.

brewmama said:

I am saying that about 90% of the molesting Catholic priests are homosexual. This is in reference to the current situation in the news involving all the incidents in the 70's and 80's, after a mass increase in homosexual attendance in seminaries in the 60's.

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Who ascertained this designation as to these molesters being homosexual?

As celibate priests, there should have been no data indicating hetero-, or homo-, sexual orientation?

Just what was the methodology used is designating? What were the indicators used?

Again, what indice points to a mass increase in homosexual attendance in seminaries in the 60's?

Here's a link to the Chicago post...is that unbiasd enough for you,Volos?

Chicago Post [size=-1]... Activists Protest Boy Scout Conference in Chicago Crosswalk Susan Jones | Morning Editor, CNS News | Homosexual activists are protesting a Boy Scouts of America ...
archive.wn.com/chicagopost/ - 101k [/size]

Here is a piece of an article from Scouting for All

Today, homosexual activists led by such groups as "Queer to the Left," "Chicago Anti-Bashing Network," and
"Scouting for All," continue their vicious campaign against the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). They say that the Scouts are "bigots" because they do not allow homosexuals and atheists to be part of an organization that affirms belief in God and teaches boys to be "morally straight."
In reality, the homosexual lobby is practicing its own form of bigotry by demonizing individuals and groups for following a moral and faith tradition that has served humanity well for centuries. The hatred and vitriol mouthed by militant homosexual activists far surpasses anything espoused by the Scouts and their defenders. We remind the public that "Morality Is Not Prejudice," despite fervent attempts by "gay" activists to redefine Judeo-Christian teachings as bigotry and "homophobia."

http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/2004052303.shtml

sweetkitty said:

Here is a piece of an article from Scouting for All

Today, homosexual activists led by such groups as "Queer to the Left," "Chicago Anti-Bashing Network," and
"Scouting for All," continue their vicious campaign against the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). They say that the Scouts are "bigots" because they do not allow homosexuals and atheists to be part of an organization that affirms belief in God and teaches boys to be "morally straight."
In reality, the homosexual lobby is practicing its own form of bigotry by demonizing individuals and groups for following a moral and faith tradition that has served humanity well for centuries. The hatred and vitriol mouthed by militant homosexual activists far surpasses anything espoused by the Scouts and their defenders. We remind the public that "Morality Is Not Prejudice," despite fervent attempts by "gay" activists to redefine Judeo-Christian teachings as bigotry and "homophobia."


http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/2004052303.shtml

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This is exactly the rhetoric we should expect, and in fact require: as we move towards final battles with the forces sustaining prejudice against the homosexual; allthough it should be recognised that the rhetoric in this article, is light wieght scouting variety, ranging widely over media territory.

The big battles of heavy divisions nearly always has to do with the law, and with appointments.

What we must beware of, is misrepresentation.
Judeo-Christian teachings are not being redefined: rather, Homosexual implication is being discerned; and woven into some interpretation.
Individuals can be bigoted and homophobic: teachings can, at worst, only give perspective which might sustain these; the teachings themselves are unlikely to deserve the epithets.

brewmama said:

What I have read is in books and magazines, but I'm sure when statistics are presented showing abuse by the breakdown in age and sex, and you factor out the proportion of homosexuals in the general population and look at heterosexual men at large vs homosexual men at large, rather than putting in a tiny fraction into a large number to dilute it down the statistics will speak for themselves.

In other words, if you have 100 men, and 3 are gay (for the 3% homosexual number) and say hypothetically that 12 of those men are child sexual abusers, and that included the 3 gay men, you COULD say that there is a greater incidence of heterosexual child abuse, since there are 9 of them vs 3. But in reality, it would 100% VS 9%. So without clarifying these factors, you cannot say that chances are greater for heterosexual child abuse.

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I cannot criticise your statistical methods: as they remain disconnected from actual data; so your tools might be perfect, though entirely speculative.

Your origonal posting, I think, seemed to imply that it reported something in the world: in which case you require cooroborating data; and a specification of the methodology used to work it up to where you applied statistics to it.

Without that evidential corroboration, then your suggestion risks falling, however unfairly, as prejudice or detached conceptual speculation.

brewmama said:

No it isn't.

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are you saying that the BSA is not anti-gay?

Or are you saying that the BSA does not actively dismiss gay members form its ranks?

See below, I rest my case.

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As noted the accusations your linked article implied took place at the strangely un protest like protest did not actually take place at the Boy Scout Conference.

Uh, no, it says it's on their website.

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My point, it was not said at the conference as the article you linked us all to implies.





Tell me exactly why the message that if you are gay and you want to be a scout you have to be dishonest and pretend to be heterosexual is a positive message for anyone much less the youth scouting is supposed to be accepting and supporting

Say what?? I am performing child abuse??

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Perhaps if you bothered to actually read what was posted you would save yourself form making posts like this and actually be able to respond rather than react in this manner.



You have made unsupported accusations that gay men are more likely to molest children the same innuendo was put forth in the article you linked that gay men are somehow more likely to be child molesters than heterosexual men

Yeah, no joke.

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Help me understand what you are saying.



Are you saying that you think protesting teen suicide for any reason is a joke?

Or that homophobia plays some role in teen suicide is a joke?

Or are you agreeing with me that calling a candlelight vigil “vitriol” is offensive in the extreme?



What exactly do you mean?

Cool. So you guys can send all your little boys to THEM, and leave the Boy Scouts alone

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So you are assaying that scouting is not open to all youth but only SOME youth.

swetkitty said:

Here's a link to the Chicago post...is that unbiasd enough for you,Volos?

Chicago Post ... Activists Protest Boy Scout Conference in Chicago Crosswalk Susan Jones | Morning Editor, CNS News | Homosexual activists are protesting a Boy Scouts of America ...
archive.wn.com/chicagopost/ - 101k

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You realize thath what you are attempting to link us to is the article thath brewmama linked us to and not an article published by the Chicago post correct?



Note the same author Susan Jones, Morning Editor, CNS News.



This link is external to the post much like the link I found at FoxNews.com

brewmama said:

What I have read is in books and magazines, but I'm sure when statistics are presented showing abuse by the breakdown in age and sex, and you factor out the proportion of homosexuals in the general population and look at heterosexual men at large vs homosexual men at large, rather than putting in a tiny fraction into a large number to dilute it down the statistics will speak for themselves.

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You are saying you are SURE that WHEN statistics are presented and then manipulated in a particular way they will support your claim.



Far be it from me to point this out but in essence you are saying you do not have the proof you claim to have.

In other words, if you have 100 men, and 3 are gay (for the 3% homosexual number) and say hypothetically that 12 of those men are child sexual abusers, and that included the 3 gay men, you COULD say that there is a greater incidence of heterosexual child abuse, since there are 9 of them vs 3. But in reality, it would 100% VS 9%. So without clarifying these factors, you cannot say that chances are greater for heterosexual child abuse.

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Actually you cannot say that at all.



Try reading up on statistical analysis in social sciences.

Might I also suggest an interesting study completed by Carol Jenny. Jenny, C., Roesler, T. A., & Poyer, K. L. (1994). Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics, 94(1), 41-44.

Jenny first identified child sexual abusers and then looked at the sexual orientations of these individuals. What Jenny found is that homosexual men represented a significantly lower percentage of child sexual abusers than represented in the population as a whole, or about one half of one percent of the total cases.



If the number you claim (3%) as the percentage of homosexuals in the general population (and that is likely on the low end) then it is pretty plane that homosexuals are significantly less likely to sexually assault children period.

First off, I don't think that boys of typical Scouting age should be having sex with anybody -- gay or straight, same-age or adult. There's something about a committed lifelong marital relationship that needs to be picked up on.

Now, given that, I fail to see the problem with the boy who identifies as being of gay orientation and behaves in a civilized manner, being a part of Scouting and benefitting from it. (My hunch is that they'd be too afraid of the anger they'd get from propositioning another boy to ever try it, anyway.)

I think Jeremiah the Bullfrog said much the same thing in his long and well-written post.

The problem that many people have with B.S.A. is that the National Commission, which sets policy that it is incumbent on the local Councils and troops to follow, have stated that "no leader or member may be openly homosexual or atheist." While this works an injustice on the socially proper adult gay man who is not in the slightest interested in sex with boys, but rather wants to contribute to the community through volunteering as a Scout leader, it may well be justified in order to prevent the ephebephile interested in sex with post-pubescent boys from being able to make contact with them through Scouting. Make your own guess as to what the proportions are of these two groups. The first, however, does exist -- James Dale, the man I'm going to mention in a following paragraph, the folks that Existential1 mentioned in passing from when he was in British Scouting.

Key to my point, though, is that the boys themselves are excluded -- on the basis of honesty about orientation (or in some unfortunate cases rumor), not on having acted on that temptation. It would be difficult to define in a few words the benefits of Scouting, but the sense I get is that the gay adolescents become outsiders, bereft of the sense of camaraderie and accomplishment that typical boys get through things like Scouting. To purposefully push them into that role through a somewhat paranoid sense of what they might do in a worst-case scenario, strikes me as very much unfair to them, and to the other boys who might learn to get along with them and be able to deal with people who have a gay orientation.

As for Scouting For All, it's strongly supported by gay movements, but it itself is not gay, except fairly tangentially. It was started by a 16-year-old straight boy backed by his parents who was incensed when his longtime Scoutmaster, a gay man who was a neighbor of his against whom there had never been a complaint, was dismissed as a result of the national BSA ruling. Either before or after this, he heard about some kids at his school who had been thrown out of Scouting for admitting they'd been tempted to experiment with gay sex, word of this having gotten back to Scout executives. There was a picture in a magazine of the boy, his father and mother, and his girlfriend hugging him -- a sidebar gave her comments that she was proud of him for standing up for others who were unjustly discriminated against.

Volos or other gay men involved in this thread -- what about the question about community service? I know that HRC, GLAAD, GLSEN, and the like do not get into community service -- but neither do a lot of other advocacy organizations, like CWA and Natl Family Council. The only gay organizations that do community service that I know of around here are the MCC choir, which performs concerts to raise money for charitable causes, and HelpLine, a phone-in crisis center that is supported and staffed by a coalition of IIRC six organizations including a local gay group. But gays in the Raleigh area are not that publicly visible -- and in the small town I came from, the only out gay community folks were one restaurateur who would cater charitable events free or below cost and two gay lawyer brothers who volunteered time to be between them 1/3 the staff of the local legal aid agency.