• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Disputed doctrine.

concretecamper

I stand with Candace
Nov 23, 2013
7,780
3,036
PA
✟378,174.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and until the 5th century, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you until the 5th Century

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, which until the 5th Century will be the pillar and ground of the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,499
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,727.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christians dispute many things but none more vehemently than the doctrines that divide them. Consider these:
  1. Credo baptism
  2. Sabbatarianism
  3. The number of sacraments
  4. The canon of holy scripture
  5. The use of doctrinal standards
  6. The proper interpretation of the holy scriptures
  7. Symbolic sacraments that perform no effective mediation of any graces
  8. Rejection of confession and penance
  9. Rejection of bishops
  10. Predestination both to glory and to perdition
  11. Submersion in baptism
  12. The real absence
  13. Rejection of vestments
  14. Rejection of the Crucifix
  15. Rejection of prayers to and through the saints
  16. Rejection of postmortem cleansing of souls
  17. ... many many more.
It makes one wonder how Christians can ever hope to find a way to mutual respect and shared communion.
And MARK. 16:16. SAYS !!

#1 HE THAT //. HO is a DEFINITE ARTICLE. inv v the NOMINATIVE CASE in the SINGULAR

#2 BELIEVETH. // PISTEUO in. the AORIST TENSE. in. the NOMINATIVE TENSE in. the SINGULAR.

#3 AND //. is a CONJUNCTION

#4 IS BAPTIZED // PISEUO in. the AORIST TENSE in. the PASSIVE VOICE in. the SINGULAR

#5. SHALL BE SAVED //. SOZO in. the FUTURE TENSE in the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the SIGNULAR

#6 BUT. // DE. is a CONJUNCTION

#7 HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT //. APIOSTEO. in. the AORIST TENSE in. the ACTIVE VOICE in. the NOMINATIVE CASE.

in v the SINGULAR

# 8. SHALL BE DEMNED //. KATAKRINO. in. the FUITURE TENSE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the SINGULAR

dan p
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,499
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,727.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and until the 5th century, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you until the 5th Century

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, which until the 5th Century will be the pillar and ground of the truth.
And I BELIEVE that there are two groups ISRAEL !!

And the BODY of CHRIST !!

And in 2 PETER. 3:16 where Peter says that what Paul has written are HARD to under STAND UNTO THEIR

their OWN DESTRUCTION. AS Paul is the APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES and NOT PETER

dan p
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,499
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,727.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Translation: the truth is only found in SDA doctrine.
Therefore , do not let anyone. JUDGE you in. EATING or. in. Dringingor in resp[ect of a FEAST. DAY or NEW MOON

OR SABBATHE. !!

And Paul is writing to the BODY of CHRIST as he is the APOSTLE to the GENTILES !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hyperbole is used to make a point and the audience is fully aware the story is not true. As I've said, when Jesus said He was a door people did not ask "How can this man be made of wood?"
At least twice now I've given examples of Jesus being misunderstood and you just keep repeating the same thing.
Nor was Jesus in the habit of making up stories, insisting He was speaking about what was "true" and losing disciples because they believed Him. This essential teaching, so well said by Jesus in John 6, is the "source and summit" of the Catholic faith, and masses have been taking place now for almost 2000 years. I do understand it is a "hard saying." If this can be explained away as symbolic because Jesus sometimes used symbolism so could virtually every other teaching of Jesus. To me, and people have a right to disagree and I know they do, the questions and answers make the truth clear.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and until the 5th century, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you until the 5th Century

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, which until the 5th Century will be the pillar and ground of the truth.
The foundation endures. Which is why this forum exists.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,703
6,325
Minnesota
✟399,678.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
At least twice now I've given examples of Jesus being misunderstood and you just keep repeating the same thing.
It doesn't logically follow that because Jesus was at times misunderstood that he must have been misunderstood in this particular instance. Jesus was an excellent teacher and often made Himself clear.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It doesn't logically follow that because Jesus was at times misunderstood that he must have been misunderstood in this particular instance. Jesus was an excellent teacher and often made Himself clear.
I said it's possible Jesus was misunderstood. You said Jesus was never misunderstood. I gave examples of Jesus clearly being misunderstood.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Therefore , do not let anyone. JUDGE you in. EATING or. in. Dringingor in resp[ect of a FEAST. DAY or NEW MOON

OR SABBATHE. !!

And Paul is writing to the BODY of CHRIST as he is the APOSTLE to the GENTILES !!

dan p
Christians being SDA isn't what I was talking about. I addressed the very clear implication that the truth is exclusive to Seventh Day Adventism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,703
6,325
Minnesota
✟399,678.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I said it's possible Jesus was misunderstood. You said Jesus was never misunderstood. I gave examples of Jesus clearly being misunderstood.
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. It wasn't me who said that Jesus was never misunderstood.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. It wasn't me who said that Jesus was never misunderstood.
So we are in agreement then that what Jesus said in John 6 might have been misunderstood then and now.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
40,503
30,286
Pacific Northwest
✟869,389.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Nonsense. A mainstream Christian that loves the Lord is not unworthy to receive communion. Open communion churches like mine also have the same scripture. Haven’t seen one keel over yet.

I can appreciate arguments both in favor of Open Communion, and arguments in favor of Closed Communion.

As a Lutheran I have been part of churches which have been on opposite sides of this issue. Though I am, presently, a member of a church which practices Closed Communion.

In defense of Closed Communion, the central position isn't to deny other Christians that they are, indeed, Christians. Every Christian is a Christian by virtue of their faith in Christ and their baptism. All who are baptized are, indeed, the property of Jesus Christ; all who believe in Him belong to Him. The matter of Closed Communion, however, is ultimately about a couple matters (Everything that follows will be from an explicitly Lutheran perspective):

1. Confession. When we come to the Table of the Lord we are giving our "Amen" to a shared belief, we are con (together) fessing (declaring) that this is, indeed, the true body and blood of Jesus Christ which was broken and shed for us. The Table is where the Church proclaims her unity of faith--if we are not, indeed, in a state of unity of faith, then there is a sense in which we are betraying what the Table signifies; and if we are not confessing that this is the true body and true blood of Jesus then we are betraying the Table itself--for it is, indeed, the true body and true blood of Jesus Christ.

1b. Counter Argument: Since the Table is the true body and true blood of Jesus Christ, then when one partakes of the Table they receive the true body and true blood of Jesus, even if one does not recognize it; it remains the precious Means of Grace by which Christ offers Himself, and the forgiveness of our sins, and God's mercy remains delivered through the Means because the Means of Grace depends not on man's ability or intellect, but on God's word and promise. Since it is the Table of Christ, not the Church's Table, then Christ is Lord over His Table and whosoever partakes in this bread and partakes in this wine partakes of the body and blood of Christ which He freely offers. In the same way that, though an infant may not comprehend intellectually what happens in the precious gift of Baptism, but receives grace freely according to the word and promise of God; so does one who partakes of the Table receive freely what is freely offered. So that even though there is failure in understanding, there cannot be failure with God and His word.

2. There is the spiritual danger of not properly discerning the body (and blood) of the Lord in the Table and therefore one who comes to the Table not discerning Christ's own body, is (as the Apostle writes to the Corinthians) actually eating and drinking to their own destruction. Therefore while the Table is Christ's, and the Church is not master over the Table and only Christ is, the Church still have a responsibility to properly administer the Table--a servant must serve faithfully, a steward must steward properly. And Christ has entrusted His Table to His Church. Therefore the Church bears the weight of responsibility to administer the Sacrament rightly--and one of the ways she administers the Sacrament rightly is by insisting on a shared confession of faith; and that when the Church assembles around the Table, she is Confessing her Lord and Master; and that this is indeed His Table, His body, His blood, and that here therein is the forgiveness of sins and the mighty grace of God. For the Sacraments are, by God's word and command, about the strengthening and edifying of faith--and should the Church administer the Sacrament in such a way that injures faith rather than strengthens faith, then the Church becomes an unfaithful steward of the Lord's Table.

2b. Counter Argument: The Church, indeed, does bear the responsibility of steward and servant, being entrusted by the Lord His own Table. However, the eating and drinking to one's own destruction is not merely the failure to have a correct theological understanding of the Table; but is treated by the Apostle to the Corinthians as treating the Lord's Table flippantly--as he writes that many came eating and drinking to the point of some getting drunk even before everyone had come together. The proper stewardship of the Table, then, consists not in denying the Table to brothers and sisters who may lack a correct understanding of it; but in not mishandling the Table in such a way that it dishonors the Lord's body and blood, such as by treating the Table as though it were merely a ritual of no particular significance. Or by, in our assembly, treating the Lord's Table as though it were a common table (or worse, to treat the Lord's Table worse than we would even our own common dinner table).

2c. Counter to the Counter: It is precisely because of this danger of mishandling the Table that the Church must rightly insist that all who come to the Table know what the Table is: Of Whom they come before, for they come to the Table of the Lord, and it must be regarded with the utmost reverence. For when comes into the house of the king and sit at the king's table, one is obligated to regard the king as the king and the king's table as the king's table. For the Church to fail in that kind of stewardship would bring dishonor to the Lord, and dishonor His own body and blood. And it would invite dishonor; to treat the Table flippantly. If the Church treats the Lord's Table as though it were a common table, then all who approach the Table would view the Lord's Table as though it were common, and not the Lord's. The Church therefore bears responsibility to insist that the Table be honored and revered, for what is received is not mere ordinary bread and wine; but indeed the precious and holy and true body and blood of Jesus Christ, and the forgiveness of sins.

Addendum: I feel like I could continue presenting arguments and counter arguments (and counter-counter arguments). But I think, at the end of the day the real issue is this: If the Eucharist is, indeed, the Lord's body and blood (and not merely a memorial of His body and blood), then that radically changes how the Table is to be administered, viewed, and approached.

To that end, while I appreciate arguments from both sides. I do think, ultimately, the case for Closed Communion is strongest. Not treating the Sacrament like some fancy Hollywood VIP party; the point is not to say, "You lot over there aren't good enough for our party". Instead, it's about recognizing the Sacrament as, indeed, Christ's precious Table. The Table is closed, not because others are less Christian. The Table is closed because we should insist that all who come to the Table know that it is the Table of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
32,620
16,479
Washington
✟1,186,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So you change the word "Church" to "foundation" to fit your narrative. :doh:
No, the foundation that Christ established. Matt 16:18; upon this rock I will build my congregation. The foundation, the Body of Christ has endured. What man has built upon that foundation is another matter.
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,499
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,727.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Saint Paul wrote the following words about erroneous doctrines:
1Ti 1:3-11 As I exhorted you when going to Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may command certain ones not to teach a different doctrine, (4) nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the stewardship from God which is by faith. (5) But the goal of our command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and an unhypocritical faith. (6) For some, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, (7) wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.​
(8) But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, (9) knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and godless, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, (10) for sexually immoral persons, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (11) according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.​
And here is what THE APOSTLE PETER wrote about Paul in 2 Peter 3:16 !!

#1 AS. // KAI is aN ADVERB

#2 ALSO // EN is a CONJUNTION

#3 IN // EN. is a PREPOSTION

#4 ALL. //. in. the DATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#5 EPISTLES //. EPISTOLE. in. the DATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#6 SPEAKING // LALEO. in. the PRESENT TENSE in. the ACTIVE VOICE in the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR

#7 IN // EN is a PREPOSITION

#8 THEM. // AUTOS. is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN. in. the DATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#9 OF. // PEN is a PREPOSITION

#10 THESE THINGS //. TOUTON in. the GENITIVE CASE in. the NEUTER in. the PLURAL

#11 IN. // EN PRPOSITION

#12. WHICH // HOS. is a RELATIVE PRONOUN in. the DATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#13. ARE // ESTI. in. the PRESENT TENSE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the SINGULAR

#14 SOME THINGS //. TIS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the NEUTER

#15 HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD. //. DYSNOETOS. ion. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL in. the NEUER

#16 WHICH // HOS. is a RELATIVE PRONOUN in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL in. the NEUTER

#17 THEY THAT // HO is a DEFINITE ARTICLE in. the NOMINATIVE CASE n. the PLURAL

#18 ARE UNLERNED // AMATHES. in the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL in. the NEUTER

#19 AND // KAI is a CONJUNCTION

#20. UNSTABLE // ASTEBLOO. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL

#21 WREST // STREBLOO in. the PRESENT TENSE in. the ACTIVE VOICE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the PLUAL

#22. AS. // is an ADVERB

#23. ALSO // KAI is a CONJUNCTION

#24. THE // is a DEFINITE ARTICLE is a ACCUATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#25. OTHER. // LOIPOS is ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#26 SCRIPTURES //. GRAPHE. is a ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

#27 UNTO // PROS is a PREPOSTION

# 28 THEIR // AUTO is a PERSONAL POSSISSIVE PRONOUN in. the GENITIVE CASE in the PLRAL

#29 OWN // IDIO. in. the ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR

#30 DESTUCTION //. APOLEIO. in. the ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR


#A And we see that even PETER did not understand what. Pauls GOSPEL.

#B. AND IN. ACTS 15:11 SAYS BUT we believe through the GRACE of. the LORd WE SHALL BE SAVED

as they ALSO. !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0