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zippy2006

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Most people do good simply because it's good, even if they gain some level of social approval from it. The latter doesn't discredit the former.
I think a big part of the issue of the OP is a philosophy of individualism, of going against the crowd. Social mores are actually a good thing, and it is actually good to want to live up to social mores. Judaism and Christianity are communal, social religions, after all. Or to be more explicit, the desire to appear righteous to one's peers is a legitimate motivation. So when Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for tithing mint and dill while neglecting the weightier matters of the Law, he is not telling them to stop tithing mint and dill. Righteousness is not a dirty word for Jesus or Paul.
 
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partinobodycular

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I think a big part of the issue of the OP is a philosophy of individualism, of going against the crowd. Social mores are actually a good thing, and it is actually good to want to live up to social mores. Judaism and Christianity are communal, social religions, after all. Or to be more explicit, the desire to appear righteous to one's peers is a legitimate motivation. So when Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for tithing mint and dill while neglecting the weightier matters of the Law, he is not telling them to stop tithing mint and dill. Righteousness is not a dirty word for Jesus or Paul.

I'm glad that you followed up your previous post with the acknowledgment that seeking social approval isn't, in and of itself, a rampant evil. There's a difference between seeking social approval, and seeking social superiority. I do believe that Jesus was simply pointing out that the Pharisees were guilty of the latter.
 
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Neogaia777

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Perhaps we could apply Philippians 1:15-18 to some's attempts, or or some of our attempts to be or do or appear good or whatever? About motives/true intentions, and all of that? Versus outcomes, etc. Is all that matters is that the outcome is good, or that good is being done, etc?

Sure, we'd love it to be pure, or from pure motivations/intentions, etc, but is all that really matters is that the outcome is good/spreads good/perpetuates good, or that good is being done? I think this is something that is worth a discussion, or that might need to be discussed?
 
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Teofrastus

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The Protestant approach being counseled here is, "A number of people want to appear virtuous without acting virtuously, therefore we need to stop trying to be good/virtuous altogether." To call this idea "dumb" would be extremely generous.
The moment something genuinely good, thoughtful, or valuable is articulated, it attracts a parasitic force that feeds on it by twisting it. Instead of receiving the argument, the adversarial impulse manufactures a shadow version: an effigy that can be attacked, mocked, or dismissed. The true thing is never touched; only its distorted double is.

This is how evil grows: not by creating anything of its own, but by corrupting what is good. It thrives on projection, inversion, and falsification. The more luminous the original insight, the more energetically the shadow rushes in to deform it. What should have been a dialogue becomes a battleground of misreadings, projections, and defensive counter-images. The adversary's energy is stirred precisely because something real has appeared.

In that sense, your misrepresentation is not incidental: it is symptomatic. It reveals the very pathology under discussion: the reflex to falsify the good, to turn insight into fodder for distortion, to replace truth with a caricature that can be safely rejected. The lie becomes the medium through which the adversarial force sustains itself.
 
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Neogaia777

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The moment something genuinely good, thoughtful, or valuable is articulated, it attracts a parasitic force that feeds on it by twisting it. Instead of receiving the argument, the adversarial impulse manufactures a shadow version: an effigy that can be attacked, mocked, or dismissed. The true thing is never touched; only its distorted double is.

This is how evil grows: not by creating anything of its own, but by corrupting what is good. It thrives on projection, inversion, and falsification. The more luminous the original insight, the more energetically the shadow rushes in to deform it. What should have been a dialogue becomes a battleground of misreadings, projections, and defensive counter-images. The adversary's energy is stirred precisely because something real has appeared.

In that sense, your misrepresentation is not incidental: it is symptomatic. It reveals the very pathology under discussion: the reflex to falsify the good, to turn insight into fodder for distortion, to replace truth with a caricature that can be safely rejected. The lie becomes the medium through which the adversarial force sustains itself.
I'm still a little bit unclear as to what you're wanting to discuss?

Is it as @zippy2006 is saying that your argument/point is that "A number of people want to appear virtuous without acting virtuously, therefore we need to stop trying to be good/virtuous altogether.", or is it something else maybe?

Or is it maybe about some people appearing virtuous to others, but are not really virtuous, or acting virtuously, but many still think they are doing/acting virtuously, when they really are not really, or whatever, and you're wanting to discuss that or talk about those people maybe?

I'm still a little unclear as to what this whole discussion is to even be about, etc? Can you tell us maybe? Or did you just start this thread to talk about those who both try and are having some success appearing virtuous to others, but are quite the opposite of that really? And that is maybe destroying or is going to destroy, or is unraveling/going to unravel, etc, western civilization, or that it maybe will do that in the end really?

Just tell us what this is supposed to really be about. And not just want you want it to appear to be about on the surface, ok. Tell us your gripe clearly IOW's, ok. And explain it to us simply, ok. The discussion would probably be a lot more clear if you would just simply do that, ok. And don't try to hide behind anything else, ok.

What kind or type of people (or people groups) are you wanting to talk about, and how is it that you think that either that, or something else, is destroying, or is going to destroy, western civilization really?

Just answer that very last paragraph, and we might be getting somewhere with this whole gripe/discussion maybe, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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I'm still a little bit unclear as to what you're wanting to discuss?

Is it as @zippy2006 is saying that your argument/point is that "A number of people want to appear virtuous without acting virtuously, therefore we need to stop trying to be good/virtuous altogether.", or is it something else maybe?

Or is it maybe about some people appearing virtuous to others, but are not really virtuous, or acting virtuously, but many still think they are doing/acting virtuously, when they really are not really, or whatever, and you're wanting to discuss that or talk about those people maybe?

I'm still a little unclear as to what this whole discussion is to even be about, etc? Can you tell us maybe? Or did you just start this thread to talk about those who both try and are having some success appearing virtuous to others, but are quite the opposite of that really? And that is maybe destroying or is going to destroy, or is unraveling/going to unravel, etc, western civilization, or that it maybe will do that in the end really?

Just tell us what this is supposed to really be about. And not just want you want it to appear to be about on the surface, ok. Tell us your gripe clearly IOW's, ok. And explain it to us simply, ok. The discussion would probably be a lot more clear if you would just simply do that, ok. And don't try to hide behind anything else, ok.

What kind or type of people (or people groups) are you wanting to talk about, and how is it that you think that either that, or something else, is destroying, or is going to destroy, western civilization really?

Just answer that very last paragraph, and we might be getting somewhere with this whole gripe/discussion maybe, ok.

God Bless.
@Teofrastus

Or just try to answer these maybe?

What do you mean by goodness-narcissism, and why do you think it is destroying or is going to destroy western civilization really?

Let's just get back to basics, ok?

Who are you referring to exactly?

If you could answer just those few questions just shortly and simply, then this whole discussion would probably make a lot more headway?

And no long-winded "whatever", but just answer those questions shortly and simply, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Teofrastus

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So...to explore the extremes, should we forgo any attempt at being more righteous today than we were yesterday when we experience faults? Should we forgo recongizing and admitting to our sins and striving to overcome them by the power of grace? That should be the opposite of the Pharisee's actions who simple saw and presumed themselves to be righteous to begin with. Or the opposite of Adam who essentially and originally did the same by denying his need for God. IOW, is it wrong to want to be right, or better to simply acknowledge that we're wrong- without possibility of improvement?

In the historic understanding of our faith as I see it, Adam essentially wanted to be right, thought he was right, on his own and apart from God while the gospel promise is that God can and will rectify us Himself as we humbly turn to Him, forsaking the pride that keeps us distant from Him, and therefore distant from any authentic justice/righteousness. Reconciliation, IOW: man was made for communion with God-and that should be the antedote for the ugly self-righteousness that causes all the moral harm and victimization in this world even as we don't get over it all at once-and must keep aware of that fact.

In any case, in Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mount, along with Matt 22, Jesus sheds much light on this. The inside must be changed first of all in order for the outside to be changed and our subsequent actions to be authentic.
You're asking whether my critique of "appearing righteous" implies that Christians should stop striving for righteousness altogether. You rightly insist that authentic righteousness is not a self-curated moral performance but a transformation given by God. Yet this very point shows that we cannot strive to be righteous through grace. Grace is received, not achieved; it is not a tool for striving but the abolition of striving. Gregory Palamas explains that the soul is deified by participation, not effort.

What human effort can accomplish is obedience to societal law, the fulfilment of one's duties, and the paying of one's taxes. These are commendable and necessary, but they do not earn even a single point on the scale of divine righteousness, only on the scale of societal righteousness. China has formalized such a scale, rating citizens according to their social conformity and usefulness. People who excel in this system have already received their reward, as Jesus says. Their righteousness is horizontal, not vertical; civic, not divine; a matter of social credit rather than spiritual transformation.

Paul teaches maturation, not striving. Growth is participation in Christ's life; transformation is the work of the Spirit; and maturity is the fruit of grace. Striving belongs to the flesh (Gal 3:3; Rom 7:18-25); maturation belongs to the Spirit (Gal 5:16-25). It is God's action, not the ego's project. Paul's point is that religious law belongs to the flesh. It is no better than the Chinese social-credit system. But this does not make it evil: worldly life requires order, discipline, and direction. The law is milk for spiritual infants who have not yet matured enough to receive the mind of Christ (1 Cor 3:1-2; Gal 3:24-25; 4:1-3; Heb 5:12-14). It earns no credit in the eyes of God.

The moment we strive to receive grace, we lose it. The ego's striving is always horizontal, and when the horizontal dominates, the vertical dimension collapses. In this sense, the Christian mystics are exactly right.

Your argument is that the real problem is prideful self-righteousness, not the pursuit of righteousness itself. But the moment one strives, the center of gravity shifts from grace to self-effort. It becomes the spiritual equivalent of saying, "Force yourself to relax." This kind of formulation tries to preserve moral effort, striving, self-examination, progress, and improvement. The ego insists on remaining the agent of righteousness, even while invoking grace. The result is that grace is shut out. When the ego wants to be the protagonist of its own sanctification, it inevitably generates the goodness-narcissism we are analysing, because striving is always self-referential: self-measuring, self-directed, and self-curating.

There is nothing wrong with being a good Christian, if it were possible. The problem is that the ego inevitably identifies with the role of "the good Christian," and once it does, evil grows by parasitizing the good. This is precisely Paul's concern about the law. The law itself is not the problem; the danger arises when the ego appropriates the law's definition of righteousness and turns it into an identity. Once the ego identifies with "being righteous according to the law," it becomes the very thing Paul calls evil. That's why Paul's discussion of the law remains so relevant today: the teachings of Christianity also function as "law," and evil readily feeds on them whenever the ego turns them into a badge of righteousness. The moment striving enters, falsity enters. The ego begins to fabricate righteousness and the lie begins.

That's why there is no such thing as a "good Christian." The ego begins quietly appropriating the identity, and in doing so it exhumes the very evil it intends to avoid. When "being good" becomes an ego-project, the good becomes food for the parasitic shadow. Paul counters this dynamic by saying, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit," because "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18-25). In other words, you are no longer governed by the ego's project of being "good."

But "walking by the Spirit" is easier said than done. This is why many commentators describe Paul as a mystic. He was, however, also a highly educated man with a sharp intellect. In the Platonic tradition, the path of ascent is essentially a process of intellectual maturation. The highest faculty of the soul is nous, which is detached from the ego. The refinement of nous does not inflate the ego; if anything, it deflates it, because nous is oriented towards, and receptive to, the Holy Spirit.

People with weaker intellects, like the disciples, tend to want explicit rules to follow (and Jesus eventually gives them a few). But those with stronger intellects require fewer rules, because they can figure out the path. They do not possess the truth, but they perceive the direction towards truth. This is why nous does not aggrandize the ego, and why the Platonic path of knowledge is such a healthy endeavour, whereas merely "knowing the law" is not.

A good example of this dynamic appears in research on empathy, often seen as the hallmark of goodness. But genuine empathy requires intellectual understanding. Caring for an animal, for instance, demands that we understand its needs and interpret its signals. This requires cognitive work. Without it, we are left only with instinctual empathy, something every animal can do just as well, or better.
 
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Neogaia777

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@Teofrastus

Congratulations on your last post BTW, as it's actually something that I can understand actually, so kudos for that, etc.

But we do have to use our will to choose good though, but I do agree with you that excessive striving leads to unrighteousness, etc. Also, good is relative, but I do also agree that that also should not be our primary focus, especially when it is to think of yourself as being better than another, or some others, cause that should not at all be our focus, like, ever, etc.

That being said, I'd like to ask you how it is that we should go about doing good then? If our will is not ever involved at all, then we're probably not ever going to do it since we're inherently sinful, and have a natural leaning towards evil, so how do you think we should go about doing good then?

I think if we're going to strive at all, then a lot of that effort should be about consciousness of our ego, and keeping it in check, as it's almost impossible to truly do (good) without doing that, because then you can easily slip into pride/thinking to much/highly of yourself, and unrighteousness, etc.

Anyway, what are your ideas so far?

How do you think we can go about truly doing what it is truly good then?

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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@Teofrastus

Oh, and I also believe that a naive form of empathy can be unrighteous, or can lead to unrighteousness, etc.

Anyway, your thoughts about these things, or my last post?

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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@Teofrastus

There is that old adage "All things in moderation, and nothing in excess" and that would probably also include our striving or our own self-effort probably.

Anyway, your thoughts so far?

Do we/should we ever try to exert or use our own wills ever at all, etc?

And if we should, then how can we tell when we have crossed a/the/that sometimes invisible line into unrighteousness maybe, etc? Even in our own efforts to try and do good, or be good probably? How do we know when we have crossed the line, etc?

God Bless.
 
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fhansen

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You're asking whether my critique of "appearing righteous" implies that Christians should stop striving for righteousness altogether. You rightly insist that authentic righteousness is not a self-curated moral performance but a transformation given by God. Yet this very point shows that we cannot strive to be righteous through grace. Grace is received, not achieved; it is not a tool for striving but the abolition of striving. Gregory Palamas explains that the soul is deified by participation, not effort.

What human effort can accomplish is obedience to societal law, the fulfilment of one's duties, and the paying of one's taxes. These are commendable and necessary, but they do not earn even a single point on the scale of divine righteousness, only on the scale of societal righteousness. China has formalized such a scale, rating citizens according to their social conformity and usefulness. People who excel in this system have already received their reward, as Jesus says. Their righteousness is horizontal, not vertical; civic, not divine; a matter of social credit rather than spiritual transformation.

Paul teaches maturation, not striving. Growth is participation in Christ's life; transformation is the work of the Spirit; and maturity is the fruit of grace. Striving belongs to the flesh (Gal 3:3; Rom 7:18-25); maturation belongs to the Spirit (Gal 5:16-25). It is God's action, not the ego's project. Paul's point is that religious law belongs to the flesh. It is no better than the Chinese social-credit system. But this does not make it evil: worldly life requires order, discipline, and direction. The law is milk for spiritual infants who have not yet matured enough to receive the mind of Christ (1 Cor 3:1-2; Gal 3:24-25; 4:1-3; Heb 5:12-14). It earns no credit in the eyes of God.

The moment we strive to receive grace, we lose it. The ego's striving is always horizontal, and when the horizontal dominates, the vertical dimension collapses. In this sense, the Christian mystics are exactly right.

Your argument is that the real problem is prideful self-righteousness, not the pursuit of righteousness itself. But the moment one strives, the center of gravity shifts from grace to self-effort. It becomes the spiritual equivalent of saying, "Force yourself to relax." This kind of formulation tries to preserve moral effort, striving, self-examination, progress, and improvement. The ego insists on remaining the agent of righteousness, even while invoking grace. The result is that grace is shut out. When the ego wants to be the protagonist of its own sanctification, it inevitably generates the goodness-narcissism we are analysing, because striving is always self-referential: self-measuring, self-directed, and self-curating.

There is nothing wrong with being a good Christian, if it were possible. The problem is that the ego inevitably identifies with the role of "the good Christian," and once it does, evil grows by parasitizing the good. This is precisely Paul's concern about the law. The law itself is not the problem; the danger arises when the ego appropriates the law's definition of righteousness and turns it into an identity. Once the ego identifies with "being righteous according to the law," it becomes the very thing Paul calls evil. That's why Paul's discussion of the law remains so relevant today: the teachings of Christianity also function as "law," and evil readily feeds on them whenever the ego turns them into a badge of righteousness. The moment striving enters, falsity enters. The ego begins to fabricate righteousness and the lie begins.

That's why there is no such thing as a "good Christian." The ego begins quietly appropriating the identity, and in doing so it exhumes the very evil it intends to avoid. When "being good" becomes an ego-project, the good becomes food for the parasitic shadow. Paul counters this dynamic by saying, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit," because "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18-25). In other words, you are no longer governed by the ego's project of being "good."

But "walking by the Spirit" is easier said than done. This is why many commentators describe Paul as a mystic. He was, however, also a highly educated man with a sharp intellect. In the Platonic tradition, the path of ascent is essentially a process of intellectual maturation. The highest faculty of the soul is nous, which is detached from the ego. The refinement of nous does not inflate the ego; if anything, it deflates it, because nous is oriented towards, and receptive to, the Holy Spirit.

People with weaker intellects, like the disciples, tend to want explicit rules to follow (and Jesus eventually gives them a few). But those with stronger intellects require fewer rules, because they can figure out the path. They do not possess the truth, but they perceive the direction towards truth. This is why nous does not aggrandize the ego, and why the Platonic path of knowledge is such a healthy endeavour, whereas merely "knowing the law" is not.

A good example of this dynamic appears in research on empathy, often seen as the hallmark of goodness. But genuine empathy requires intellectual understanding. Caring for an animal, for instance, demands that we understand its needs and interpret its signals. This requires cognitive work. Without it, we are left only with instinctual empathy, something every animal can do just as well, or better.
Thank you- a very thoughtful and perceptive and informed post-beyond my own capabilities for sure. It focuses on grace and aligns with the ancient church understanding, as revealed in three quotes of Augustine included in this catechetical teaching:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

“Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.”51

“You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.” 59


But…there’s still something missing IMO, something touched on by @Neogaia777, something subtle but simultaneously crucial. Our existence depends entirely on God and He doesn’t need us to exist and could squash us like bugs but He wants us to exist out of love, to share in the sheer uncompromised goodness and happiness that’s intrinsic to His love. God created man good, as He created everything, in His own image as a rational being with free will and, since Eden, has been working on bringing man to choose, to choose rightly, to choose good over evil, to place Him and His will first above all else, above any created being including ourselves-to come into alignment with His perfect will. If His desire was simply to do that all for us, without regard to our wills, then it would be reasonable to presume that He would’ve simply compelled right choice and behavior from the beginning, avoiding all the subsequent evil that resulted from man’s first wrong choice, his disobedience of His will, of human self-righteous reigning above all, above “God-righteousness”.

But as it is we now exist in a world where both good and evil are literally known, are experienced and participated in to one degree or another daily, and have also been given the revelation and grace to choose between the two, even if only weakly and in fits and starts at first- but meant to grow into increasing conviction, and therefore increasing justice/righteousness within. That’s our purpose, to come to know and love God, to come to love as He does to the extent possible, growing in His own image as we participate and cooperate with His work. Grace, IOW, is resistible, at and by His wise discretion.

So He informs, teaches, appeals to, coaxes, prompts, moves but never outright causes our turning to Him, because He wants our responsibility, our ownership, as an ingredient in any authentic righteousness. And it’s a process, a journey. To put it another way, love, as the chief definition of righteousness, is necessarily a choice: both a gift of grace and a human choice to embrace and express that gift, in which case that justice/righteousness grows more yet in us. Without that understanding and willingness, we can’t and won’t actually attain to any righteousness whatsoever. It’s all from Him, as everything is, but we must also consent-and that’s not narcissism but simply to finally do what we should do and were created to do with the full help of grace: God patiently overcoming the narcissism that actually keeps us from Him and from any true righteousness He created us for. He gives us the ability-He enables us, to see past and overcome the herd mentality, the common human pride that ironically fears and serves the opinion of others over the fear and love of His opinion.

So there’s a degree of our striving, of our effort, of our own responsibility, necessary, and called for, expected, and cultivated, as we become increasingly aware of-enlightened to- our need, our need for something more than ourselves and so begin to cooperate with the grace given and the pursuit of the maturity and completion that it’s intended for.

Sorry-turned into a longer post than planned on.
 
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zippy2006

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The law is milk for spiritual infants who have not yet matured enough to receive the mind of Christ (1 Cor 3:1-2; Gal 3:24-25; 4:1-3; Heb 5:12-14). It earns no credit in the eyes of God.
Paul is talking about the Torah. Do you think Gentiles struggle with the "milk" of the Torah?

But the moment one strives, the center of gravity shifts from grace to self-effort.
This is an interesting personal philosophy of yours. It sounds like you've watched a bit too much Star Wars. I would opt instead for Christianity:

  • "Strive to enter by the narrow door..." (Luke 13:24)
  • "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
  • "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;" (Philippians 3)
  • "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [...] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?" (James 2)
 
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Paul is talking about the Torah. Do you think Gentiles struggle with the "milk" of the Torah?


This is an interesting personal philosophy of yours. It sounds like you've watched a bit too much Star Wars. I would opt instead for Christianity:

  • "Strive to enter by the narrow door..." (Luke 13:24)
  • "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
  • "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;" (Philippians 3)
  • "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [...] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?" (James 2)
It is quite unexpected to hear an attempt at objective critique from you.

Of course, one cannot strive to enter the Kingdom in the ordinary sense of striving, since Christ has already fought the decisive battle against death and corruption. For this reason the Fathers consistently read agonízesthe as the soul's dramatic cooperation with divine grace. It is from this verb that our English agonize derives. According to Maximus the Confessor, the human will "agonizes" only because the divine will is already present and active.

The Fathers did not understand this striving as an attempt to obtain salvation. It is not Pelagian exertion but participatory ascent, an effort not to fall away from the grace already given. As Chrysostom puts it, "God opens the door; your struggle is not to flee from it."

Origen and Basil explain that the soul strives because its inner disorder makes receiving the Kingdom painful. The agon is the healing crisis of grace. Origen says that the door is narrow because the soul is swollen; striving is the painful shrinking of ego so that grace may pass through.

This line of exegesis can also illuminate Philippians 2:12: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." One is bound to fear and tremble when the ego is being flattened.

Such biblical sayings are easily misinterpreted. This is why the image of Scripture as a winnowing fan is relevant: they seem almost designed to let the self-assured wander astray.

Gentiles do not struggle with the Torah in an explicit sense, yet in Christian theology "law" remains a general principle at the center of the drama. Legalistic striving becomes a kind of demonic force, which is why Paul says that the law, when used as a system of justification, becomes a sphere of enslavement under hostile (presumably demonic) powers (Gal 4:3, 9).

The Epistle of James remains a thorn in the side for theologians. James was, after all, a Judaist. Luther called it an "epistle of straw," though he did not renounce it.
 
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fhansen

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As Chrysostom puts it, "God opens the door; your struggle is not to flee from it."
This is true, we must embrace and act upon that grace.
The Epistle of James remains a thorn in the side for theologians. James was, after all, a Judaist. Luther called it an "epistle of straw," though he did not renounce it.
James, IMO, is simply stating what happens when we don't flee from grace. In either case the will of man remains involved, to the degree God desires.
 
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zippy2006

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The Fathers did not understand this striving as an attempt to obtain salvation. It is not Pelagian exertion but participatory ascent, an effort not to fall away from the grace already given. As Chrysostom puts it, "God opens the door; your struggle is not to flee from it."

Origen and Basil explain that the soul strives because its inner disorder makes receiving the Kingdom painful. The agon is the healing crisis of grace. Origen says that the door is narrow because the soul is swollen; striving is the painful shrinking of ego so that grace may pass through.
And yet none of this is in keeping with the teaching of your personal philosophy wherein one does not strive for salvation, because for the Fathers the counterfactual which you reject holds: if one does not strive in these ways, then they will not be saved. When Jesus, or Paul, or the Fathers talk about striving they are not talking about the "reception" of your personal philosophy.

yet in Christian theology "law" remains a general principle
No, this is true of your personal philosophy, not of Christian theology.

Legalistic striving becomes a kind of demonic force, which is why Paul says that the law, when used as a system of justification,
The focus on self-justification by good works is a Protestant eisegesis that has nothing to do with Paul.

The Epistle of James remains a thorn in the side for theologians. James was, after all, a Judaist. Luther called it an "epistle of straw," though he did not renounce it.
Christianity remains a thorn in the side of those who elevate their personal philosophies over sacred scripture, Luther being the foremost.
 
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Teofrastus

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And yet none of this is in keeping with the teaching of your personal philosophy wherein one does not strive for salvation, because for the Fathers the counterfactual which you reject holds: if one does not strive in these ways, then they will not be saved. When Jesus, or Paul, or the Fathers talk about striving they are not talking about the "reception" of your personal philosophy.
The Fathers explicitly reject striving as the cause of salvation.

Augustine, On Grace and Free Will 17: "We do not begin by our own effort, but God’s mercy goes before us."

Chrysostom, Homily on Ephesians 2: "We contribute nothing to our salvation."

Basil, On Humility: "No one is saved by his own works."

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Beatitudes: "Virtue is the fruit of grace."

My comment: These are not Protestant readings. They are the Fathers themselves.

No, this is true of your personal philosophy, not of Christian theology.
Oh yes, in Christian theology "law" remains a general principle. Read The Proper Distinction between Law and Gospel (1897) by Lutheran theologian C. F. W. Walther (1811-1887). It is freely downloadable here. There's also an audio version here.
The focus on self-justification by good works is a Protestant eisegesis that has nothing to do with Paul.
Romans 3:27–28: "Where then is boasting? It is excluded… For we hold that a person is justified apart from works of the law."

My comment: Boasting is not generic pride; it is covenantal self-confidence, claiming status before God based on one's own performance. This is precisely "self‑justification."

Romans 10:3: "Being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

My comment: Paul's language, seeking to establish their own righteousness, is the clearest possible statement of self-justification.

In Philippians 3:4-9 Paul lists his impeccable Jewish credentials and then rejects them as grounds for righteousness:

"…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ…"

My comment: This is Paul's autobiographical repudiation of self-justification by works.

Galatians 2:16: "A person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ…"

My comment: The contrast is not between "ethnic boundary markers" and "faith," but between human performance and God's gift.

Galatians 3:10: "All who rely on works of the law are under a curse…"

My comment: To "rely on" is precisely to trust in one's works for justification.
Christianity remains a thorn in the side of those who elevate their personal philosophies over sacred scripture, Luther being the foremost.
Scripture itself requires interpretation. The biblical authors interpret earlier Scripture. Jesus commands interpretation, and the early Church Fathers insist on interpretation. Luther’s hermeneutic is not "personal philosophy" but a continuation of this biblical pattern.

Nehemiah 8:8: "They read from the book, from the law of God, clearly, and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading."

My comment: Scripture must be interpreted (they gave the sense). This is not "personal philosophy." It is the biblical model.

Luke 24:27: "He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

My comment: Jesus does not merely quote Scripture; he interprets it.

Acts 8:30-31: "Do you understand what you are reading?" "How can I, unless someone guides me?"

My comment: Scripture is not self‑interpreting. The Bible itself says so.
 
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