Why are there even denominations to begin with?

reddogs · Tuesday at 6:33 AM

The Liturgist said:
The result would be precisely like what the Roman church was in the Second century. Really, the Roman church did not change in any noticeable way until the mid fifth century, and then only very slightly. Rome was the most conservative and traditional of all ancient Patriarchates and did not experience an heretical bishop until the Monophysite heresy, which was supported by Pope Honorius I, who is interesting in that his anathematization by the Third Council of Constantinople (a primarily Eastern Orthodox council with a few Western Christians in attendance) is accepted by the Roman Catholic Church to this day.

This interesting fact had the predictable insalubrious outcome of Renaissance-era supposed grimoires being psuedepigraphically attributed to him, since naturally the idea of an anathematized Pope immediately drove people to imagine him as some kind of Dark Lord of the Occult as opposed to being a pious man who made the mistake of endorsing a severe Christological error and not engaging in enough other noteworthy conduct so as to create an argument for not anathematizing him as was the case with St. Gregory of Nyssa (who endorsed what amounted to a kind of Universalism, apokatastasis, but was sufficiently well loved along with his brother St. Basil the Great that when the Second Council of Constantinople anathematized, or rather approved the document written by Justinian that anathematized Origen for apokatastasis, which was itself very controversial, no one was eager to add his name to the list).

By the way, the entire idea that the Roman church had originated some kind of gross doctrinal error between the first and second centuries is disproven if one simply reads the historical documentation of that era, which is why no serious academics endorse that view regardless of denominational affiliation.

Indeed you can actually use that as a lithmus test for whether or not you are dealing with a qualified academic, that, and also if they say things about the Council of Nicaea which are manifestly false such as the claims Dan Brown repeats in his sensationalist airport paperback-grade thriller The Da Vinci Code.

Actually I would say as a general principal that most airport paperbacks should not be consulted as historical references pertaining to ecclesiastical history; there is simply too much material to fit into one volume.

You see the post says the 'church did not change till the 5th century' and then only 'slightly'. Well it let in and quickly picked up Greek and Roman 'traditions' and by the 2nd century was imposing it across the empire. And we can see the results today....'
Modified forms of the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul were adopted by Christian writers beginning from the latter part of the second century. The most influential promoters were Tertullian (155-240), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430) and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). We shall say a few words about each of them.

Tertullian: Eternal Torment

Tertullian is rightly regarded as the founder of Latin theology. He was born is a heathen home in Cathage, North Africa, and received legal training in Rome. He returned to Carthage at the age of forty and embraced the Christian faith after witnessing the courage of martyrs and the life of holiness of Christians. His numerous apologetic, theological, and ascetic works in Latin, have been very influential on Latin Christianity.

Tertullian was the first to formulate the teachings of endless torment for the wicked, by applying the notion of the immortality of the soul to the saved and unsaved. He expressly taught that "the torments of the lost, will be co-eternal with the happiness of the saved."9

Tertullian rejected Plato's teaching of the pre-existence of the souls, but he embraced his teachings that "every soul is immortal." He wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many . . . I may use therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal"10 Note that the opinion of Plato is cited to support the belief in the immortality of the soul. No attempt is made to validate such doctrine by the authority of Scripture, obviously because, as we shall see, in the Bible the soul does not exist apart from the body.

Origen: Universal Restoration

The influence of Platonic dualism is evident especially in the writings of Origen (ca. 185-254), a man who came to be acknowledged as the most accomplished scholar of his generation. He rejected Tertullian's teaching of eternal torment, promoting instead the universal restoration of even the most incorrigible sinners, including the demons and Satan himself. After a period of corrective punishment, all of them will be brought again into ultimate subjection to Christ.
Origen's teaching derives largely from Plato's notion that the soul is an immaterial and immortal substance. In his De Principiis (On the Principle), Origen repeatedly refers to the "soul" as a "substance" which partakes of the "eternal nature" and "lasts for ever." "Every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal."11
Since the soul partakes of the divine nature and cannot be destroyed, Origen reasoned that the only way moral evil can ultimately eliminated, is for God to restore even the incorrigibly wicked after His "consuming fire . . .throroughly cleanses away the evil."12

Both Tertullian's eternal torment and Origen's cleansing fire, are unbiblical teachings which are fatal to true Christian faith, though in opposite ways. One threatened an eternal punishment that God never decreed and the other promised a universal salvation that God never authorized. In Scripture evil is a reality of this present time, not an inevitable part of eternity. By allowing their mind to be guided by pagan philosophy rather than Scriptural teachings, brilliant men like Tertullian and Origen developed heresies that have undermined Christian beliefs and practices...." so its not just the day of worship and we wont even talk about 'veneration'...

Freth · Tuesday at 7:30 AM

jmldn2 said:
I'm not a scholar (far from it) of history of religion but I have never understood why the Christian world even is divided into "denominations." We are not saved because we are in a certain denomination

The divide in Christendom was prophesied to happen.

2 Thessalonians 2 calls it the falling away; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
Revelation 17 describes a corrupt woman; a woman is symbol for a church. This corrupt church has daughters.

If there is a defection from the truth, then the truth must be able to be discerned, and the issue rectified. This is indeed the case as prophecy describes God's people coming together in one accord in the last days. Albeit a remnant of the whole, indicating that only a small number return to the truth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

The defining aspect of the remnant is that they keep the commandments of God. This then would point to the fact that there is a problem in Christendom with the keeping of the commandments of God. Satan's attention (persecution) is specifically focused on those who keep the commandments of God.

There are two other prophecies to consider.

The worship of the beast by the whole earth described in Revelation 13.
The three angels' messages:
1. The last call to worship said with a loud voice, for His judgment is come (present tense).
2. Babylon is fallen, is fallen.
3. The consequences of worshiping the beast (destruction in the lake of fire).
4. The remnant described in stark contrast to who worship the beast: Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

In conclusion...

Truth or apostasy. Who has the truth and who is in apostasy?

Prophecy tells us exactly what has happened, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
As prophecy describes, in the end there will be only a remnant left.
- The remnant described isn't a denomination. It consists of God's people who have the truth. Many in apostasy leave apostasy for the truth, joining the remnant.
- The remnant described isn't a large number, but a small one.
- World religion cannot be the answer, because it is the world that worships the beast, and the beast is a world religious power that exercises civil authority (church and state).
- The keeping of the commandments of God is prominent in end time prophecy, and is the very description of the remnant.
The Bible lays out in clear language what the truth is, one simply has to read it and apply it.
- 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
- Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
- Psalm 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.
- John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

The Liturgist · Tuesday at 11:36 AM

Freth said:
The divide in Christendom was prophesied to happen.

2 Thessalonians 2 calls it the falling away; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Revelation 17 describes a corrupt woman; a woman is symbol for a church. This corrupt church has daughters.

I

Your interpretation of Revelation 17 is speculative, but in the case of 2 Thessalonians - that divide did happen, in the form of the heretical sects like the Marcionites, Donatists, Arians, Monothelites, and so on.

The history contained in The Great Controversy which claims a remnant with beliefs similar to yours including sects such as the Albigensians and Waldensians has been discredited - of these, the only one approaching your denomination in belief was the Waldensians, whose beliefs appear to resemble Protestantism with the exception of containing the erroneous belief that the efficacy of the sacraments depends on the righteousness of the one administering them (this is known as Donatism and was rejected since I am aware of only sinless man and He is God Himself) , but we have no records anywhere to suggest they were Sabbatarian, and they were certainly happy to join with the decidedly non-Sabbatarian Calvinists.

Mark Quayle · Tuesday at 11:53 PM

jmldn2 said:
The Gospel is exactly what I posted. Living the Gospel is the rest of the story!!!!!

What you posted may be the gospel —I haven't looked to see. But that is a far cry from saying the Gospel is what you posted.

Consider the notion, for example, that the whole story of Creation, Fall, Redemption, Restoration and Glorification is The Gospel. Your post did not cover all that.

fhansen · Wednesday at 1:42 PM

reddogs said:
You see the post says the 'church did not change till the 5th century' and then only 'slightly'. Well it let in and quickly picked up Greek and Roman 'traditions' and by the 2nd century was imposing it across the empire. And we can see the results today....'
Modified forms of the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul were adopted by Christian writers beginning from the latter part of the second century. The most influential promoters were Tertullian (155-240), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430) and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). We shall say a few words about each of them.

Tertullian: Eternal Torment

Tertullian is rightly regarded as the founder of Latin theology. He was born is a heathen home in Cathage, North Africa, and received legal training in Rome. He returned to Carthage at the age of forty and embraced the Christian faith after witnessing the courage of martyrs and the life of holiness of Christians. His numerous apologetic, theological, and ascetic works in Latin, have been very influential on Latin Christianity.

Tertullian was the first to formulate the teachings of endless torment for the wicked, by applying the notion of the immortality of the soul to the saved and unsaved. He expressly taught that "the torments of the lost, will be co-eternal with the happiness of the saved."9

Tertullian rejected Plato's teaching of the pre-existence of the souls, but he embraced his teachings that "every soul is immortal." He wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many . . . I may use therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal"10 Note that the opinion of Plato is cited to support the belief in the immortality of the soul. No attempt is made to validate such doctrine by the authority of Scripture, obviously because, as we shall see, in the Bible the soul does not exist apart from the body.

Origen: Universal Restoration

The influence of Platonic dualism is evident especially in the writings of Origen (ca. 185-254), a man who came to be acknowledged as the most accomplished scholar of his generation. He rejected Tertullian's teaching of eternal torment, promoting instead the universal restoration of even the most incorrigible sinners, including the demons and Satan himself. After a period of corrective punishment, all of them will be brought again into ultimate subjection to Christ.
Origen's teaching derives largely from Plato's notion that the soul is an immaterial and immortal substance. In his De Principiis (On the Principle), Origen repeatedly refers to the "soul" as a "substance" which partakes of the "eternal nature" and "lasts for ever." "Every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal."11
Since the soul partakes of the divine nature and cannot be destroyed, Origen reasoned that the only way moral evil can ultimately eliminated, is for God to restore even the incorrigibly wicked after His "consuming fire . . .throroughly cleanses away the evil."12

Both Tertullian's eternal torment and Origen's cleansing fire, are unbiblical teachings which are fatal to true Christian faith, though in opposite ways. One threatened an eternal punishment that God never decreed and the other promised a universal salvation that God never authorized. In Scripture evil is a reality of this present time, not an inevitable part of eternity. By allowing their mind to be guided by pagan philosophy rather than Scriptural teachings, brilliant men like Tertullian and Origen developed heresies that have undermined Christian beliefs and practices...." so its not just the day of worship and we wont even talk about 'veneration'...

And yet many, many early writers, and the majority of early Christians in general, believed in eternal punishment, necessitating eternal existence, with or without regard to philosphy. Philosphy was simply seen by many as the admirable pursuit of truth, by the use of reason, something Paul was employing in Rom 1:19-20, incidentally. All truth is God's truth as Augustine once put it.

Aristotle, using reason to arrive at an immutable prime mover god lends nothing but support to the notion of a single creator God: a "motive of credibility" as it were, lending credence to the Judeo-Christian concept of God, IOW. Even there, as you noted, early fathers of the philosophical bent didn't necessarily accept all that any given philosopher or thinker taught and the church, more importantly, ultimately accepted or rejected the various concepts that were floated around by whomever was doing so. In the west, not even everything Augustine and Aquinas taught was accepted.

As far as the forbidden topic(s), your position is plausibly enough supported by Scripture, as many erroneous but novel or popular ideas are, but many of which you, yourself, would disagree with I'm sure.

jmldn2 · Thursday at 7:52 AM

Freth said:
The divide in Christendom was prophesied to happen.

2 Thessalonians 2 calls it the falling away; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Revelation 17 describes a corrupt woman; a woman is symbol for a church. This corrupt church has daughters.

If there is a defection from the truth, then the truth must be able to be discerned, and the issue rectified. This is indeed the case as prophecy describes God's people coming together in one accord in the last days. Albeit a remnant of the whole, indicating that only a small number return to the truth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

The defining aspect of the remnant is that they keep the commandments of God. This then would point to the fact that there is a problem in Christendom with the keeping of the commandments of God. Satan's attention (persecution) is specifically focused on those who keep the commandments of God.

There are two other prophecies to consider.

The worship of the beast by the whole earth described in Revelation 13.

The three angels' messages:

The last call to worship said with a loud voice, for His judgment is come (present tense).

Babylon is fallen, is fallen.

The consequences of worshiping the beast (destruction in the lake of fire).

The remnant described in stark contrast: Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

In conclusion...

Truth or apostasy. Who has the truth and who is in apostasy?

Prophecy tells us exactly what has happened, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

As prophecy describes, in the end there will be only a remnant left.

The remnant described isn't a denomination. It consists of God's people who have the truth. Many in apostasy leave apostasy for the truth, joining the remnant.

The remnant described isn't a large number, but a small one.

World religion cannot be the answer, because it is the world that worships the beast, and the beast is a world power.

The keeping of the commandments of God is prominent in end time prophecy, and is the very description of the remnant.

The Bible lays out in clear language what the truth is, one simply has to read it and apply it.

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Psalm 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

The Bible lays out in clear language what the truth is, one simply has to read it and apply it.

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
Psalm 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

I am not a person of "many words" and I tend to keep my posts plain and simple. To me those verses above says so much to contemplate!!!!!!

jmldn2 · Thursday at 8:01 AM

Mark Quayle said:
What you posted may be the gospel —I haven't looked to see. But that is a far cry from saying the Gospel is what you posted.

Consider the notion, for example, that the whole story of Creation, Fall, Redemption, Restoration and Glorification is The Gospel. Your post did not cover all

I am a person of few words that are simple and plain. The Gospel (Good News) is to me an offer of eternal salvation through the redemptive price paid for an undeserving creation (mankind) by God Almighty Maker of Heaven and Earth only Son Jesus Christ the Name above all names.

jmldn2 · Thursday at 8:06 AM

jas3 said:
If that's what you think, I can see why you'd be confused about denominations. All I can say is, even though I think they were wrong in very fundamental ways, the Protestant Reformers weren't stupid, and it's a mistake to act like their doctrinal disputes are beneath you just because you prefer one verse in the Gospel of St. John to all the others.

My original post asking the simple question of "why are there denominations" was/is a legitimate one. Evidently it was a good question to ask based upon so many responses, which I appreciate every single one. Why you say that I "act like their doctrinal disputes are beneath me", is a wonderment. You have no way of knowing how I "feel" either way

jmldn2 · Thursday at 8:10 AM

fhansen said:
And yet..it's very important for us to know that the one thing we can do is to refuse God's overtures, His grace; we can say "no" at any point. He desires our "yes", and our continous "yes", but the purpose of grace is not to compel it, but to enable it. We have no means of salvation apart from grace, apart from Him, but we can choose to remain apart from Him nonetheless. Living the life of the Spirit, OTOH, will defintely show itself in the way we live our lives.

Of course we have a choice (given to us by God Almighty) in the matter!!!! Accept God's redemptive offer or deny it!!! So are you saying we must make "continuous" choice(s) in order to maintain our salvation???????

jmldn2 · Thursday at 8:19 AM

I am glad I asked the question in my original post. I am pleased to see so many responses. Many of you seem to be succinct scholars of The Word! My knowledge of such scholarly answers is obviously limited. I still believe The Gospel (The Good News) can be a simple truth given to mankind by God Almighty as the story of grace, mercy and redemption. Living the christian life is another story.

fhansen · Thursday at 9:07 AM

jmldn2 said:
Of course we have a choice (given to us by God Almighty) in the matter!!!! Accept God's redemptive offer or deny it!!! So are you saying we must make "continuous" choice(s) in order to maintain our salvation???????

Some (erroneous) theologies maintain that the elect are first changed and therefore caused/compelled to believe such that they could never do otherwise. In any case, God's redemptive offer is for us to come into communion with Him, a fellowship that Adam rejected, forfeited, in favor of fellowship with himself for all practical purposes=pride and subequent alienation from God in any case. That's what faith-and salvation-are all about; being united with God, entering the place where man was created to be: a state of justice/righteousness, subjugated to God, no longer outside of and in opposition to His will.

So faith is more than a one-time litmus test of believing in a handfull of facts about Christ, but to come to acknowledge and align ourselves with the true God as revealed by God the Son. As it is, faith, along with hope and love, are gifts of grace but also human choices: to embrace and act upon those gifts. We must pick up our cross daily and follow-and He gives us the grace that enables us to do that very thing.

Or we can also say "no" at any point-and Scripture warns us of this, of tasting of the heavenly gift and later rejecting it (Heb 6:4), of escaping the pollution of the world through the knowledge of Christ but later turning back to the world (2 Pet 2:20), of being poor soil where an amount of fruit might be produced but only for a while (Matt 13:1-19), of not remaining in Him whereupon we'd be branches cut off and burned instead of healthy branches producing much good fruit (John 15).

reddogs · Friday at 5:50 AM

fhansen said:
And yet many, many early writers, and the majority of early Christians in general, believed in eternal punishment, necessitating eternal existence, with or without regard to philosphy. Philosphy was simply seen by many as the admirable pursuit of truth, by the use of reason, something Paul was employing in Rom 1:19-20, incidentally. All truth is God's truth as Augustine once put it.

Aristotle, using reason to arrive at an immutable prime mover god lends nothing but support to the notion of a single creator God: a "motive of credibility" as it were, lending credence to the Judeo-Christian concept of God, IOW. Even there, as you noted, early fathers of the philosophical bent didn't necessarily accept all that any given philosopher or thinker taught and the church, more importantly, ultimately accepted or rejected the various concepts that were floated around by whomever was doing so. In the west, not even everything Augustine and Aquinas taught was accepted.

As far as the forbidden topic(s), your position is plausibly enough supported by Scripture, as many erroneous but novel or popular ideas are, but many of which you, yourself, would disagree with I'm sure.

Yes, and allowed for the worship of idols and pagan traditions, and worship of those things created rather than the Creator and worse. So "all truth" is not always "Gods truth" as we can clearly see.

Freth · Friday at 8:42 AM

The Liturgist said:
Revelation 17 is speculative, but in the case of 2 Thessalonians - that divide did happen, in the form of the heretical sects like the Marcionites, Donatists, Arians, Monothelites, and so on.

The history contained in The Great Controversy which claims a remnant with beliefs similar to yours including sects such as the Albigensians and Waldensians has been discredited - of these, the only one approaching your denomination in belief was the Waldensians, whose beliefs appear to resemble Protestantism with the exception of containing the erroneous belief that the efficacy of the sacraments depends on the righteousness of the one administering them (this is known as Donatism and was rejected since I am aware of only sinless man and He is God Himself) , but we have no records anywhere to suggest they were Sabbatarian, and they were certainly happy to join with the decidedly non-Sabbatarian Calvinists.

1. Revelation 17 is speculative...

Revelation 17:1-6 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Unfaithful woman (harlot).
The kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.
The inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
She sits on a scarlet colored beast.
Full of the names of blasphemy.
The woman is arrayed in purple and scarlet.
The woman is decked with gold and precious stones and pearls.
The woman has a golden cup in her hand.
The golden cup in her hand is full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.
Her name is Mystery Babylon, pointing back to literal Babylon, known for its idolatry and false worship. See Daniel 3.
She is the mother of harlots, indicating that she has daughters. She is the mother of abominations of the earth.
She was seen drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the martyrs of Jesus. Christian persecution.

A beast is a symbol for a kingdom/power (Daniel 7:23). A woman is a symbol for a church—in this case a corrupt church (Ezekiel 16:15-58, 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5, 3:1; Revelation 14:4). A church sitting on a kingdom/power, indicating the exercising of both religious and civil authority, and described as doing so on a world scale. She is arrayed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, and has a golden cup in her hand. None of the above is speculative. It is quite specific.

2. ...in the case of 2 Thessalonians - that divide did happen, in the form of the heretical sects like the Marcionites, Donatists, Arians, Monothelites, and so on.

Heresy:

Paul was being accused of heresy in his day.

Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

That was KJV. Let's read it in NKJV.

Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

The way Paul worshiped God was called heresy. What was the way Paul worshiped God? He believed all of the things which are written in the law and in the prophets.

Who was accusing Paul of heresy? It wasn't God. It was men. What happened to Paul? He was persecuted and martyred by men. Why? Because he believed the law and the prophets.

Who does Bible say is the accuser? Satan.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

What happens to Christians in the last days? God's people are persecuted and killed because they believe the law and the prophets. The same thing that happened to Paul.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonains 2:

The prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2 parallels the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. The very same thing Paul was being persecuted for in his day will happen on a world scale, according to Revelation. God's people who believe in the law and the prophets will be persecuted and killed. Given the scale of the prophecies and what they describe (world scale, matching descriptors), I don't think 2 Thessalonians 2 can be limited to the application of heretical sects of the past.

Jesus warned agains the tradition of men making the law of God of none effect. The same has happened with prophecy. The misapplication of prophecy has made prophecy of none effect, relegating it to past events with no future application; when it is apparent that prophecy concerns events that are to transpire to the second coming and beyond.

3. The history contained in The Great Controversy which claims a remnant with beliefs similar to yours including sects such as the Albigensians and Waldensians has been discredited of these, the only one approaching your denomination in belief was the Waldensians, whose beliefs appear to resemble Protestantism with the exception of containing the erroneous belief that the efficacy of the sacraments depends on the righteousness of the one administering them (this is known as Donatism and was rejected since I am aware of only sinless man and He is God Himself) , but we have no records anywhere to suggest they were Sabbatarian, and they were certainly happy to join with the decidedly non-Sabbatarian Calvinists.

Sects and being discredited:

sect: a sect is a smaller group that breaks away from a larger religious, political, or philosophical group because it has different beliefs. It acts as an offshoot with its own strict rules or leaders.

discredit: to damage someone's reputation or make people stop believing that an idea, fact, or claim is true.

We are called to reprove, not discredit.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

It was shown (above) that "the way" (Paul's belief; the law and the prophets) was called heresy (KJV), or a sect (NKJV). It was shown (above) that the renmant is a smaller group that breaks away from a larger religious group because it has different beliefs.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Biblically and prophetically, being a part of the remnant (a sect) is a good thing.

Sabbatarianism and denomination:

My post was completely unbiased. I used scripture to answer the OP. I didn't mention my denomination or promote it. I didn't mention Elllen G. White. I didn't mention The Great Controversy. I didn't mention the Waldensians. I didn't even mention the Sabbath.

Proving the Waldensians were Sabbatarians isn't even on my radar. Even if it was, I can't go back in time and verify whether or not the Waldensians were Sabbatarians for myself. I can only rely on what has been written. Since I'm not invested one way or the other, it is a moot point.

The remnant of the end time is ultimately comprised of people from various denominations (Revelation 18:4). In that regard, it isn't one denomination, but God's people coming together through shared beliefs as defined in scripture (Revelation 14:12, for example).

fhansen · Friday at 9:12 AM

reddogs said:
Yes, and allowed for the worship of idols and pagan traditions, and worship of those things created rather than the Creator and worse. So "all truth" is not always "Gods truth" as we can clearly see.

No, all truth is God's truth simply by virtue of being true, and whether that truth is something we prefer or detest. Either way, truth is something we must always be open to, and vigilant about seeking and accepting-and certainly not twisting to fit our own agendas and false conceptions.

reddogs · Saturday at 6:21 AM

fhansen said:
No, all truth is God's truth simply by virtue of being true, and whether that truth is something we prefer or detest. Either way, truth is something we must always be open to, and vigilant about seeking and accepting-and certainly not twisting to fit our own agendas and false conceptions.

So if I were to tell you the 'truth' of 'Easter' would you turn from it and stop observing it? That is the issue we have before us...

prodromos · Saturday at 8:04 AM

reddogs said:
So if I were to tell you the 'truth' of 'Easter' would you turn from it and stop observing it? That is the issue we have before us...

You were right to put "truth" in inverted commas, because what you claim is truth in regards to the remembrance of Christ's death and resurrection is in fact an oft repeated falsehood.

SabbathBlessings · Saturday at 8:16 AM

prodromos said:
You were right to put "truth" in inverted commas, because what you claim is truth in regards to the remembrance of Christ's death and resurrection is in fact an oft repeated falsehood.

Prove the way reddogs keeps or understands communion is a falsehood.. Remember every false accusation we make we are accountable. We really need to get away from making so many accusations against our brethren, if you have something to say and claim another person says it, then actually prove it by quoting them and then demonstrate it by Scripture how its not correct.

prodromos · Saturday at 8:32 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
Prove the way reddogs keeps or understands communion is a falsehood..

Strawman. I'm referring to his claims about Easter.

SabbathBlessings said:
Remember every false accusation we make we are accountable. We really need to get away from making so many accusations against our brethren, if you have something to say and claim another person says it, then actually prove it by quoting them and then demonstrate it by Scripture how its not correct.

Since @reddogs is only posting links to websites, I'm not about to waste my time responding to a site which cannot respond to critique. He needs to make the argument himself and link to the historical sources he bases his argument on, which can then be checked and validated or invalidated accordingly. The websites he has linked to provide no references or sources so are academically worthless.

SabbathBlessings · Saturday at 8:33 AM

prodromos said:
Strawman. I'm referring to his claims about Easter.

Since @reddogs is only posting links to websites, I'm not about to waste my time responding to a site which cannot respond to critique. He needs to make the argument himself and link to the historical sources he bases his argument on, which can then be checked and validated or invalidated accordingly. The websites he has linked to provide no references or sources so are academically worthless.

Than before accusing the brethern, its best to actually be able to support through Scripture why they are wrong.

Confused-by-christianity · Saturday at 8:52 AM

jmldn2 said:
I'm not a scholar (far from it) of history of religion but I have never understood why the Christian world even is divided into "denominations." We are not saved because we are in a certain denomination

I'll take a guess. (it really is a guess. I have no idea).

In the old days it was just catholicism. You relied on them to tell you the way and you just believed in.

Then, someone said you dont need them, you can cut them out and figure it out yourself. You can get your information from the bible, by reading it yourself.

The bible and your interpretation of what you were reading became the super authority.

Only thing is, everyone reads it and thinks it means different things.

Why are there even denominations to begin with?

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