Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Jan001 · Jul 30, 2026

Brightfame52 said:
Jesus indicates Election of Some !

Election is perhaps the most despised Gospel doctrine in all the scripture. It magnifies the Sovereign Mercy of God in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus who is the only way of Salvation indicates it especially in John's Gospel. Listen to John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The words of Christ here "All that the Father giveth to me" denotes certain ones had been given to Him by His Father !

John 17:2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The words of Christ here "as many as thou hast given me" indicate only certain ones should He give eternal life to. Thats election .

Jesus Christ preached that obedience to God's commandments is necessary for salvation. Every Christian should believe him because God the Father appointed him to be our judge.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:3-4
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 13:20-23
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Brightfame52 · Friday at 9:32 AM

Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

Brightfame52 · Friday at 9:39 AM

Jan001 said:
Jesus Christ preached that obedience to God's commandments is necessary for salvation. Every Christian should believe him because God the Father appointed him to be our judge.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:3-4
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 13:20-23
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

"Your argument completely confuses the root of salvation with its fruit. Scripture never teaches that human obedience causes salvation; it teaches that obedience is the inevitable result of God's sovereign grace.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus isn't teaching salvation by legal obedience. He is using the Law to crush the Rich Young Ruler's self-righteousness. Jesus concludes the exact conversation in verse 26 by stating that salvation is humanly 'impossible,' but possible with God.

Texts like 1 John 2:3 state that keeping commandments is how we 'know that we know him.' Obedience is the outward evidence of regeneration, not the conditional cause of it. Under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:27), God explicitly states: 'I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes.' God secures the obedience of His elect.

Regarding Matthew 10:22 and enduring to the end: The elect endure precisely because Christ preserves them. As John 6:39 declares, it is the Father's absolute will that Christ 'should lose nothing' of all that was given to Him. If a believer could fail to endure and be cast into hell, Christ would have failed the Father's will—which is a theological impossibility.

The good ground in Matthew 13 bears fruit because God prepared the soil. The other soils never had true, rooted spiritual life. We do not work to be saved; we work because we are saved by unmerited, unshakeable grace."
[1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Jan001 · Friday at 11:14 AM

Brightfame52 said:
Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

God chose his "elect" people according to his omniscient foreknowledge of their every thought, word, and deed of their future physical life on earth. His "election" was conditional, not unconditional.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be yours in ever increasing measure.

Before the foundation of the world, God the Father gave the people he foreknew would be faithful—obeying his commandments until their death—to his son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus also reiterates the requirement that to enter eternal life, a person must obey God's commandments.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision (being a Jew) is nothing and uncircumcision (being a Gentile) is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Jan001 · Friday at 11:35 AM

Brightfame52 said:
"Your argument completely confuses the root of salvation with its fruit. Scripture never teaches that human obedience causes salvation; it teaches that obedience is the inevitable result of God's sovereign grace. ......The good ground in Matthew 13 bears fruit because God prepared the soil. The other soils never had true, rooted spiritual life. We do not work to be saved; we work because we are saved by unmerited, unshakeable grace."

A person gains eternal salvation by cooperating with God's grace—his Holy Spirit—until his death. He who endures faithfully to the end of his life in his obedience to God's commandments with the help of God's grace will spend eternity with God.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

The Christian who becomes disobedient and dies unrepentant will receive God's wrath for eternity. Titus 1:16, Ephesians 5:6, Hebrews 4:11

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

All unrepentant Christian liars are thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

David Lamb · Sunday at 3:01 AM

Jan001 said:
A person gains eternal salvation by cooperating with God's grace—his Holy Spirit—until his death. He who endures faithfully to the end of his life in his obedience to God's commandments with the help of God's grace will spend eternity with God.

Cooperating with God's grace? How do sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, cooperate with God's grace?

(Eph 2:4-5 NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Did Lazarus cooperate in his resurrection from the dead? Did he obey, and come forth from his tomb before being raised by Jesus Christ?

Note: My ability to access Christian Forums is very intermittent, so if you reply and I don't respond, please don't think I'm ignoring you.

zippy2006 · Sunday at 12:58 PM

David Lamb said:
(Eph 2:4-5 NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

zippy2006 said:
Keep reading. What does Paul say from Ephesians 4:17-5:20... ? On your reading Paul must be teaching "works salvation," particularly with things like this, "But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. [...] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph 5:3,5).

David Lamb · Monday at 2:31 AM

zippy2006 said:
Keep reading. What does Paul say from Ephesians 4:17-5:20... ? On your reading Paul must be teaching "works salvation," particularly with things like this, "But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. [...] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph 5:3,5).

My Reply:

The Epistle to the Ephesians was written to Christians. Paul begins the letter:

(Eph 1:1 NKJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

So in Ephesians 4:17-5:20 he is telling Christians how they should live their lives as Christians. He isn't telling them how to become Christians. (He reminded them in 2:1-10 how they had become Christians.) Paul is certainly not teaching works salvation, but good works to follow salvation.

Jan001 · Monday at 7:57 PM

David Lamb said:
Cooperating with God's grace? How do sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, cooperate with God's grace? (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

God desires for all people to be saved; therefore, he makes it possible.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Every person is given adequate grace to hear God calling them to repentance.

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates God's calling and the different responses of people to it.

David Lamb said:
Did Lazarus cooperate in his resurrection from the dead? Did he obey, and come forth from his tomb before being raised by Jesus Christ?

Lazarus immediately obeyed when Jesus commanded him to come out of the tomb.

David Lamb · Tuesday at 2:24 AM

Jan001 said:
God desires for all people to be saved; therefore, he makes it possible.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Every person is given adequate grace to hear God calling them to repentance.

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates God's calling and the different responses of people to it.

We are told in Scripture that God does everything that He wills to do:

(Isa 46:9-11 NKJV) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

So 1 Timothy 2:3-6 cannot mean that God wills for every person without exception to be saved, because if it did, everybody would be saved.

Jan001 said:
Lazarus immediately obeyed when Jesus commanded him to come out of the tomb.

Not whilst he was still dead. The command, "Lazarus, come forth" is similar to the command Jesus gave to Jairus's daughter, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." Neither Lazarus nor Jairus's daughter could obey the command given by Jesus without Him raising them to life.

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 9:06 AM

Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect. Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.

Thats the same as those Jesus said earlier as being the ones the Father gives Him shall come to Him Jn 6:37

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

Jan001 · Tuesday at 11:48 AM

David Lamb said:
We are told in Scripture that God does everything that He wills to do:

(Isa 46:9-11 NKJV) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

So 1 Timothy 2:3-6 cannot mean that God wills for every person without exception to be saved, because if it did, everybody would be saved.

We must choose for ourselves whether or not we will fulfil God's desire for us to be saved. Joshua 24:15
God doesn't force people to be saved. He doesn't prevent people from being saved. He desires for all to be saved, but most will choose sinfulness instead of obedience.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Jan001 · Tuesday at 11:55 AM

David Lamb said:
Not whilst he was still dead. The command, "Lazarus, come forth" is similar to the command Jesus gave to Jairus's daughter, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." Neither Lazarus nor Jairus's daughter could obey the command given by Jesus without Him raising them to life.

Jesus' command raised them from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Jan001 · Tuesday at 11:57 AM

Brightfame52 said:
Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect. Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.

Thats the same as those Jesus said earlier as being the ones the Father gives Him shall come to Him Jn 6:37

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

Please explain what you think Christians must do to literally "follow" Jesus.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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