Why are there even denominations to begin with?

jmldn2 · Friday at 4:12 PM

jas3 said:
The Gospel is more than just John 3:16.

The Gospel is exactly what I posted. Living the Gospel is the rest of the story!!!!!

jmldn2 · Friday at 4:17 PM

The Liturgist said:
As long as you understand that Christ’s sacrifice was voluntary and that Christ is God incarnate, that is to say, by being conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, that He put on our humanity while remaining fully God, and was fully God and fully man within out change, confusion, separation or division) the person of the Son and Word, coeternal and coequal with the unoriginate father (John 1:1-18), you just have correctly described the basic belief of all Nicene denominations including the Roman Catholic Church.

However because some people deny the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Crucifixion (Docetists were an ancient and vast heresy the members of whom denied Christ had physical flesh at all, whereas Muslims believe that Judas was made to take on the appearance of Christ and was crucified in his place as punishment for his treachery, and also deny that Christ is the Christ, the Messiah, which is obviously a problem, but their beliefs are close enough to Christianity so that the early church classified Islam as an heretical cult rather than a different religion such as Zoroastrianism, which, incidentally, has enough parallels with Judaism that one suspects Zoroaster may have been a failed prophet, for instance if Jonah had compromised his faith with that of the Ninevites) or teach that we can be saved on our own merit, we have the Nicene Creed in its Constantinopolitan format, which ChristianForums provides on our forum’s statement of faith complete with Scripture citations. I shall post it here so you can study it - this is the primary Christian creed and has been since shortly after the Council of Constantinople concluded in 381 AD:

The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Of course the Gospel reflects God came to earth in the form of a human born of a virgin! God's Son, Jesus Christ, the One whom saved us all from living in eternity of hell. He was our reconciliation to our God Almighty if we accept Him, confess Him with our mouths and believe in Him with our souls.

The Liturgist · Friday at 8:36 PM

jmldn2 said:
Of course the Gospel reflects God came to earth in the form of a human born of a virgin! God's Son, Jesus Christ, the One whom saved us all from living in eternity of hell. He was our reconciliation to our God Almighty if we accept Him, confess Him with our mouths and believe in Him with our souls.

Good, forgive me, since you didn’t mention Christ’s deity in your post it was not immediately clear if you believed in that point but I am relieved to note that you do.

jmldn2 said:
The Gospel is exactly what I posted. Living the Gospel is the rest of the story!!!!!

I think that was actually the point of @jas3 in that the Gospel provides guidance on how to non-legalistically live it, for example, the insitution of the Lord’s Supper, the Great Commission, the Sermon on the Mount and other important things which exist outside individual salvation.

Also, in John, two important aspects of God’s desire for us are mentioned: that we become one even as Christ and the Father are one, and that we become perfect even as God the Father is perfect. This goes beyond merely avoiding the penalty for our sin and into the realm of God’s longer range eschatological intentions for humanity. We are not meant to sit upon clouds and luxuriate in a worldly paradise for an interminable period as Islam suggests, but are rather to share in eternal life, becoming perfected by God’s infinite grace should we choose to accept that grace.

MarkRohfrietsch · Saturday at 10:09 AM

jmldn2 said:
The Gospel is exactly what I posted. Living the Gospel is the rest of the story!!!!!

If I read this correctly, you are stating that we are justified and sanctified by "our" living the Gospel? If that is what you are saying you are wrong. We can do nothing to save ourselves; we can not live up to the standards set forth by God. His expectations can not be fulfilled by us. Here is where the real Gospel comes in, it is Christ alone who has done this work which we could never do, for us. No matter how we live, we can only fail on our own.

MarkRohfrietsch · Saturday at 10:14 AM

jmldn2 said:
Of course the Gospel reflects God came to earth in the form of a human born of a virgin! God's Son, Jesus Christ, the One whom saved us all from living in eternity of hell. He was our reconciliation to our God Almighty if we accept Him, confess Him with our mouths and believe in Him with our souls.

We can not do this on our own either, it is only through the Holy Spirit and the Word that we can come to repentence.

jmldn2 · Saturday at 10:57 AM

MarkRohfrietsch said:
We can not do this on our own either, it is only through the Holy Spirit and the Word that we can come to repentence.

Amen. We Christians can do nothing, even living the Gospel life, without the power of the Holy Spirit within us.

jmldn2 · Saturday at 10:59 AM

MarkRohfrietsch said:
If I read this correctly, you are stating that we are justified and sanctified by "our" living the Gospel? If that is what you are saying you are wrong. We can do nothing to save ourselves; we can not live up to the standards set forth by God. His expectations can not be fulfilled by us. Here is where the real Gospel comes in, it is Christ alone who has done this work which we could never do, for us. No matter how we live, we can only fail on our own.

NO that is not what I am saying. We are saved and sanctified by the Blood of Christ!!! We can live out the Gospel in our lives only by and through the power of the Holy Spirit to whom we yield ourselves to.

fhansen · Saturday at 2:40 PM

MarkRohfrietsch said:
If I read this correctly, you are stating that we are justified and sanctified by "our" living the Gospel? If that is what you are saying you are wrong. We can do nothing to save ourselves; we can not live up to the standards set forth by God. His expectations can not be fulfilled by us. Here is where the real Gospel comes in, it is Christ alone who has done this work which we could never do, for us. No matter how we live, we can only fail on our own.

jmldn2 said:
NO that is not what I am saying. We are saved and sanctified by the Blood of Christ!!! We can live out the Gospel in our lives only by and through the power of the Holy Spirit to whom we yield ourselves to.

And yet..it's very important for us to know that the one thing we can do is to refuse God's overtures, His grace; we can say "no" at any point. He desires our "yes", and our continous "yes", but the purpose of grace is not to compel it, but to enable it. We have no means of salvation apart from grace, apart from Him, but we can choose to remain apart from Him nonetheless. Living the life of the Spirit, OTOH, will defintely show itself in the way we live our lives.

jas3 · Saturday at 8:34 PM

jmldn2 said:
The Gospel is exactly what I posted. Living the Gospel is the rest of the story!!!!!

If that's what you think, I can see why you'd be confused about denominations. All I can say is, even though I think they were wrong in very fundamental ways, the Protestant Reformers weren't stupid, and it's a mistake to act like their doctrinal disputes are beneath you just because you prefer one verse in the Gospel of St. John to all the others.

reddogs · 2026-07-27T12:43:36-0500

The Liturgist said:
The result would be precisely like what the Roman church was in the Second century. Really, the Roman church did not change in any noticeable way until the mid fifth century, and then only very slightly. Rome was the most conservative and traditional of all ancient Patriarchates and did not experience an heretical bishop until the Monophysite heresy, which was supported by Pope Honorius I, who is interesting in that his anathematization by the Third Council of Constantinople (a primarily Eastern Orthodox council with a few Western Christians in attendance) is accepted by the Roman Catholic Church to this day.

This interesting fact had the predictable insalubrious outcome of Renaissance-era supposed grimoires being psuedepigraphically attributed to him, since naturally the idea of an anathematized Pope immediately drove people to imagine him as some kind of Dark Lord of the Occult as opposed to being a pious man who made the mistake of endorsing a severe Christological error and not engaging in enough other noteworthy conduct so as to create an argument for not anathematizing him as was the case with St. Gregory of Nyssa (who endorsed what amounted to a kind of Universalism, apokatastasis, but was sufficiently well loved along with his brother St. Basil the Great that when the Second Council of Constantinople anathematized, or rather approved the document written by Justinian that anathematized Origen for apokatastasis, which was itself very controversial, no one was eager to add his name to the list).

By the way, the entire idea that the Roman church had originated some kind of gross doctrinal error between the first and second centuries is disproven if one simply reads the historical documentation of that era, which is why no serious academics endorse that view regardless of denominational affiliation.

Indeed you can actually use that as a lithmus test for whether or not you are dealing with a qualified academic, that, and also if they say things about the Council of Nicaea which are manifestly false such as the claims Dan Brown repeats in his sensationalist airport paperback-grade thriller The Da Vinci Code.

Actually I would say as a general principal that most airport paperbacks should not be consulted as historical references pertaining to ecclesiastical history; there is simply too much material to fit into one volume.

I thought you said you were with the church that split from Rome in 1054 in the Great Schism.

fhansen · 2026-07-27T13:52:50-0500

reddogs said:
I thought you said you were with the church that split from Rome in 1054 in the Great Schism.

If I may, @The Liturgist takes the objective and scholarly approach, accepting truth wherever it's to be found and rejecting pseudo-knowledge or pop-mythology otherwise. He won't agree with all Catholic teachings in any case but definitely recognizes those similarities between them and the other ancient churches.

reddogs · 2026-07-27T14:19:01-0500

fhansen said:
If I may, @The Liturgist takes the objective and scholarly approach, accepting truth wherever it's to be found and rejecting pseudo-knowledge or pop-mythology otherwise. He won't agree with all Catholic teachings in any case but definitely recognizes those similarities between them and the other ancient churches.

But why defend doctrines that has drifted into what are clearly philosophies of Greek and Roman traditions to say nothing of error would be my question.

The Liturgist · 2026-07-27T14:25:47-0500

reddogs said:
I thought you said you were with the church that split from Rome in 1054 in the Great Schism.

I did say that and it is the case. My church severed relations with Rome around 480 years before the churches that Adventists separated from, namely, the Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anbaptists etc. Had the Roman church adopted the views that it adopted in the 9th - 11th centuries in the 1st or 2nd century we would have severed communion with it then, but as it happens that was not the case.

The Liturgist · 2026-07-27T14:31:26-0500

reddogs said:
But why defend doctrines that has drifted into what are clearly philosophies of Greek and Roman traditions to say nothing of error would be my question.

I have defended no such doctrines - I have expressly opposed all doctrines that are related to Pagan Hellenic philosophy: Docetism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Apollinarianism, Macedonianism, etc, and I addressed Monothelitism specifically in the preceding post with the incident involving Pope Honorius I, who was anathematized by the Orthodox and by the Church of Rome despite having been a Pope for promoting Monothelitism. Did you not notice that part?

My church also doesn’t have any seminaries, churches or institutions named after those who taught such doctrines, thus for example there is no “Arius Theological Seminary” in the Orthodox Church (or in the Roman Catholic Church for that matter).

reddogs · 2026-07-27T15:33:37-0500

The Liturgist said:
I have defended no such doctrines - I have expressly opposed all doctrines that are related to Pagan Hellenic philosophy: Docetism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Apollinarianism, Macedonianism, etc, and I addressed Monothelitism specifically in the preceding post with the incident involving Pope Honorius I, who was anathematized by the Orthodox and by the Church of Rome despite having been a Pope for promoting Monothelitism. Did you not notice that part?

My church also doesn’t have any seminaries, churches or institutions named after those who taught such doctrines, thus for example there is no “Arius Theological Seminary” in the Orthodox Church (or in the Roman Catholic Church for that matter).

Well, we can go over them to show how you have, but the powers that be tend to shut off such discussion, so were in a 'bit of pickle' as the British say.

prodromos · 2026-07-27T16:08:09-0500

reddogs said:
Well, we can go over them to show how you have

You would need to demonstrate where @The Liturgist has done so in this thread, since that is the claim you made. Random websites can't engage in discussion.
Honestly, I'm surprised that you would use that website to argue your point, considering what else they say, especially this. Do you believe they provide a fair, and unbiased argument?

MarkRohfrietsch · 2026-07-27T21:13:06-0500

fhansen said:
If I may, @The Liturgist takes the objective and scholarly approach, accepting truth wherever it's to be found and rejecting pseudo-knowledge or pop-mythology otherwise. He won't agree with all Catholic teachings in any case but definitely recognizes those similarities between them and the other ancient churches.

As do most traditional Christians.

MarkRohfrietsch · 2026-07-27T21:17:26-0500

reddogs said:
Well, we can go over them to show how you have, but the powers that be tend to shut off such discussion, so were in a 'bit of pickle' as the British say.

And so they should when member try and put words in the the mouths of other members.

fhansen · 2026-07-27T22:19:41-0500

reddogs said:
But why defend doctrines that has drifted into what are clearly philosophies of Greek and Roman traditions to say nothing of error would be my question.

I'm not sure what you're getting at but if you're referring to conciliar decrees, creeds, etc, that was the church doing nothing more or less than what the apostles, the church, did in Acts in order to decide on and resolve controversies, determine the truth, guided by the Holy Spirit.

As for traditions of men, many of those have been made since and due to the advent of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, with many disagreeing with others on the meaning of God's word. Now, if we still just had a reasonable degree of unity in the Christian family we might actually be able to sit down and resolve such matters.

reddogs · 2026-07-28T06:07:15-0500

prodromos said:
You would need to demonstrate where @The Liturgist has done so in this thread, since that is the claim you made. Random websites can't engage in discussion.
Honestly, I'm surprised that you would use that website to argue your point, considering what else they say, especially this. Do you believe they provide a fair, and unbiased argument?

Well, I cant say the most obvious which he will admit which is the day of worship......

Why are there even denominations to begin with?

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