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If Worship on Sunday is wrong, then why do SDA parishes rent their churches to Traditional Christians?

SabbathBlessings

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Would you deny that Pentecost happened on the first day of the week in Acts 2?
A yearly feast? Are you suggesting God said to keep the yearly feasts over obeying the 4th commandment? I would need a verse for that. The apotles never took it that way as we see throughout Acts.
 
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Sophia7

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A yearly feast? Are you suggesting God said to keep the yearly feasts over obeying the 4th commandment? I would need a verse for that. The apotles never took it that way as we see throughout Acts.
Was it on the first day of the week? That's the question, not whether it replaced the Sabbath. That is not the issue here. It is simply that there is no biblical commandment forbidding worship of God on the first day of the week, and at times it occurred (however often that might be; this is not about any weekly replacement of the Sabbath) on the first day, even in the OT calendar.

So was Pentecost in Acts 2 on the first day of the week?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Was it on the first day of the week? That's the question, not whether it replaced the Sabbath. That is not the issue here. It is simply that there is no biblical commandment forbidding worship of God on the first day of the week, and at times it occurred (however often that might be; this is not about any weekly replacement of the Sabbath) on the first day, even in the OT calendar.

So was Pentecost in Acts 2 on the first day of the week?
I never said there was forbidding worship of God on any day of the week, so you're making up your own argument.

That's a different argument than we can replace worship to God on the day we choose over from keeping one of God's commandments. Keeping a tradition over obeying God's commandments, is what Jesus said, not me, is speaking Him with our mouths, but our hearts far from Him, making the word of God of no effect, our worship in vain Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13


God never said to keep the first day holy on a weekly basis, He said its for work and labors. Exo20:9 to keep the Sabbath day holy, the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo20:8-11 if you take issue with this, that's not an argument with me.
 
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prodromos

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But is quite different than saying the apostles celebrated the day of His resurrection every first day, which is not Scriptural.
It is, however, historical. Every church established by the Apostles and the Seventy, from England to India, all worshipped primarily on Sunday.
The apostles only show keeping every Sabbath day holy, preaching the resurrection on the Sabbath day as their custom, nothing about doing anything every first day.
The Apostles preached the resurrection every day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It is, however, historical. Every church established by the Apostles and the Seventy, from England to India, all worshipped primarily on Sunday.

The Apostles preached the resurrection every day.
Show me one passage in Scripture where the apotles worshipped primary on Sunday and taught anyone to lay aside the commandment of God for mans traditions. You keep using your words as if its the same as Scripture.

Sunday didn't even come from the Bible, it came from Pagan roots.

God only named one day, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God Exo20:10, My holy day, the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13

When God can't speak for Himself, that says everything, what direction the majority went. How sad people use their most holy time modeled after pagan traditions and not what God said. No wonder God is calling us out Rev18:4 that the whole nations drank the wine of Babylon Rev14:8 and back to worship our Creator Exo20:11 Rev14:7 and fear God and keep His commandments, mans all Ecc12:13-14 Exo20:20 Rev14:6-12 instead of laying aside the commandment of God, for fearing God through mans traditions Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14

ChatGPT on where the name Sunday came from

The name Sunday developed from ancient names connected with the sun, not from the Bible or the early Christians.


https://images.openai.com/static-rsc-4/zk3nck2kMFOX2c587WVW_Z30L3SAueErRe0R5BDfjjuH-9av9VxhssP_PjpEMfyFcnrRHyJVTFkJvvdm66K1NxUPM1FPR3wXgqlNYF76G0MNZanTsq0uZ0Fz-nCACuQqQeHn3snhxeB4J8b7jy6D_oU0LKJQskLlaxaGV7PkXvw0OpmTOKYxewExqm5l4obJ?purpose=fullsize

https://images.openai.com/static-rsc-4/n3o3259sQUbjprkpKbpTl-jhWEQ6Tvk8kRQWb1DmQq38W7PZX8ZqTFsBQr23MWFNP4brl0C7uPP_bYLGgx1uTy0h9EZXjuKq-32cvN9U3i8JgEBr3xyUV8AxlglwmnOPRsx34Weq-ygJzisVu8K5R3kmbZRCNua3feIqctp6zNuKu7d4svJzP-k8ZdYTNimX?purpose=fullsize

https://images.openai.com/static-rsc-4/pNBMXK72asaapRtm0ffoAcoYTkGtH0zzBCFzrtepfUxdlOHRRpPNE7S6ueTihBgGzs0gZpvM4jKOG-XnSC22igpUk40ykjhK4TzbxEdEOguj6R9oN_wx8dABoojLGXPwlXbrHh77qpDaRcIKveJxn5EBzYyp0PxmFWatVxlDvxoWZQEs8Zk4R3--WuvNRbd0?purpose=fullsize


1. Ancient Roman origin​


The Romans named the days of the week after celestial bodies and gods. The original Latin name for Sunday was:


dies Solis = "day of the Sun"


This was part of the Roman planetary week:


  • dies Solis — day of the Sun (Sunday)
  • dies Lunae — day of the Moon (Monday)
  • dies Martis — day of Mars (Tuesday)
  • dies Mercurii — day of Mercury (Wednesday)
  • dies Iovis — day of Jupiter (Thursday)
  • dies Veneris — day of Venus (Friday)
  • dies Saturni — day of Saturn (Saturday)

2. Germanic/English development​


When the Germanic peoples adopted the seven-day week, they translated the Roman names into their own language. The Old English term became:


Sunnandæg
= "day of the Sun"


This eventually became the English word Sunday.


So, Sunday was named because of the Roman "day of the Sun" designation, later carried into English through Old English. The name itself does not originate from the resurrection or from a biblical command to worship on that day.
 
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Sophia7

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I never said there was forbidding worship of God on any day of the week, so you're making up your own argument.
@reddogs did.

@The Liturgist said:

So why are traditional Christians being criticized for worshipping on Sunday?

reddogs said:

Because they are breaking Gods Commandments, and He declares if you love Him to keep them...

That was the context of my response to reddogs. I was pointing out to him that there is no biblical prohibition against worshipping on the first day of the week, so perhaps he should not criticize other Christians for doing so, which he admittedly does according to his own post.
That's a different argument than we can replace worship to God on the day we choose over from keeping one of God's commandments. Keeping a tradition over obeying God's commandments, is what Jesus said, not me, is speaking Him with our mouths, but our hearts far from Him, making the word of God of no effect, our worship in vain Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13


God never said to keep the first day holy on a weekly basis, He said its for work and labors. Exo20:9 to keep the Sabbath day holy, the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo20:8-11 if you take issue with this, that's not an argument with me.
It is a different argument and one I am not making. See the above context of my statement.

So was Pentecost in Acts 2 on the first day of the week?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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@reddogs did.

@The Liturgist said:



reddogs said:



That was the context of my response to reddogs. I was pointing out to him that there is no biblical prohibition against worshipping on the first day of the week, so perhaps he should not criticize other Christians for doing so, which he admittedly does according to his own post.

It is a different argument and one I am not making. See the above context of my statement.
Context. Its in the context of replacing the 4th commandment, with something God never commanded. God told us to work six days Exo20:9 to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo20:8-11 not elevate a working day over God's holy say that He blessed and sanctified. We should devote ourselves to God 365/24/7 false worship according to Jesus is laying aside God's commandments, laying aside our fear of God and keeping His commandments Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev12:6-12 over our fear of God through mans traditions. Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14
 
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Sophia7

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Context. Its in the context of replacing the 4th commandment, with something God never commanded. God told us to work six days Exo20:9 to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo20:8-11 not elevate a working day over God's holy say that He blessed and sanctified.
Not the question. I don't believe in Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath. The question is did Pentecost in Acts 2 occur on the first day of the week?
 
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Sophia7

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Context. Its in the context of replacing the 4th commandment, with something God never commanded. God told us to work six days Exo20:9 to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo20:8-11 not elevate a working day over God's holy say that He blessed and sanctified. We should devote ourselves to God 365/24/7 false worship according to Jesus is laying aside God's commandments, fearing God and keeping His commandments Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev12:6-12 over our fear of God through mans traditions. Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14
Also, context would indicate that @The Liturgist does not set aside the Sabbath either. He worships God on both days. So, again, perhaps reddogs is not justified in criticizing him for worshipping on Sunday as well as on Sabbath.
 
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tall73

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They're doing it for income. An empty building with no activity on a day when christians gather is a wasted opportunity. Myles Munroe used to rent his building too. It was the largest in Bahamas at the time and purchased to generate revenue when they weren't operating. Everything isn't religiously motivated.

~bella

Also what is different with the Adventist church than most churches is that the pastor/church receives almost no money from tithes. All church tithes go to the conference. Money is never a motivation for an SDA pastor because they make the same salary if they have 30 people in the congregation or 1000 and its a very modest salary to say the least. They have to pay church expenses by any additional offerings so many do struggle, but God is good.

Not true. Adventist pastors do get paid out of tithes. Tithes go to the conference first and percentages are forwarded up to the next-higher levels of conference hierarchy. Pastors and conference officers, etc., are paid out of those funds.

See this article for further details:
.
In the context to my post had to with the titles in their local congregation, yes of course all salaries of church officials would have to come from tithes, but not by the local offering plate, I should have made that clearer. I thought it was in context, my entire point was they are not motivated by the offering plate as it was insinuated by another poster, they are on salary, most SDA's do not place their tithes in the local offering plate, they send it to the conference then gets distribute by a set salary, not percentage of what's in the plate. SDA pastors do not make a lot of money compared to many other pastors in other denominations, they set it up that way so money was never the motivation to become an SDA pastor.

  • Yes, you pointed out they make mostly the same, with exception of some cost of living adjustments, etc. That is correct. She was pointing out the nuance of that, however, The tithe is still going to pastors.
  • Adventists pastors are fairly paid, and on part with a low-end professional role, which matches their level of education.
  • There are many pastors in other denominations that make far less if they are not supported by such a system, and have one or more small churches. And there are pastors in other churches who make way more, depending on their particular arrangement.
But your post didn't actually address the entire point @bèlla was making. The Adventist system reduces the need for a pastor to worry about personal income. This is good, and also supports mission work in a more predictable way, which has been a great benefit to the church.

But the flip side of that is that because tithe goes up the chain and back down to support ministerial workers, that means that ten percent of the local giving does not come back to the local church. They raise operating expenses for the church from congregational funds. So whereas if a baptist church practiced tithing (some do, some don't), they would keep that for the local operation including the pastor. But Adventists programs send it up, then raise operating expenses on top. So yes, some local Adventist congregations may struggle to raise both of those amounts, and may have incentive to make money.

And then there is the larger question. Of all the ways you could make money, why would you do so by renting your worship space to babylon?

If you truly believe these churches are babylon, you should not support them, but call any would be faithful followers of God out.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Not the question. I don't believe in Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath. The question is did Pentecost in Acts 2 occur on the first day of the week?
I believe it did, although Scripture doesn't say. The feast days came after the Sabbath Exo20:11, after sin and the fall and never was a replacement to God's commandments. The apotles never looked at the yearly feast of Pentecost as a replacement to keeping the commandments of God, including the 4th commandment as we see plainly in Acts. So if you're trying to turn the yearly feast into a weekly feast, that is not Biblical.

At any rate, I need to run.

Happy Sabbath @All. Have a blessed day.
 
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prodromos

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Show me one passage in Scripture where the apotles worshipped primary on Sunday and taught anyone to lay aside the commandment of God for mans traditions. You keep using your words as if its the same as Scripture.
History shows what was taught by the Apostles. Churches that were geographically remote from each other all had the same liturgical practices and all worshipped primarily on Sunday.
Sunday didn't even come from the Bible, it came from Pagan roots.
I used "Sunday" because that is what the 1st day is called in English speaking cultures. If we were discussing this in Greek then I would call it "Kuriaki" which means "of the Lord". If we were discussing this in Latin then the Church called it "Dies Dominica" which means "Lord's day". It is the same in Russian, "Voskrisinye" means "Lord's day"
 
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SabbathBlessings

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History shows what was taught by the Apostles. Churches that were geographically remote from each other all had the same liturgical practices and all worshipped primarily on Sunday.

I used "Sunday" because that is what the 1st day is called in English speaking cultures. If we were discussing this in Greek then I would call it "Kuriaki" which means "of the Lord". If we were discussing this in Latin then the Church called it "Dies Dominica" which means "Lord's day". It is the same in Russian, "Voskrisinye" means "Lord's day"
Not from Scripture, what man says, speaking over what God said Exo20:10 Isa 58:13 Mark2:28
 
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tall73

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Context. Its in the context of replacing the 4th commandment, with something God never commanded.

Since the conversation was the criticism of @The Liturgist who stated he observes Sabbath with rest, and worships on that day AND he worships on Sunday, there is no reason to criticize that.

He doesn't replace Sabbath. He keeps them both.

So if you say there is nothing wrong with worshiping on any day of the week, then there is no issue here, other than @reddogs not adjusting his talking points to the person he is speaking with.


God told us to work six days

God had the Israelites honor a ceremony which pointed to the resurrection of Christ:

Jesus was crucified on Friday, preparation day, rested in the grave on the Sabbath (they rested according to the commandment), and raised early in the morning on Sunday. That would make Friday the Passover, right? Jesus our Passover Lamb was slain.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8​
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (NKJV)​


That would make Saturday both the weekly Sabbath, and the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, which is also a holy convocation.

That also makes the first day of the week, upon which Jesus was raised, the first fruits:

Leviticus 23:9-12​
9 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.​
Just as Jesus' death was the fulfillment of the Passover lamb, Jesus' resurrection fulfilled the wavesheaf. He was the firstfruits from among the dead, per Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:20​
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (NKJV)


Now you don't have to take my word on that. You can take Ellen White's, from Desire of Ages:


Desire of Ages, Ellen White​
Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.​

Working six days doesn't preclude worship on the first day.


Exo20:9 to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo20:8-11 not elevate a working day over God's holy say that He blessed and sanctified.

If he is resting on Sabbath he is keeping the Sabbath. Worship on other days is good. Worshiping in honor of the resurrecetion is good.



We should devote ourselves to God 365/24/7 false worship according to Jesus is laying aside God's commandments

But he didn't do that, because he rested on the Sabbath, and worships on that day.


, laying aside our fear of God and keeping His commandments Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev12:6-12 over our fear of God through mans traditions. Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14

The resurrection was God's doing. Celebrating it, and worshiping God are good.
 
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reddogs

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A yearly feast? Are you suggesting God said to keep the yearly feasts over obeying the 4th commandment? I would need a verse for that. The apotles never took it that way as we see throughout Acts.
I think we are seeing a desperate search for anything to keep from obeying it.....
 
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tall73

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I think we are seeing a desperate search for anything to keep from obeying it.....
I think we are seeing a desperate search for a way to NOT see he already said he was keeping Sabbath by resting and worshiping.

You need to add a file to your talking points for those who keep Sabbath and also worship on Sunday.
 
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reddogs

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@reddogs did.

@The Liturgist said:



reddogs said:



That was the context of my response to reddogs. I was pointing out to him that there is no biblical prohibition against worshipping on the first day of the week, so perhaps he should not criticize other Christians for doing so, which he admittedly does according to his own post.

It is a different argument and one I am not making. See the above context of my statement.

So was Pentecost in Acts 2 on the first day of the week?
Not what I would say Sophia, I put what God gave the days for, and only one is the Sabbath made at Creation. Now if you say another day is to be used for worship, that is what caused the problem in the first place, so I would tend to say better not to cross that line or tempt it as Tall was doing.
 
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