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We also have good instincts. It's not like humans are just constantly driven to do evil and selfish things and have to be conditioned and forced to behave in a semi-civilised manner. In a crisis, people tend to help each other. Non-human animals also display signs of altruism, a sense of fairness and affection, though it's sometimes hard to parse them through our point of view. And those acts of altruism also are of benefit from an evolutionary point of view, like animals adopting babys that are not their own, which might not propagate their own genes, but helps the species as a whole.
The reality is more complicated than that. Although some animals adopt babies that aren't their own, sometimes even across species, other animals eat babies that aren't their own.

To be clear, my point was that humans have a conscience. Nowhere did I suggest that humans must be forced to behave in a semi-civilized manner. Though it certainly helps to be raised within an ethical and kind society rather than by wolves. That said, for most of us within society conscience is intrinsically motivated. The problem is that humans nevertheless have the capacity for evil. For antisocial behavior. Crime and war provide ample evidence for this. Throughout history, many individuals appeared to think that they couldn't possibly do anything wrong. A mindset that makes them conscience-blind (for lack of a better term) and more susceptible to committing atrocities. Unfortunately, for instance, many Nazis truly believed that they were good people doing the right thing when they were in fact mistaken.
 
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fhansen

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We must try to understand the self-destruction of Western civilization in psychological and spiritual terms, not only in political and ideological ones. I believe that the phenomenon essentially concerns a "narcissism of goodness" that manifests itself as a collective psychology. Traditionally, Christianity has instilled the insight into the divided nature of human beings: that no one is capable of being completely good. "No one is good," said Jesus. But today, people believe they can be good and perfect.

According to Christian anthropology, the human being has two wills, and these wills often stand in conflict within the divided self. Paul depicts this as the contrast between the old self and the new self, anchored in Adam and Christ respectively. Paul experiences a painful inner conflict between the old self, which he cannot free himself from, and the new self that is in Christ (Rom 7:19, 24). But Paul seems overly optimistic when he says that we can put off the old self and put on the new self as a new way of being (Ephesians 4:22-24). In reality, we must continue to live with both.

Augustine teaches that the self is divided: the will contains two opposing impulses, one towards God and one towards the world (Confessions VIII). This division is not pathological but a metaphysical condition that follows from our fallen nature. Achieving wholeness of the self is not possible, as perfect integration belongs only to the eschaton. The inner person grows, but the outer person is not destroyed in this life. Our duality cannot be eliminated, even if its tyranny can be broken. This is central to the Christian understanding of the false and the true self: we must remain divided, but we must also remain aware of our divided nature.

According to Luther, the Christian is "simul iustus et peccator," at once righteous and a sinner, which is the permanent state of the Christian. The old Adam never disappears. Luther sharply criticizes the striving to achieve "saintliness," which he sees as an attempt to purify the will and achieve wholeness of the self. The more a person strives to be holy, the more he becomes a sinner. In his commentary on Galatians, Luther writes: "The saints are sinners, and they are holy not in themselves but in Christ." He therefore adds in the Table Talk: "God hates the saints that man creates."

For Luther, psychological and spiritual health depends on awareness of our dividedness, which leads to confession and forgiveness. The self is healed by being forgiven, not by becoming unified. The believer does not become less sinful, but becomes more aware of sin and more dependent on grace. In comparison, psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott reverses this structure: psychological health requires that our dividedness be removed, producing a unified self and perfect spontaneity. His theory aims at amalgamation, a fusion of inner and outer worlds into a single field of experience, the so-called transitional space. In doing so, he rejects the anthropology of Christianity.

Thus it is a distinctly modern idea that we should strive to become a unified self that is truly good and perfect, an aspiration Christian theology rejects as a sinful pursuit of self‑salvation. For Augustine, this is equivalent to pride (superbia). But Paul also speaks in 1 Timothy 6:17 about enjoying life, and this can be understood as a reference to the Adam within us who seeks earthly joy and satisfaction. Augustine arrives at a similar conclusion. We should not abandon the world but remain in it as pilgrims. In Luther's terms, avoiding saintliness means admitting that the sinner within us must sometimes make use of the world's goods. He wrote to Melanchthon: "Sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly."

Luther did not encourage moral laxity. He told Melanchthon to stop trying to achieve purity or saintliness, and instead to trust in Christ's righteousness rather than his own. He urged him to stop trying to unify the self and to stop obsessing over inner moral perfection. In modern Luther research, "sin boldly" is understood as Luther's rejection of moral perfectionism and the futility of striving for inner wholeness. Instead, we should give priority to the external righteousness given to us by Christ and reject mystical self-healing. Luther does not encourage sin, but he forbids attempts to eradicate sin, make the self unified, or purify the will.

We must still keep our dark side in check, or society will fall apart. And we can do this precisely because we recognize our divided nature and our imperfection. People who lack this awareness and see themselves as ideal or spotless often fall into destructive patterns of falseness and moralism, and then they become truly evil. We harm ourselves if we are too sinful, but we also harm ourselves if we are too righteous. Ecclesiastes 7:16 expresses this clearly: "Do not be overly righteous... Why should you destroy yourself?" Today, many institutions in the Western world, including parts of the Christian church, are marked by a kind of moral absolutism that denies the divided nature of the human being. Thus, they risk repeating the very pattern that Ecclesiastes warns against. The goodness-narcissists dominate the Western world today, and their influence is driving its self-destruction.

The traditional awareness of original sin, and the corresponding need for continual self-recognition of one's sinful nature, has largely disappeared. The consequence is that people are afflicted by goodness-narcissism, which is the worst form of sinfulness. This fuels the urge to tear down civilization, since civilization is judged evil for surviving through power: prisons, repression, borders, labour systems, resource extraction, and even war. All of this is today interpreted as evil and oppression, in accordance with postcolonial theory, critical race theory, identity politics, and all kinds of radicalism and antimilitarism.

Quite simply, if we are to be holy, civilization cannot be sustained. When identity politics was established, "Western civilization" became a symbol of power, dominance, and privilege. This creates a situation where criticism of the West is not merely historical or political, but moral and existential. Civilization becomes an obstacle to "liberation," understood as the realization of Rousseau's ideal of the perfectly good natural human being. Without a living insight into original sin and the permanently divided nature of the human being, we lose the only antidote to moral absolutism.

When humanity forgets its own dark nature, it becomes dangerous, precisely because it believes itself to be good. Ecclesiastes warns precisely against this self-destructive pursuit of over-righteousness. A civilization that denies its own inner ambivalence inevitably repeats the same pattern: it tries to become purer than any human society can bear, and collapses under the weight of its own supposed goodness.
IMO this is simply telling us that self-righteousness is the precursor or foundation for sin, the true flaw of fallen man, which it is. But isn’t that the point of our faith, that man’s “righteousness” actually equates to distance from God; his pride being what’s wrong with him, resulting in all the moral evils in this world? It's sort of epitomized in the Pharisees, or many of them apparently. And, since Christ came to reconcile man with God, isn't true righteousness, that which man was made for since he wasn’t created to be a sinner, now to begin here as that reconciliation is realized, rather than only in the eschaton?

The self is healed by being forgiven, not by becoming unified. The believer does not become less sinful, but becomes more aware of sin and more dependent on grace.
And if our healing consists only of forgiveness, and we can/should sin and sin boldly, should an adulterer, thief, murderer, etc consider themselves to be saved as long as they believe, whether or not they continue in their sins?
We must still keep our dark side in check, or society will fall apart. And we can do this precisely because we recognize our divided nature and our imperfection.
This sounds something like Pelagianism, doesn’t it? So we can’t be and shouldn’t try to be holier but we can and must be holier anyway, due primarily to a recognition of our sinfulness and our attempts at being less sinful even if only for practical reasons?
We harm ourselves if we are too sinful, but we also harm ourselves if we are too righteous.
There's just something confused in this statement. Either we're unable to overcome sin or we're not. And, if it's possible to be truly righteous at all, then how can anyone be too righteous? We may not overcome sin perfectly in this life but to me, the real enemy is our own pride/self-righteousness that we must be on gaurd against, thinking we've already "arrived", on our own, as against the true righteousness that comes only from God and our relationship or union with Him.
 
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Neogaia777

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My morality now comes from two Bible passages/verses now mainly, the Parable of the Two Sons found in Matthew 21:28-32, and Luke 17:10.

You only do it now because you have repented, and it is only what you know you should have been doing all along. No pride, no bragging rights, etc. You just do it now because it's what you now know you should have doing/way you should have been acting/treating others, all along. Good just because it's good and you now know you should, etc. And comes with a knowing that you're just an unprofitable servant, especially with a past like your own, etc. God has been merciful to you/shown mercy upon you, and that's all, etc. So now you do only what you should have been doing all along.

God Bless.
 
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IMO this is simply telling us that self-righteousness is the precursor or foundation for sin, the true flaw of fallen man, which it is. But isn’t that the point of our faith, that man’s “righteousness” actually equates to distance from God; his pride being what’s wrong with him, resulting in all the moral evils in this world? It's sort of epitomized in the Pharisees, or many of them apparently. And, since Christ came to reconcile man with God, isn't true righteousness, that which man was made for since he wasn’t created to be a sinner, now to begin here as that reconciliation is realized, rather than only in the eschaton?
Paul says that we have been reconciled but that we will be saved (Romans 5:10). Both statements are true simultaneously. In this sense, reconciliation is a present reality for the believer and the foundation of Christian life now. True righteousness therefore begins now, not only in the eschaton. This is the inaugurated dimension of salvation. Yet there is also the unfulfilled, eschatological dimension.

Reconciliation is not fully realized because sin still remains, the self is still divided, the world is still fallen, and the fullness of union with God lies in the future. This is why Augustine says that the will is divided until the end. Grace heals, but does not perfect, in this life. Reconciliation is real, but not complete. The tension is resolved by the "already/not yet" structure, which avoids several dangers at once: Pelagianism (we perfect ourselves), antinomianism (sin does not matter), moral perfectionism (we can become whole), and moral despair (we cannot grow at all).
And if our healing consists only of forgiveness, and we can/should sin and sin boldly, should an adulterer, thief, murderer, etc consider themselves to be saved as long as they believe, whether or not they continue in their sins?
Forgiveness is the foundation, but it is not the whole of salvation. Reconciliation is real now, though not yet complete. The believer is not perfected, yet neither is he left unchanged. Grace is real, and forgiveness is real. The presence of sin does not nullify reconciliation. But a believer who continues in sin without repentance is not living in the reconciliation Paul describes. Persistent, unrepentant sin is not a sign of faith but of resistance to grace. Faith is not mere assent; it is trust that produces inward transformation, even if imperfect and incomplete.

This is why the "already/not yet" structure matters. Already the believer is reconciled, forgiven, and accepted. Yet salvation is also not yet, because the believer is still being healed, still being sanctified, still being called out of sin. If you collapse the "already," you get Pelagianism: salvation by moral achievement. If you collapse the "not yet," you get antinomianism: salvation without transformation. Paul holds both together.

Grace does not perfect us in this life, but it does not leave us unchanged either. The believer may fall, but he cannot settle into sin as a permanent home. Repentance is the sign of life; complacency is the sign of death.
This sounds something like Pelagianism, doesn’t it? So we can’t be and shouldn’t try to be holier but we can and must be holier anyway, due primarily to a recognition of our sinfulness and our attempts at being less sinful even if only for practical reasons?
No, it is not Pelagianism to say that we cannot overcome our duality and our sinfulness. In fact, it is the opposite of Pelagianism. Pelagianism teaches that we can overcome sin by our own effort. Augustine, Luther, and Paul all insist that we cannot. We cannot perfect ourselves, but we cannot be complacent either. We cannot eradicate sin, but we cannot make peace with it. We cannot become whole, but we cannot stop resisting the dark side.

This is exactly Paul's "already/not yet" structure. We do not strive to become holy in order to save ourselves. We strive against sin because we are already saved, and only because we are already saved do we have the power to strive against sin at all.

This resolves the apparent contradiction in your question. You wrote: "So we can't be and shouldn't try to be holier but we can and must be holier anyway…" The confusion disappears once you distinguish perfection from growth. We cannot become perfectly holy, but we must still grow in our awareness of sin. This is not moralism.
There's just something confused in this statement. Either we're unable to overcome sin or we're not. And, if it's possible to be truly righteous at all, then how can anyone be too righteous? We may not overcome sin perfectly in this life but to me, the real enemy is our own pride/self-righteousness that we must be on gaurd against, thinking we've already "arrived", on our own, as against the true righteousness that comes only from God and our relationship or union with Him.
The confusion disappears once we distinguish two different questions: (1) Can we overcome sin perfectly? (2) Can we resist sin meaningfully?

No, we cannot overcome sin perfectly in this life. The divided self remains, the old Adam remains, and the will remains conflicted. But yes, we can resist sin meaningfully, though only by grace. Not by self-effort and not by moral heroism, but by living from the reconciliation already given.

So when you say, "Either we're unable to overcome sin or we're not," the problem is that overcome is ambiguous. If it means eradicate, then no, we cannot. If it means resist, then yes, but only because grace empowers us. Again, this is Paul's "already/not yet" structure. True righteousness does begin now, but not as perfection. It begins as relationship, not achievement; as union, not self-righteousness.

And this leads to your second question: "If it's possible to be truly righteous at all, how can anyone be too righteous?" Scripture distinguishes true righteousness, which comes from God, from self-righteousness, which comes from pride. Ecclesiastes warns against being "overly righteous" because that refers to self-manufactured righteousness, the attempt to purify oneself, unify the self, or "arrive" spiritually. That is exactly the danger Augustine and Luther identify.
 
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CIA Agent #1029

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I know more than you do. If you see anybody try to convince you of this: "don't do good because it can actually be bad", then know they're lying or repeating the words of liars out of ignorance. God does not punish good deeds.
Isn't being good often the most effective way of doing evil?
No.
Has the United States not bombed people out of a sense of moral righteousness?
The people who did the bombing did it for the money. The people who gave the orders were pieces of hot garbage, and they did crimes because they're criminal. They only clothed it as righteous for the masses. And the masses who believed it are ignorant or lack critical thinking skills.
Are university cancellations not carried out in the name of virtue?
I don't know what that is, no comment.
Moralism is a destructive force, and both Jesus and Paul are relentless in opposing it.

Their target is the moralistic spirit, exemplified by the Judaizer who weaponizes the Law to dominate others. Their critique is not of goodness but of goodness-as-power, goodness-as-self-exaltation. In this sense, moralism is not merely a mistake; it is a spiritual pathology.

Nietzsche argues that moral righteousness is often a mask for resentment, domination, and cruelty: "Moralities are the masks of power." He shows how "goodness" becomes a tool for punishing others while feeling virtuous.

René Girard's theory of scapegoating shows how communities expel individuals in the name of "the good," convinced of their own righteousness. The scapegoat mechanism is always moralized: the victim is portrayed as a threat to purity, unity, or virtue. Contemporary university cancellations follow this pattern with remarkable precision.

Ivan Illich, in Medical Nemesis and Deschooling Society, argues that institutions founded on moral ideals, such as health, education and welfare, often generate outcomes directly opposed to their stated aims. The more "good" they intend, the more destructive their unintended consequences become. Illich calls this "the shadow side of institutionalized virtue." It is precisely this dynamic that explains the morality of "bombing out of goodness."
Because the people in charge of these projects are criminals and liars, that's why the effect is counter to what they claim.
Kierkegaard attacks the moralistic complacency of Christendom, where people believe themselves good because they conform to social norms. He calls this "the most dangerous form of evil," and it is precisely the evil Jesus confronts in the Gospels.

Hannah Arendt shows how bureaucrats commit atrocities not out of hatred but out of moral duty, obedience, and the desire to "do the right thing." Evil becomes banal when it is moralized. This is a secular version of Paul's critique of the Law.

How can good become the engine of evil? Christian theology has long insisted, Augustine most clearly, that evil has no independent substance. It is parasitic, feeding on the good that God has created. Deprived of that good, evil collapses into its own chaos and incoherence. Its only power is borrowed power.

For this reason, the greater the good, the greater the possible distortion. Evil thrives only where goodness is abundant. It insinuates itself into what is healthy, true, and life-giving, building upon those very gifts until it reaches the limit beyond which God does not permit it to go.

This is why we cannot imagine ourselves living in an age where evil is slowly disappearing. The opposite is true. Wherever genuine goods flourish evil finds new hosts: in technological power, moral zeal, political idealism, religious conviction. Evil is a leech, and our age is thick with leeches.


The psychologist Carl Jung argues that "one of the toughest roots of all evil is unconsciousness" (Psychology and Religion: West and East, para. 291). He explains again and again that unconsciousness is the primary root of evil, the condition that allows destructive forces to operate unchecked. This is why Jung insists that genuine moral effort must be directed towards the expansion of consciousness rather than towards moralistic self-perfection. Evil thrives where people refuse to know themselves.

Jesus makes a similar demand for a union of moral clarity and strategic intelligence: "Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matthew 10:16). The force of the saying is that Christian action must hold both qualities together: moral uprightness without naivety, and shrewd discernment without malice. It is not easy to combine a dove and a serpent. In fact, it is extraordinarily difficult to be a truly good person. Innocence without awareness is no virtue, because naïve people leave the door wide open for evil.
What I know is this: you have people who care to be good; you have people who don't care; and you have hypocrites, but it's not a proper description because English doesn't have a word for them. The hypocrites intend to do bad but say they're doing good. They are plainly lying. Their goal is to do as much damage as possible; your real enemy will never tell you that they're your enemy, they will get close to you and stab you in the back. Yes, this is illogical behaviour, but this type of person does exist. And I think this is what you're trying to describe.

Funny thing though, sometimes it's that very 'moral' compass that leads people to do atrocious things.
No, people who want to do good will do good. American soldiers who bombed children "for freedom" or "for america" were lying, they did it for the money, for example. No one whose actions are good will ever bomb children or do similar things.
The question is, when 'morality' turns into 'superiority'... is it still morality?
No.
 
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partinobodycular

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No, people who want to do good will do good.

Personally, I've abandoned the pretense of acting out of morality, and instead, have simply chosen to be kind. I'll leave it to others to judge whether it was good or not.
 
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Teofrastus

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I know more than you do. If you see anybody try to convince you of this: "don't do good because it can actually be bad", then know they're lying or repeating the words of liars out of ignorance. God does not punish good deeds.

No.

The people who did the bombing did it for the money. The people who gave the orders were pieces of hot garbage, and they did crimes because they're criminal. They only clothed it as righteous for the masses. And the masses who believed it are ignorant or lack critical thinking skills.

I don't know what that is, no comment.



Because the people in charge of these projects are criminals and liars, that's why the effect is counter to what they claim.

What I know is this: you have people who care to be good; you have people who don't care; and you have hypocrites, but it's not a proper description because English doesn't have a word for them. The hypocrites intend to do bad but say they're doing good. They are plainly lying. Their goal is to do as much damage as possible; your real enemy will never tell you that they're your enemy, they will get close to you and stab you in the back. Yes, this is illogical behaviour, but this type of person does exist. And I think this is what you're trying to describe.


No, people who want to do good will do good. American soldiers who bombed children "for freedom" or "for america" were lying, they did it for the money, for example. No one whose actions are good will ever bomb children or do similar things.

No.
It's remarkable that you haven't heard of cancel culture. It reflects a moral outlook antithetical to Christian morality. In Christian theology, such a "moral compass" would fall under original sin. Beyond that, your message doesn't merit a reply.
 
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partinobodycular

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It's remarkable that you haven't heard of cancel culture. It reflects a moral outlook antithetical to Christian morality. In Christian theology, such a "moral compass" would fall under original sin.

I'm admittedly out of touch, but I didn't realize that cancel culture was confined to any particular ideology... unless it's 'the other guy's'.
 
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fhansen

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Paul says that we have been reconciled but that we will be saved (Romans 5:10). Both statements are true simultaneously. In this sense, reconciliation is a present reality for the believer and the foundation of Christian life now. True righteousness therefore begins now, not only in the eschaton. This is the inaugurated dimension of salvation. Yet there is also the unfulfilled, eschatological dimension.

Reconciliation is not fully realized because sin still remains, the self is still divided, the world is still fallen, and the fullness of union with God lies in the future. This is why Augustine says that the will is divided until the end. Grace heals, but does not perfect, in this life. Reconciliation is real, but not complete. The tension is resolved by the "already/not yet" structure, which avoids several dangers at once: Pelagianism (we perfect ourselves), antinomianism (sin does not matter), moral perfectionism (we can become whole), and moral despair (we cannot grow at all).
Forgiveness is the foundation, but it is not the whole of salvation. Reconciliation is real now, though not yet complete. The believer is not perfected, yet neither is he left unchanged. Grace is real, and forgiveness is real. The presence of sin does not nullify reconciliation. But a believer who continues in sin without repentance is not living in the reconciliation Paul describes. Persistent, unrepentant sin is not a sign of faith but of resistance to grace. Faith is not mere assent; it is trust that produces inward transformation, even if imperfect and incomplete.

This is why the "already/not yet" structure matters. Already the believer is reconciled, forgiven, and accepted. Yet salvation is also not yet, because the believer is still being healed, still being sanctified, still being called out of sin. If you collapse the "already," you get Pelagianism: salvation by moral achievement. If you collapse the "not yet," you get antinomianism: salvation without transformation. Paul holds both together.

Grace does not perfect us in this life, but it does not leave us unchanged either. The believer may fall, but he cannot settle into sin as a permanent home. Repentance is the sign of life; complacency is the sign of death.
And this is all pretty consistent with the historic Christian faith since the beginning, as I see it, even if worded a bit differently, perhaps. Reconciliation is already but not yet complete, as is salvation. Persistence in grave sin either means one was never a believer to begin with, or left the fold and returned to sin/the world, etc. And as I see it, to the the extent that one is "perfected in love", truly loving God with His whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself, his reconciliation, salvation, and created purpose would be complete, presumably not fully possbile until the next life. We're just neophytes here, babes in Christ, really.

And even faith, itself, is a gift of grace that can be ignored, rejected, etc. One of the main concerns, IMO, is to ensure that we don't view all human righteousness as hypocritical or self-serving. Communion with God, the object of faith, means a relationship by which God the Holy Spirit lives and acts in and through us, by the love He pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5) which is why love is said to be a hallmark of a follower. In fact, actions done out of mercy and compassion (Hosea 6:6): love for God and/or neighbor (both being interrelated), are inherently right. OTOH, a person can also radically fail to love, born out by the way they live, and persistence in this can earn one death all over again.
The confusion disappears once we distinguish two different questions: (1) Can we overcome sin perfectly? (2) Can we resist sin meaningfully?

No, we cannot overcome sin perfectly in this life. The divided self remains, the old Adam remains, and the will remains conflicted. But yes, we can resist sin meaningfully, though only by grace. Not by self-effort and not by moral heroism, but by living from the reconciliation already given.

So when you say, "Either we're unable to overcome sin or we're not," the problem is that overcome is ambiguous. If it means eradicate, then no, we cannot. If it means resist, then yes, but only because grace empowers us. Again, this is Paul's "already/not yet" structure. True righteousness does begin now, but not as perfection. It begins as relationship, not achievement; as union, not self-righteousness.

And this leads to your second question: "If it's possible to be truly righteous at all, how can anyone be too righteous?" Scripture distinguishes true righteousness, which comes from God, from self-righteousness, which comes from pride. Ecclesiastes warns against being "overly righteous" because that refers to self-manufactured righteousness, the attempt to purify oneself, unify the self, or "arrive" spiritually. That is exactly the danger Augustine and Luther identify.
No argument. This, again, is consistent with how the faith was taught for centuries. Both legalism and antinomianism are easy enough for humans to slip into, however, and people, along with teachers, do it all the time. We need to keep being reminded of God's true way, the gospel..
 
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fhansen

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No, it is not Pelagianism to say that we cannot overcome our duality and our sinfulness. In fact, it is the opposite of Pelagianism. Pelagianism teaches that we can overcome sin by our own effort.
The actual quote I responded to and objected to appeared, to me, to be speaking about being righteous by our own effort. But apparently I misunderstood.
 
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And this is all pretty consistent with the historic Christian faith since the beginning, as I see it, even if worded a bit differently, perhaps. Reconciliation is already but not yet complete, as is salvation. Persistence in grave sin either means one was never a believer to begin with, or left the fold and returned to sin/the world, etc. And as I see it, to the the extent that one is "perfected in love", truly loving God with His whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself, his reconciliation, salvation, and created purpose would be complete, presumably not fully possbile until the next life. We're just neophytes here, babes in Christ, really.

And even faith, itself, is a gift of grace that can be ignored, rejected, etc. One of the main concerns, IMO, is to ensure that we don't view all human righteousness as hypocritical or self-serving. Communion with God, the object of faith, means a relationship by which God the Holy Spirit lives and acts in and through us, by the love He pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5) which is why love is said to be a hallmark of a follower. In fact, actions done out of mercy and compassion (Hosea 6:6): love for God and/or neighbor (both being interrelated), are inherently right. OTOH, a person can also radically fail to love, born out by the way they live, and persistence in this can earn one death all over again.

No argument. This, again, is consistent with how the faith was taught for centuries. Both legalism and antinomianism are easy enough for humans to slip into, however, and people, along with teachers, do it all the time. We need to keep being reminded of God's true way, the gospel..
There is a persistent temptation built into the very ideal of walking the path of righteousness: the desire to appear righteous, above all to oneself, rather than to actually choose the good. Genuine righteousness often requires actions that look unrighteous to others, because they disturb the comfortable moral fictions that communities build around themselves. The performance of virtue is always easier, always safer, and always more socially rewarded than the costly integrity that overturns the tables in the temple square.

The danger is subtle. Once "being righteous" becomes an identity one wishes to inhabit, the moral life shifts from discerning the good to curating a self-image. One begins to prefer the glow of moral self-approval to the hard clarity of moral responsibility. And because communities reward visible conformity far more than disruptive fidelity, the temptation grows: it is simpler to be seen as good than to do the good that threatens the social order.

Righteousness, then, is not merely a matter of choosing the right action: it is a matter of resisting the narcotic of moral appearance. The one who overturns the tables may look unrighteous to the crowd, but the crowd's approval has never been the measure of righteousness. The deeper danger is that the crowd's approval becomes the measure for oneself.

In our present reality, "overturning the tables" might mean speaking the truth about the damaging impact of Third World immigration, even if it means being branded a Nazi or a racist by the crowd. Most Christians, I would argue, would never do this, preferring instead to walk a path of outward virtue aligned with globalist liberal humanism.

When Jesus confronts the Pharisees, we should not imagine them as distant figures safely confined to history. Their spirit is alive in the hypocrisies of modern Christian life. To read the Bible truthfully is to let it expose today's realities, not merely to rehearse yesterday's.
 
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partinobodycular

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Righteousness, then, is not merely a matter of choosing the right action: it is a matter of resisting the narcotic of moral appearance.

So why is it that I can't help but read your posts and think how hypocritical they are?
 
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Neogaia777

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I've been a victim of cancel culture I think, in that others have gotten together to try and cancel me/silence me I think. Of course, I can't be sure, because I also have a mental disability. But if I have, or if they did try, some of it might have been justified in the past maybe, but only some of it though, but not now though. Since my understanding has grown, I think they would be wrong to try and cancel/silence me now, etc. And I'm not sure if any of it is still happening now either (because of my mental health problems/disability) but I think it might have been happening in the past though, and out in public, but I still can't be sure though, but I think it would be wrong of them to try and do it to me now, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Teofrastus

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So why is it that I can't help but read your posts and think how hypocritical they are?
It's because you commit the cardinal sin of "shadow projection." It is the process by which a person attributes their own disowned, unconscious traits to other people instead of recognizing them in themselves. These traits are usually negative, painful, or socially unacceptable. As one commentator puts it: "Shadow projection, as the transference of personal inferiority, and the related concept of sin transference, lie at the heart of the mystery of evil" (Mysterium Iniquitatis).
 
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Neogaia777

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I've been a victim of cancel culture I think, in that others have gotten together to try and cancel me/silence me I think. Of course, I can't be sure, because I also have a mental disability. But if I have, or if they did try, some of it might have been justified in the past maybe, but only some of it though, but not now though. Since my understanding has grown, I think they would be wrong to try and cancel/silence me now, etc. And I'm not sure if any of it is still happening now either (because of my mental health problems/disability) but I think it might have been happening in the past though, and out in public, but I still can't be sure though, but I think it would be wrong of them to try and do it to me now, etc.

God Bless.
There was a time not too long ago that I wasn't any different from any other christian/religious person, but that's all different now, etc.

But, in my opinion some religious folks deserve to face cancel culture head-on and first-hand just like I did, etc. It's a very humbling experience, and so, might be good for a lot of you, etc. Not everything about cancel culture is evil, and some of it is just, or can be justified, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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There was a time not too long ago that I wasn't any different from any other christian/religious person, but that's all different now, etc.

But, in my opinion some religious folks deserve to face cancel culture head-on and first-hand just like I did, etc. It's a very humbling experience, and so, might be good for a lot of you, etc. Not everything about cancel culture is evil, and some of it is just, or can be justified, etc.

God Bless.
If it wasn't the people themselves that have done it to me, or that have been trying to do it to me, then I have reasoned that it could be some spirits in them without their knowledge, etc. But the real truth is that it's unknowable for 100% certain, because it could all just be a part of what's going on or happening with me mentally as well, etc. But they do try to cancel you/shut you up though, etc. And it is a very humbling/humiliating experience as well, etc. But also if you handle it correctly, your understanding does grow, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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If it wasn't the people themselves that have done it to me, or that have been trying to do it to me, then I have reasoned that it could be some spirits in them without their knowledge, etc. But the real truth is that it's unknowable for 100% certain, because it could all just be a part of what's going on or happening with me mentally as well, etc. But they do try to cancel you/shut you up though, etc. And it is a very humbling/humiliating experience as well, etc. But also if you handle it correctly, your understanding does grow, etc.

God Bless.
It took me a while to figure out how to handle it correctly, and I still don't do it perfectly though. Hence my mental health, etc.

God Bless.
 
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partinobodycular

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It took me a while to figure out how to handle it correctly, and I still don't do it perfectly though. Hence my mental health, etc.

I will admit that I did block you for a while. But the more that I read your posts, the more I'm able to follow your thought processes, and although I often disagree with them, I find myself agreeing with them more often than I used to. It just took me time. There's a reason why people are the way that they are... sometimes you just have to have the patience to find it... oh, and you also have to care enough to look for it.
 
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partinobodycular

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It's because you commit the cardinal sin of "shadow projection." It is the process by which a person attributes their own disowned, unconscious traits to other people instead of recognizing them in themselves.

Ah, the old 'I'm rubber you're glue' defense, translated into 'philosophy speak'... brilliant.
 
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Teofrastus

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If it wasn't the people themselves that have done it to me, or that have been trying to do it to me, then I have reasoned that it could be some spirits in them without their knowledge, etc. But the real truth is that it's unknowable for 100% certain, because it could all just be a part of what's going on or happening with me mentally as well, etc. But they do try to cancel you/shut you up though, etc. And it is a very humbling/humiliating experience as well, etc. But also if you handle it correctly, your understanding does grow, etc.

God Bless.
When Jesus confronts the Pharisees and Sadducees, and when he corrects the simple-minded disciples, we should not imagine them as distant figures safely confined to history. Their spirit is alive in the hypocrisies and inanities of modern Christian life. To read the Bible truthfully is to let it expose the realities of today, not merely to rehearse the events of yesterday. We, the readers, are the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the dull-witted disciples. If we think otherwise and treat them as the "enemy" or the "ignorant," we are simply projecting our own shadow and reenacting a familiar pattern of cancel culture: shutting out "the others" who are not good Christians like us.

The Bible is structured to lure the reader into self-complacency and shadow projection, encouraging us to reject the culprits and identify with the righteous. Only then does the realization strike: we are the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the dim-witted disciples. In exposing us as the sinners we are, Scripture awakens the very awareness of sin that the Holy Spirit imposes.

The Bible functions as a winnowing fan, separating wheat from chaff. Many remain trapped in projection, never recognizing that they themselves are the culprits Jesus confronts, destined unless awakened for a fire that is not extinguished.
 
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