Adventist Beliefs on Biblical Signs of the End Days.

tall73 · Tuesday at 3:26 PM

Tall73 said:
Modeled on is not the same as "is". Your objection is a non-starter.

Capbook2 said:
Posing objection should carry counter argument that point to his interpretation.
But nothing has been done.
So, the "traditional Sabbath" stands and proven that no other meaning only the "seventh day.'

Nope, still is a non-starter. You say it refers to the traditional sabbath. The text you are pointing to doesn't say that. it says it is modeled on. And I already discussed what that meant above.

Tall73 said:
Usage is what determines meaning. None of the people using the word were lexicographers.

Capbook2 said:
So, interpreters just chose their own meaning influenced by their presumptions and preconceptions without realizing it.

No, Origin used the terms showing different usage, and was not interpreting this passage at all. And Chrysostom discussed the meaning as a Greek speaker closer to the time.

Now as to interpreters, Lexicographers are interpreters long after the fact, with only partial evidence, because we only know what we have discovered from the actual usage. But the people living in the time were speaking the language and communicating with no Lexicographers needed.

Moreover, Lexicographer is not a professions shielded from bias. But it is noteworthy that even a number of Adventist Scholars do not even agree with your position, though they might have a reason to wish to.

tall73 · Tuesday at 3:29 PM

Tall73 said:
They each sign the one they wrote, and the article was signed by the one scholar who wrote it. When it says: More than 100 distinguished scholars contributed to the work, that is the point. They contribute within their expertise.

Capbook2 said:
Is that a confirmation that a mistake was made saying only one author of TDNT?

Since that was never said by me, and rather what I said was that the articles point out which scholar contributes, you are back to one scholar writing the article.

Not that it matters, because the one scholar who wrote the article, as opposed to the various ones who contributed to various articles, still included a bunch you didn't like anyway.

tall73 · Tuesday at 3:37 PM

Capbook2 said:
My point is this upper part of what you quote, "σαββατισμός sabbatismos and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day.
The OT reference was recorded below or lower part to what you quote.

To make it clear, my point of "Sabbatismos' as "seventh day" stated in the upper part.
Your point of OT reference is recorded on the lowest part of the whole quote.

To make it clear

This rest of which Hb. speaks is related, however, neither to possession of the land nor to the Sabbath of the OT and Jewish Law. It is a purely heavenly blessing towards which the pilgrim people of God moves.

They indicate that the rest being spoken of in Hebrews is not the Sabbath, but something else.

.

Capbook2 said:
BDAG did defined what "Sabbatismos" really mean at the time it was used, it is the "traditional Sabbath"

It said modeled, not is. We can repeat this forever. But your whole point of it being a technical term indicating only the weekly Sabbath was hopeless after the usage was posted showing instances where it is not in Origin, and the understanding, which was not referring to the weekly Sabbath from Chrysostom.

Usage and context determines meaning. Convince all the Adventist scholars and then let me know and we can discuss again. Because it is usage and context the Adventist scholars who disagree with you are looking at.

Jipsah · Tuesday at 7:27 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
I wish people would focus on their own beliefs rather than always trying to tell people what others believe,

LIke all us crypto papists who embrace the Mark of the Beast?

Jipsah · Tuesday at 8:03 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
And I have already explained this multiple times, just try reading one of them that shows the same event the Second Coming of Jesus Christ separated by the 1000 years

So summer last summerI went to Denmark to spoil the grandkids for a month, then came back here and hung out for a year. I then betook myself to the lovely city of Aarhus once more at the end of last month, and have only now come back to Tennessee. Does that qualify as two trips to shores of the Kattegat, or just one? I know that SAS considers it two round trips, but if I could find a way to persuade them it was only one it would save me a substantial bit of money

SabbathBlessings said:
Show me where Jesus is limited to how many time He can come from heaven to earth.

THe limit isn't on how many times He can make the trip, but how many He can make and us still consider it to have only been one .

SabbathBlessings said:
If Jesus wishes to come for the holy and blessed that He raises from the dead and His saints meet Him in the air and they go where He goes because His house has many mansions in heaven, why would God be limited to doing this in your view?

THe strain isn't on God's ability, but on the flexibility of the English tongue. It seems to be exceeding the capacity of the language to claim that two arrivals on earth separated by a thousand years constitutes a single arrival.

Jipsah · Tuesday at 8:15 PM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, that's why I prefer to quote literal word for word Bible translations

I hope that works better than word-for-word translations of Chnese or Korean. Yikes!

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 9:50 PM

tall73 said:
The section is about the need for the gospel. Paul introduces the gospel as the power of God in 16 and 17, then explains how all need it because all have sinned.

Verse 18 states that the wrath of God is revealed against the ungodliness of men:

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (ESV)

He describes this in shocking terms throughout the rest of the chapter, showing the descent of men, turning further and further from God, and He giving them up to more sin.

Then chapter 2:1, which you were highlighting, notes that any who think they are not included in chapter 1 are included, because they do the same thing.

The section builds to 3:19-24 in which it is made plan the law stops every mouth and the whole world is held accountable to God. No one is saved by the law. It points out sin. And from 1:18-3:19 he was spelling out how people sinned.

Romans 3:19-24
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Then he explains the gospel he earlier referenced in 1:16-17, the righteousness of God, apart from law, which the Scriptures bear witness to, which is through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (ESV)

So if we are going to look at overall context, that would be the larger picture. But the point in our exchange was that Jesus is the One who God uses to judge all at the end, on that day, and to reveal their hearts.

Of course not. He could even in His incarnation:

John 2:23-25
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. (ESV)

What I am pointing out is what all the texts describe about Jesus judging at His coming.

You have not pointed out a text that shows the Adventist version of the IJ. But it is unnecessary. He reveals hearts on that day, the day of judgment, at His coming. When people bow and kneel and confess before the throne the onlooking universe will be perfectly clear on what happened.

I think I have, but maybe not in this forum. Regarding God investigates Adam and Eve, made judgement, then execute the curses and etc.

tall73 said:
Right, the Lord will examine Him--at His coming.

Again, do you mean that the Lord cannot examine us before His second coming?

tall73 said:
Right, at His coming is when the heart is revealed. The timing is given.

Again, do this mean that the Lord through the Holy Spirit cannot initiate through our conscience to reveal that we've done something wrong?
Or only at His coming?

tall73 · Tuesday at 9:52 PM

Capbook2 said:
I think I have, but maybe not in this forum. Regarding God investigates Adam and Eve, made judgement, then execute the curses and etc.

Again, do you mean that the Lord cannot examine us before His second coming?

Again, do this mean that the Lord through the Holy Spirit cannot initiate through our conscience to reveal that we've done something wrong?
Or only at His coming?

Already responded to all of this. You might read through the responses already made.

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 10:31 PM

tall73 said:
Through context, we know it is at His coming. It says so. And we see conversation in the various texts already posted about His coming where He questions, says what was done or not done, people give account, etc.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

Quoted verses, narrates the conversation with Jesus when He was still on earth, not at His second coming.

tall73 said:
And we have this text again showing judgment in person. I asked when you think this happens. It can only be after His coming, because we are standing before the throne:

Romans 14:10-13

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat

we kneel,

bow

confess

give an account

May we know, who do you believe utter the word "I" in verse 11?
May we know, except this verse in question, any other verse that Jesus state, "I" every knee shall bow to Me, every tongue shall swear?"
As to my research, it's the Father that uttered "I" in Psalms 45:23.
And TS2009 render Romans 14:11 refer the "I" to "יהוה" the Father.

As it was stated in the OT, means we can bow, kneel, confess our sins, give account to our mistakes before God.

(TS2009) Isa 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear.

(TS2009) Rom 14:11 For it has been written, “As I live, says יהוה, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to Elohim.” Isa_45:23.

Even your resources proves my point, see below I bolded the word "LORD and God."

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

tall73 · Tuesday at 10:39 PM

Capbook2 said:
Quoted verses, narrates the conversation with Jesus when He was still on earth, not at His second coming.

May we know, who do you believe utter the word "I" in verse 11?
May we know, except this verse in question, any other verse that Jesus state, "I" every knee shall bow to Me, every tongue shall swear?"
As to my research, it's the Father that uttered "I" in Psalms 45:23.
And TS2009 render Romans 14:11 refer the "I" to "יהוה" the Father.

Do you mean Isaiah 45 as quoted earlier? Already pointed out multiple times Paul's comment on the same passage in Phil. 2

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

He tells us all will bow to Jesus, and and every tongue confess He is Lord.

Capbook2 said:
As it was stated in the OT, means we can bow, kneel, confess our sins, give account to our mistakes before God.

Already addressed in the various responses. Again, you should probably read them before replying.

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 11:53 PM

tall73 said:
You ask whether we can confess Jesus today or bow before Him. Of course. But then you do not acknowledge what He says WILL happen in the future:

Romans 14:10-12
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. (ESV)

We will all stand, future indicative:
We will all give account of ourselves, future indicative.

Paul certainly confessed Jesus regularly, and bowed before the Lord, etc. But he is speaking of standing before the judgment set in the future to give account. And it will involve, confession, bowing, kneeling, etc.

May we confirm from you who do you believe "judgment seat" Christians will stand before?
As TS2009 refer to "יהוה" the Father, referenced to Isaiah 45:23.

As to your quoted verses above, notice;
1. We will stand before the judgment seat of God,
2. Every knee shall bow to God,
3. Every tongue shall confess to God,
4. Each of us give account to God.

As the judgement be before God's seat, having bowed, knelled, confessed and had given account means God had rendered the judgment.
And who do we think will execute the made judgment?
John 5:27 states that God gave authority to Jesus to execute the judgment.

(TS2009) Rom 14:11 For it has been written, “As I live, says יהוה, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to Elohim.” Isa_45:23.

(NAS95) John 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

tall73 said:
The parallel text makes clear that the appearance before that throne also involves receiving what is due:

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

Your appearance before the judgment seat is future, and will be in person.

Yes, but your proof of "conversation" nothing recorded on the above text.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 12:29 AM

tall73 said:
The first part corresponds to what we already looked at.

1 Peter 4:4-5
4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. (ESV)

They will give account, future indicative. The ones reviling the believers will give an account in the future to the One who has readiness to judge the living and the dead.

The second phrase has been interpreted several ways.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. (ESV)

Since the backdrop is persecution, some see it as those who died during that persecution, being judged according to men (in this case wrongly by their persecutors), but living to God in the Spirit.

Others see it as God judging the saints after an earthly fashion so that they might be living to God in the Spirit.

Others take it to refer to Jesus preaching to spirits in prison.

Judged and might live are in the subjunctive mood.

The persecutors giving account in the future to the one having readiness to judge the living and the dead certainly could be talking of the last judgment. But, barring some change, since they are reviling Christians, they are not professed believers, so this can be the Adventist IJ. And if you hold it to be a judgment at that time, then that could not be the IJ starting in 1844 either.

My point is to establish "judgment" to happen first, the "execution of the judgment."
As the term "ready to judge" means to me as, all data for judgement are accessible through God's foreknowledge, just waiting to execute judgment on God's fixed day. (1Pet 4:7)

tall73 said:
The judgment seat of Christ in the parallel passage is clearly at His coming, as we receive reward there.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

Yes, as "each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil," is the execution of judgement whom God the Father gave that authority to Jesus to execute judgment. (John 5:27)

tall73 said:
Incorrect. I am not opposed to an investigative judgment. I am not opposed to God presenting evidence, investigating, answering. The texts show that happens at His coming. And in temporal judgments, we see this even before, where God confronts.

Rather, I have shown that when Jesus comes He will conduct such an investigation.

Do you mean Roman 14:10-12? Through context it refer to the Father.

tall73 said:
What I have stated regarding the ADVENTIST IJ is you have presented no text showing it. Nor would it be needed, because everyone will give account, confess, kneel, etc. when standing before His throne. He will reveal what was done or not done (Matth 25). He will inquire as to what was done with talents (Matt 25). He will answer objections from those who say they cast out demons, etc. (Matt 7).

It is at the coming of Jesus that hearts are revealed.

As I've already said about verses quoted above, those conversation happened when Jesus was still on earth and not at His second coming.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 12:53 AM

tall73 said:
I went through various views on this text. But let's be clear here. Are you saying that in the time of Peter the dead were already judged? Which ones? Because it says that they may live--but not all will live.

Seems you are knowledgeable about Adventist beliefs, are you familiar with the term "closed probation?"

tall73 said:
So are you saying we immediately are judged when we die? If so that is not the Adventist IJ.
But also you haven't explained what ἵνα κριθῶσι μὲν κατὰ ἀνθρώπους σαρκὶ means.

If the "though they are judged in the flesh as men," as to your interpretation, do you believe if God do not allow anything to happen, do you think it would happen?
Don't you believe that God have the power to allow or disallow things to happen?

tall73 said:
No, this is very much at Jesus' second coming, and He points out what they did and did not do:

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

We don't need to know every detail to know the timing. This is told in a series of parables about Jesus' coming, and that we must be ready for it. And it makes it clear that when He comes suddenly it will be like this parable, which speaks of the return of the King after a long time to settle accounts:

Matthew 25:13-19
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. 14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. (ESV)

It is at His coming, and told specifically to illustrate what that coming will be like.

Certainly. I have no issue with that. As I said, I am not opposed to investigation, whether in temporal or the final judgment.

As I've said, "conversations" quoted above was when Jesus was still on earth and not at His second coming.

tall73 said:
I am stating you have presented no text showing the Adventist IJ. But there are plain texts showing investigation, giving account, questioning, telling what was done or not done, at the second coming, and it is stated that is when the secrets of hearts will be revealed. There is no need for the Adventist IJ. And you have not shown any text that pictures it.

I do quote Genesis about, investigation, judgment and then execution.

tall73 said:
And of course, the IJ is based on a misreading of the Day of Atonement type anyway, but we have a thread on the IJ, and you have already made an appearance in it, so we can discuss the type issue there.

Agree, actually I'm not so familiar with IJ as I am more interested to study the Bible, but I'll try.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 12:59 AM

tall73 said:
First, you made no response to the problem that the Daniel 7 judgment includes both professed and non-professed followers of God, which the Adventist IJ, does not .

Second, as noted, Daniel 7 shows the same scene of the Son of Man coming on the clouds in great glory, with the angels, etc. spoken of by Jesus about His coming.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

Matthew 25:31
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. (ESV)

Mark 8:38
38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (ESV)

And we do see conversation in the Matthew 25 passage, in which the Son of Man describes what they did and did not do, and they interact.

Yes, there was interaction as Jesus was with them on that time, means on earth.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 1:10 AM

tall73 said:
Nope, still is a non-starter. You say it refers to the traditional sabbath. The text you are pointing to doesn't say that. it says it is modeled on. And I already discussed what that meant above.

Denying Bible Lexicon definition always happen when one's interpretation wasn't mentioned or unsupported.
Even online query understand what "modeled after the traditional Sabbath" means.

"Modeled after the traditional Sabbath" means following a weekly pattern of complete rest, stopping regular work, and focusing on holy or spiritual matters, just as described in the biblical creation story where God rested on the seventh day.

Google Search

tall73 said:
No, Origin used the terms showing different usage, and was not interpreting this passage at all. And Chrysostom discussed the meaning as a Greek speaker closer to the time.

Now as to interpreters, Lexicographers are interpreters long after the fact, with only partial evidence, because we only know what we have discovered from the actual usage. But the people living in the time were speaking the language and communicating with no Lexicographers needed.

Moreover, Lexicographer is not a professions shielded from bias. But it is noteworthy that even a number of Adventist Scholars do not even agree with your position, though they might have a reason to wish to.

The Adventist scholars were not credentialed Bible Lexicographers, understandable.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 1:13 AM

tall73 said:
To make it clear

This rest of which Hb. speaks is related, however, neither to possession of the land nor to the Sabbath of the OT and Jewish Law. It is a purely heavenly blessing towards which the pilgrim people of God moves.

They indicate that the rest being spoken of in Hebrews is not the Sabbath, but something else.

.

It said modeled, not is. We can repeat this forever. But your whole point of it being a technical term indicating only the weekly Sabbath was hopeless after the usage was posted showing instances where it is not in Origin, and the understanding, which was not referring to the weekly Sabbath from Chrysostom.

Usage and context determines meaning. Convince all the Adventist scholars and then let me know and we can discuss again. Because it is usage and context the Adventist scholars who disagree with you are looking at.

Already addressed to, even AI and online query understand what "modeled after the traditional Sabbath" means.
Again, Adventist scholars were not credentialed Bible Lexicographers. So, it's reasonable.

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 1:17 AM

Jipsah said:
I hope that works better than word-for-word translations of Chnese or Korean. Yikes!

Yes, beneficial to those whose mother tongue the Bible was translated.

tall73 · Wednesday at 1:27 PM

Capbook2 said:
May we confirm from you who do you believe "judgment seat" Christians will stand before?
As TS2009 refer to "יהוה" the Father, referenced to Isaiah 45:23.

Why would you think the covenant name applied to only one person of the Trinity? We are baptized into the singular "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit:

Matthew 28:19

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (ESV)

Jesus uses "I Am" to refer to Himself, relating back to Exodus 3, and Isaiah 43:10 stating, "before Abrham was, I am."

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

Exo 3:14 And Elohim said to Mosheh, “I am that which I am.”a And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Yisra’ěl, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” . Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisra’ěl, ‘יהוה Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.’ TS2009

Isa 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares יהוה, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no Ěl formed, nor after Me there is none.

Isa 43:10 γένεσθέ μοι μάρτυρες, κἀγὼ μάρτυς, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, καὶ ὁ παῖς, ὃν ἐξελεξάμην, ἵνα γνῶτε καὶ πιστεύσητε καὶ συνῆτε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἔμπροσθέν μου οὐκ ἐγένετο ἄλλος θεὸς καὶ μετ᾿ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἔσται·

Peter alludes to Isaiah 8:12-13, and refers to setting apart Christ, in the ESV:

Isaiah 8:12 -13

12 “Do not say, ‘A conspiracy,’ concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.

13 “יהוה of hosts, Him you shall set apart. Let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. TS2009

1 Peter 3:14-15

14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, (ESV)

The ESV follows the critical eclectic text (as represented by the SBL/UBS/NA)

1 Peter 3:14-15

14 ἀλλ’ εἰ καὶ πάσχοιτε διὰ δικαιοσύνην, μακάριοι. τὸν δὲ φόβον αὐτῶν μὴ φοβηθῆτε μηδὲ ταραχθῆτε, 15 κύριον δὲ τὸν Χριστὸν ἁγιάσατε ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, ἕτοιμοι ἀεὶ πρὸς ἀπολογίαν παντὶ τῷ αἰτοῦντι ὑμᾶς λόγον περὶ τῆς ἐν ὑμῖν ἐλπίδος (SBL NT)

The TS2009 of 1 Peter 3:14 follows the Majority (and TR) reading:

1Peter 3:14

14 But even if you suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed.a “And do not fear their threats, neither be troubled.

15 But set apart יהוה Elohim in your hearts, and always be ready to give an answer to everyone asking you a reason concerning the expectation that is in you, with meekness and fear, TS2009

1 Peter 3:14-15

14 Ἀλλ᾽ εἰ καὶ πάσχοιτε διὰ δικαιοσύνην, μακάριοι· τὸν δὲ φόβον αὐτῶν μὴ φοβηθῆτε, μηδὲ ταραχθῆτε·

15 κύριον δὲ τὸν θεὸν ἁγιάσατε ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν· ἕτοιμοι δὲ ἀεὶ πρὸς ἀπολογίαν παντὶ τῷ αἰτοῦντι ὑμᾶς λόγον περὶ τῆς ἐν ὑμῖν ἐλπίδος, μετὰ πρᾳΰτητος καὶ φόβου· (Greek NT: Byzantine Greek Unparsed Text)

And TR:

1 Peter 3:14-15

14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (NKJV)

Are you going to be consistent in your preference for the eclectic text?

Capbook2 said:
As to your quoted verses above, notice;
1. We will stand before the judgment seat of God,
2. Every knee shall bow to God,
3. Every tongue shall confess to God,
4. Each of us give account to God.

As the judgement be before God's seat, having bowed, knelled, confessed and had given account means God had rendered the judgment.
And who do we think will execute the made judgment?

I already posted this, but here it is again:

A reference to Isaiah 45:23

23 By myself I have sworn;

from my mouth has gone out in righteousness

a word that shall not return:

To me every knee shall bow,

every tongue shall swear allegiance.’ (ESV)

And the same author in Philippians, as was pointed out, applies this to Christ directly, and notes it is to the glory of the Father that it is applied to Christ:

Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

And in the same book of Romans he shows the judgment on that day regarding the secrets of men is by God, THROUGH Christ Jesus (dia with the genitive).

Romans 2:15-16

15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Capbook2 said:
John 5:27 states that God gave authority to Jesus to execute the judgment.

And also in John 5:

John 5:22-23

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. (ESV)

And likewise:

Acts 10:42 (NKJV)

42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.

2 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)

herefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

Acts 17:31 (NKJV) 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

So if God judges through Christ, what is the issue? As I mentioned when you started discussion of the variant, either way the Son is judging by the ordaining of the Father.

And meanwhile you keep trying to to distinguish between judging and executing judgment. It all is done by Jesus, by the ordaining of the Father.

And we see from the texts when it happens. At His coming, before His throne.

2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

But you want one to be earlier, and one only the carrying out of the sentence, etc. When they all take place before the judgment seat, and you are not there yet, and won't be until Jesus returns.

tall73 · Wednesday at 1:46 PM

Capbook2 said:
My point is to establish "judgment" to happen first, the "execution of the judgment."

They are all done by Jesus on the day appointed, by God's ordaining

Acts 17:31 (NKJV) 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Capbook2 said:
As the term "ready to judge" means to me as, all data for judgement are accessible through God's foreknowledge, just waiting to execute judgment on God's fixed day. (1Pet 4:7)

God knows all things, knows the end from the beginning, and knows His Sheep.

The judgment on the other hand is not just what God knows but it is the appearance before the throne. And we are told Jesus will be the one judging, on the day, and we are told it will be at His coming:

Acts 17:31 (NKJV) 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Matthew 25:31-32

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Romans 2:16

16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Capbook2 said:
As I've already said about verses quoted above, those conversation happened when Jesus was still on earth and not at His second coming.

It is hard to take you seriously when you say this.

.Jesus told the parable of the talents while on earth, yes. But he told it in a string of parables about His coming, and it describes what will be with the master going away a long time, coming back, and settling accounts, including interaction.

Matthew 25:13-30

13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

The day and the hour of what? Of His coming that He is foretelling.

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

And likewise with these words, which are not even a parable:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

He is describing FUTURE interaction, future discussions about what was done and not done, and then some go to eternal punishment and some to eternal life.

So are you saying that already happened the first time He came, people going to eternal punishment or life? That wouldn't be an SDA response.

tall73 · Wednesday at 1:49 PM

tall73 said:

Tall73 said:
And of course, the IJ is based on a misreading of the Day of Atonement type anyway, but we have a thread on the IJ, and you have already made an appearance in it, so we can discuss the type issue there.

Capbook2 said:
Agree, actually I'm not so familiar with IJ as I am more interested to study the Bible, but I'll try.

Good way to put it. If you are studying the Bible, it is no wonder you are not familiar with the Adventist IJ. You won't find it in there.

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