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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Three elements of faith. Tribal, convinced, growing

jacks

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History is very clear that each wave of immigrants did not come for the purpose of altering America. They came for the purpose of making a new life for themselves. They came knowing they would face hardship. But they were leaving a worse hardship. And every single time they caused a reaction of fear and disgust amid the citizens of that time. And only decades later, looking back, was it realized they had, on balance, made our country better. It had nothing to do with racial or ethnic or religious identity.
Would this apply to the Native Americans too? The early settlers turned out to both immigrants and invaders. Some welcomed the Europeans with open arms, however the ones we venerate are those that fought the settlers. Or are you just speaking of people that came to America after the 1800's?
 
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stevevw

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I get the unfortunate impression from you that if someone holds liberal or progressive values they do so because they seek selfish pleasure and disdain morality. And worse, they 'hate' America. To the extent that you subscribe to that, you are wrong. I, for one, subscribe to a different culture than you. Doesn't make me better than you. But I remain a Christian and a patriot none the less.
My main point is more about division and unity. How two opposing beliefs cannot be held at the same time within the same society. This is not just true for Christianity but socially and culturally. More about the world regardless of politics as opposed to Christ and Gods kingdom.

In that sense we are all progressives and liberals as our fallen nature is inclined to indulge and seek the immediate rewards. Sin is sin and it takes all sorts. In some ways I think at least a liberal who sins is doing it upfront. Whereas others may hide their sin. As we have seen. I think the only measure is Christ and not purselves or this world.
 
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timothyu

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It matters not, left or right, as both have their foundations in ‘self’. The Adversary and the elites that it works through like to see the masses squabbling for two reasons. It not only draws attention away from themselves and how they control, but more importantly, it keeps most from realizing that true division is between the Kingdom and this world we have made in the adversarial image of self rather than servitude. It keeps the wheels of ‘self’ turning and keeps the Adversary employed.
 
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com7fy8

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There is the attitude "that if someone holds liberal or progressive values they do so because they seek selfish pleasure and disdain morality. And worse, they 'hate' America."

But, first, I would say I do well to let each person to speak for oneself . . . not to let a few activists on TV determine how I see all the people of a certain group.

We have activists who make it seem like all Democrats are the same way.


And there seem to be Christian activists who are promoting that "America" has been Christian. Well . . . even if there is mention of God and even of Jesus, by certain people in earlier history . . . they did not speak for how genuinely all people were Christian or not.

And we see how not everyone stayed clear of the kidnapping and killing of Africans in order to have slaves in "America". Quite a few Bible claiming people were into that, in a large part of the country. And there has been child labor, plus having a number of American citizens working and dying in coal mines, and killing Mexicans in order to force them to give up their *sovereign* lands.

Coveting what is someone else's is not Christian. Also, this was done to indigenous people; their land was coveted and taken by bloodshed, and the Christianity claiming government did not effectively stop or correct that. Sovereign indigenous peoples were not treated as created equal and in the image of God.

And such atrocities were never effectively dealt with, by the legal system of the United States.

So . . . may be some number of people wanted to use the Christian **label** and **culture** so they could have what would work for their own selves > individuals do this, even now. But it does not seem their culture included loving indigenous people as themselves and therefore seeking their good as they did for their own selves. And at the time of the Revolution, it seems there was not loving the British as themselves, or the Tories.

Democracy had a way of not prevailing, in the disagreement between Loyalists/Tories and Patriots. Both had votes, for handling things in a civil manner . . . I think . . . but they got into killing each other . . . in any case, not how we are to function as Christians.

Therefore, perhaps some amount of "Christian" things were held-to only as much as that suited the purposes of the ones making Christian claims.

Well, then > now we can labor for what is genuinely Christian, that is always with hope as much for others as for our own selves.
 
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