Commandments of man or the commandments of God

JSRG said:

I likely speak for many when I say...

AI;dr.

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That post of mine included very specific statement of what it not in the NT text. Not vague statements.

Pick any specific detail and do your own Bible search. Let us know what you find.

The Liturgist said:

And I would be one of those people, but unfortunately my attempts to persuade our interlocutors

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it is your AI post that resulted in the AI responses.

Apparently you do not favor the more focused AI exchanges.

Choose as you wish. I am sticking with the details

BobRyan said:

it is your AI post that resulted in the AI responses.

Apparently you do not favor the more focused AI exchanges.

Choose as you wish. I am sticking with the details

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Strawman, I said I do not favor AI exchanges using vague or undefined terms.

BobRyan said:

added statement from ChatGpt

ChatGpt

"The New Testament does not merely omit an explicit Sunday command; it positively continues to describe recurring Sabbath activity using the traditional meaning of "Sabbath." Therefore, the textual evidence is not neutral. It weighs more naturally in favor of continuity with the seventh-day Sabbath than it does toward an explicitly instituted weekly Sunday replacement"

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The questions you asked chatGPT are not relevant but are fallacious according to the same categories 5.6 Sol in Extended mode identified previously, for the simple reason that I have never claimed that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.

You keep falsely accusing me of having said that, when I have, on the contrary, on numerous occasions argued that the Sabbath remains on the Seventh Day and also provided evidence to the extent that the Roman Church historically took this view (their use of Sabato to refer to the Seventh Day in their missal) and that the Eastern Orthodox still do take this view.

BobRyan said:

ChatGpt

"The New Testament does not merely omit an explicit Sunday command; it positively continues to describe recurring Sabbath activity using the traditional meaning of "Sabbath." Therefore, the textual evidence is not neutral. It weighs more naturally in favor of continuity with the seventh-day Sabbath than it does toward an explicitly instituted weekly Sunday replacement"

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Another strawman - I have never claimed there is an explicit Sunday command in the New Testament.

I’m disappointed that rather than modifying your argument to correct the logical fallacies that chatGPT 5.6 Sol Extended identified with your argument, you simply asked it irrelevant questions about positions I have never advocated but have had to repeatedly clarify to you that I expressly reject.

The Liturgist said:

Strawman, I said I do not favor AI exchanges using vague or undefined terms.

The questions you asked chatGPT are not relevant

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1. MY questions are exactly to the point, which is why you find them inconvenient
2. The bolded questions you see within the quote block of ChatGPT's response is not ME asking questions, it is ChatGpt framing context for each section of its response. Attention to detail here would be helpful

The Liturgist said:

but are fallacious

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Name calling is not actual logic. Try again

The Liturgist said:

I have never claimed that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.

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I am fine with you never doing that.

But "you" are not "everyone on planet earth"
I address all the readers of this thread even when you find it inconvieniet

The Liturgist said:

You keep falsely accusing me of having said that

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When I quote you, I show it in the box as we can all see above. That is me claiming you said that.
This just is not that hard.

The Liturgist said:

, when I have, on the contrary, on numerous occasions argued that the Sabbath remains on the Seventh Day

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Which is the part where we both agree.

I would think this would cause you to complain less about AI statements that tend to agree with that position

The Liturgist said:

Another strawman - I have never claimed there is an explicit Sunday command in the New Testament.

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And yet many people do assume that very thing. So I have to address it.

The Liturgist said:

I’m disappointed that rather than modifying your argument to correct the logical fallacies that chatGPT 5.6 Sol Extended identified

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That is Gpt being quoted by me. I am not arguing with those GPT quotes I posted

BobRyan said:

Name calling is not actual logic.

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You were not called any names - the AI identified a series of logical fallacies in your argument with which I occurred. This by the way is a red herring fallacy.

BobRyan said:

I am fine with you never doing that.

But "you" are not "everyone on planet earth"
I address all the readers of this thread even when you find it inconvieniet

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Then you should clarify that fact and not address such replies to me.

BobRyan said:

That is Gpt being quoted by me. I am not arguing with those GPT quotes I posted

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The issue is your earlier remark contained numerous logical fallacies, which were I would add avoidable.

It is important we avoid such fallacies in order to preserve critical thinking, and in honor of Christ our God being the Logos.

timothyu said:

The Lord’s day is not the Sabbath

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It is in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13 and even the Catholic Doctrine "The Faith Explained" points this out from scripture

timothyu said:

and no one in the beginning took the Lord’s Day as a sabbath

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The Lord's day IS the Sabbath in the Bible. (as even our Catholic friends affirm in their document "The Faith Explained". It is the only day identified as a day of weekly worship in all of the Bible

If we look in the NT text itself seeking to find worship services held each week... it is the Sabbath

(And of course ChatGPT says it this way)

ChatGPT

Begin quote

"If we limit the focus of your inquiry to the evidence within the New Testament itself, and you assume that Christians gathered for worship on a recurring weekly basis, the picture is more nuanced than either side of the debate sometimes presents.

What is explicitly described?​

The New Testament repeatedly identifies the seventh-day Sabbath as the recurring weekly day associated with assembly and teaching.

Examples include:

• Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42–44 – Paul preaches on the Sabbath, and the next Sabbath nearly the whole city gathers to hear the word.
• Acts of the Apostles 16:13 – Paul seeks a place of prayer on the Sabbath.
• Acts of the Apostles 17:2 – "As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them."
• Acts of the Apostles 18:4 – Paul reasons every Sabbath, persuading Jews and Greeks.

These are the clearest recurring weekly patterns described in the narrative.
================================================= end quote

The Liturgist said:

'The questions you asked chatGPT are not relevant but are fallacious

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more focus on details please

Q: What is the weekly day of worship that is mentioned in the NT?

ChatGPT
======================== begin quote
If you limit the inquiry to the evidence within the New Testament itself, and you assume that Christians gathered for worship on a recurring weekly basis, the picture is more nuanced than either side of the debate sometimes presents.

What is explicitly described?​

The New Testament repeatedly identifies the seventh-day Sabbath as the recurring weekly day associated with assembly and teaching.
Examples include:

• Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42–44 – Paul preaches on the Sabbath, and the next Sabbath nearly the whole city gathers to hear the word.
• Acts of the Apostles 16:13 – Paul seeks a place of prayer on the Sabbath.
• Acts of the Apostles 17:2 – "As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them."
• Acts of the Apostles 18:4 – Paul reasons every Sabbath, persuading Jews and Greeks.

These are the clearest recurring weekly patterns described in the narrative.

end quote


This is just basic fact finding. No amount of dust in air , hand waiving, fallacy, irrelevant" changes these results for the readers.

The Liturgist said:

Another strawman - I have never claimed there is an explicit Sunday command in the New Testament.

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So do you also deny a Christian practice/ example in the NT for weekly Sunday observance?? I would have thought you would be clear on that point and object to ChatGpt saying that no such practice is found in the NT text itself.

It is possible that you are fine with such an outcome of course, I certainly am.

The Liturgist said:

you simply asked it irrelevant questions

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more focus please

NOTE: Section headers in these ChatGPT quote blocks, in large bolded letters, is NOT a case of ME ASKING ChatGpt questions. Rather it is ChapGpt posing questions in the text of its own response to frame context for its response sections ... this is a verbatim quote of it, not of me. (For the benefit of anyone wishing to frame my post as quoting someone posting here, or accusing someone posting here.... just stating the basics)

================= ChaGpt quote begins
If you limit the inquiry to the evidence within the New Testament itself, and you assume that Christians gathered for worship on a recurring weekly basis, the picture is more nuanced than either side of the debate sometimes presents.

What is explicitly described?​

The New Testament repeatedly identifies the seventh-day Sabbath as the recurring weekly day associated with assembly and teaching.

Examples include:

• Acts of the Apostles 13:14, 42–44 – Paul preaches on the Sabbath, and the next Sabbath nearly the whole city gathers to hear the word.
• Acts of the Apostles 16:13 – Paul seeks a place of prayer on the Sabbath.
• Acts of the Apostles 17:2 – "As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them."
• Acts of the Apostles 18:4 – Paul reasons every Sabbath, persuading Jews and Greeks.

These are the clearest recurring weekly patterns described in the narrative.

What about the first day of the week?​

The first day appears in several important passages, but they are fewer and differ in purpose.

• Acts of the Apostles 20:7 describes believers gathered on the first day of the week when Paul, who was departing the next day, spoke until midnight. This is a narrative account of one meeting.
• book 16:2 instructs believers to set aside money on the first day of every week so that collections would be ready when Paul arrived. The passage does not explicitly describe a corporate worship service.
• All four Gospels note that Jesus rose on the first day of the week, establishing its significance in the resurrection narratives.

Does the New Testament ever say the Sabbath was changed?​

There is no verse that explicitly states:

• the seventh-day Sabbath has been moved to the first day,
• the first day replaces the Sabbath,
• Christians are commanded to observe Sunday as the new weekly holy day.

Those conclusions, where held, are drawn from broader theological reasoning rather than from an explicit statement.

What does this mean if we only consider the textual evidence?​

If you ask only:

"What recurring weekly day of worship do we actually see identified in the text?"

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the answer is that the seventh-day Sabbath is the only weekly day consistently depicted as the regular day for gathering and teaching.

The first day of the week certainly appears in the New Testament:

• as the day of Jesus' resurrection,
• in at least one recorded Christian gathering,
• and in an instruction about setting aside funds.

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===========Begin quote:
So, if the standard is "What weekly day is explicitly and consistently presented in the New Testament itself?", the textual evidence most directly points to the seventh-day Sabbath. If the standard is "What day became the principal day of Christian worship according to later historical development?", that is a separate historical question that extends beyond the New Testament text.

timothyu said:

Different Lord’s day. They saw Sunday as the day He arose, overcame death. Still wasn’t a sabbath.

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But they never actually say "Sunday is the Lord's day" or "Week day one is the Lord's day"

And in 1Cor 11:26 when Paul specifically identifies the exact event being commemorated by their Lord's Table, Communion Services... it says "you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes". Paul does not say the Lord's table, communion service" is proclaiming the resurrection on the day Christ arose from the dead.

So I am not objecting to someone "having that as their custom" ... I am just pointing out that the text is not trying to make a case for a Sunday worship service in memorial of the resurrection the way the actual Bible makes the case for a weekly day of worship in memorial of the creation of the World

when comparing your few first day texts to the many Sabbath texts, not one first day text associated with a worship service says it is "each week" or "Every Week" or 'Every week day one". By contrast a number of Sabbath texts use that format , so absent from the Sunday texts.

======================ChatGpt reply... begin quote

if we stay strictly within the narrative of the text, that's a fair observation.
In Acts of the Apostles 13:42–44, the sequence is:

• Paul preaches in the synagogue on the Sabbath.
• The Gentiles ask to hear these things again.
• The narrative does not say, "Come tomorrow," or "Meet on the first day of the week."
• Instead, it says, "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord."

From the text alone, Luke presents the next scheduled opportunity for this public proclamation as the next Sabbath.

This passage is one of the stronger pieces of textual evidence cited by those who argue that the New Testament itself portrays the Sabbath as the recurring weekly day for assembly. If Luke intended to communicate that the apostles had already established the first day of the week as the regular Christian gathering day, this passage does not say so. Instead, the narrative naturally moves from one Sabbath gathering to the next.
====== END quote

====================================
If the question is simply, "What does Acts 13 itself say?", then the answer is straightforward: when the Gentiles requested to hear more, the next recorded public meeting for hearing the gospel was the next Sabbath, not the following day or the first day of the week. That is the explicit chronology Luke records.

=============== end quote

Imagine if we had even ONE example of

Paul preached "Every week day one" every Sunday
We meet "every Sunday"
We now call each Sunday, the Lord's day

Gentiles ask for more gospel preaching on Saturday/Sabbath and were invited the weekly Sunday service

Nothing like that in all of scripture

The Acts references cited seem to refer to Paul participating in Jewish services, or aren't weekly, or both. 1 Cor 16:2 seems the closest to a weekly activity (on Sunday), but there are too many ambiguites: Is it addressed to individuals or the church? It doesn't even refer to a meeting. It could be people putting aside money weekly, which would be gathered when Paul came.

I'm afraid we're trying to get the Bible to answer questions that it doesn't really answer, so we resort to reading tea leaves.

To me the question isn't so much which day as whether there's an expectation that everyone goes to a weekly meeting at all, except that Jewish Christians seem to have continued attending Jewish worship.

hedrick said:

The Acts references cited seem to refer to Paul participating in Jewish services, or aren't weekly, or both. 1 Cor 16:2 seems the closest to a weekly activity (on Sunday),

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Act 18:4 "Every Sabbath" is weekly
Acts 13 meeting on Sabbath and then again "the next Sabbath" in the context of a synoggue where these meetings are indeed weekly
Same is true In Acts 17 "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath"

The text is clear it is both gentiles and Jews at these weekly meetings.

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

In Mark 2:27 Christ said 'the Sabbath was made for mankind"

The Westminster Confession of Faith, the Catholic "dies Domini" and "Faith Explained" all affirm the same point regarding the origin and all-mankind scope for the Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture. So also 'Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

A lot of across the board agreement on the origin, purpose and scope for the Bible Sabbath applicable to all mankind starting in the OT

More fun with ChatGPT
begin:
=========================================

As a piece of historical evidence, Acts 13:42–44 fits the category of an incidental reference quite well. Whether it proves there was no established Sunday practice is a stronger claim than the passage alone can bear, but it is certainly relevant evidence.

Here's why.

Luke's purpose in Acts 13 is to recount Paul's sermon in Pisidian Antioch, not to explain Christian worship practices. The reference to the next meeting arises naturally from the story:

1. Paul preaches on the Sabbath.
2. The Gentiles ask to hear more.
3. Luke reports, "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered."

The timing of the follow-up meeting is not the point of the narrative; it is simply assumed as the obvious next occasion. That is exactly the kind of incidental detail historians often find valuable.

If there had already been an established weekly Christian assembly on the first day of the week in that community, one might reasonably expect Luke's narrative to read differently, for example:

• "They gathered with the disciples on the first day of the week."
• "They met again the following day."
• "They assembled on the Lord's Day."

Instead, Luke moves directly from one Sabbath to the next without explanation, as though that required no comment.
That said, from a historical standpoint, it is important to distinguish between positive evidence and proof of absence.

Acts 13 provides:

• Strong positive evidence that the next public gathering for hearing the gospel occurred on the next Sabbath.
• Incidental evidence that Luke assumes this is the natural weekly occasion for such a gathering.

It does not, by itself, logically prove that there were no other meetings during the week or that no believers met on Sunday. Silence about other meetings is not the same as an explicit denial that they occurred.

However, when Acts 13 is read alongside the broader pattern in Acts—

• "the next Sabbath" (13:44),
• "every Sabbath" (15:21; 18:4),
• "three Sabbaths" (17:2),
• "as was his custom" (17:2),

—the cumulative incidental evidence becomes more substantial. Luke repeatedly describes Sabbath gatherings as the recurring weekly rhythm, while he never similarly describes a recurring first-day gathering.

So, if the historical question is:

"As of Acts 13, what recurring weekly gathering does Luke's narrative naturally assume?"

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the answer, based on the text itself, is the Sabbath.

If the stronger question is:

"Does Acts 13 prove there was no established Sunday service anywhere?"

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Acts 13 provides positive incidental evidence for Sabbath as the recurring weekly gathering, and it contains no incidental or explicit evidence that an established weekly Sunday service had replaced it at that point in Luke's narrative. The strength of the case comes from the cumulative pattern across Acts

===================== END QUOTE

BobRyan said:

Act 18:4 "Every Sabbath" is weekly
Acts 13 meeting on Sabbath and then again "the next Sabbath" in the context of a synoggue where these meetings are indeed weekly
Same is true In Acts 17 "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath"

The text is clear it is both gentiles and Jews at these weekly meetings.

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

In Mark 2:27 Christ said 'the Sabbath was made for mankind"

The Westminster Confession of Faith, the Catholic "dies Domini" and "Faith Explained" all affirm the same point regarding the origin and all-mankind scope for the Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture. So also 'Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

A lot of across the board agreement on the origin, purpose and scope for the Bible Sabbath applicable to all mankind starting in the OT

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Act 18:4 is Paul showing up to Jewish services to spread the Gospel.
Act 17 is the same, synagogue of the Jews

This thread is to discuss the commandments of man versus the commandments of God.

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Definitely the commandments of God. The ones in effect today.

For example, we can harvest the very edges of our field today. Our society in the USA is not set up for poor people to go harvest their own food. Leviticus 19:9

Leaf473 said:

For example, we can harvest the very edges of our field today. Our society in the USA is not set up for poor people to go harvest their own food.

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Whose fault would that be?

timothyu said:

Whose fault would that be?

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I don't think it's the fault of any particular person or group of people.

Technology and the transportation system for distributing food. A poor person in Phoenix Arizona wouldn't travel to Kansas to harvest some wheat.

Big picture, it's not good to try to follow commandments from the Old Testament to the letter. But there is often lots of great wisdom contained in them!