Sugar Molecules Found In Space

AV1611VET · Friday at 5:19 PM

Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.

A four-carbon sugar discovered 26,000 light-years away may explain how DNA's backbone arrived on Earth.

Here’s what you’ll learn when you read this story:

Life requires a few ingredients to get going, including sugars that form the backbone of DNA and RNA.
A new study found a four-carbon sugar named “erythrulose” in a molecular cloud in the interstellar medium (ISM) roughly 26,000 light-years away.
It’s possible that early meteorites brought billions of kilograms of erythrulose to Earth during the Late Heavy Bombardment.

SOURCE

Back to the drawing board to rewrite the origin of life. :doh:

This is what gets me though.

Notice -- sugar 26,000 light years away! is found.

If I drop sugar on our carpet, I can't even see it hardly from two feet away!

Anyway, sugar is found 152,844,259,702,760,600 miles away and already scientists think they know how it got here, when it got here, and what it did when it arrived.

Your thoughts?

jacks · Friday at 6:39 PM

It will probably turn out to be saccharin, further complicating the origin of life.

johansen · Friday at 6:46 PM

with the computational power we have to day, its probably rather easy for an ai engine to figure out what combinations over how many billion years are required for the chemicals to show up in the places and combinations they need to, under the right conditions as well as irradiation, to make just about any molecule.

AV1611VET · Friday at 7:49 PM

jacks said:
It will probably turn out to be saccharin, further complicating the origin of life.

So THAT'S why there's no mice in space!

AV1611VET · Friday at 8:23 PM

johansen said:
with the computational power we have to day, its probably rather easy for an ai engine to figure out what combinations over how many billion years are required for the chemicals to show up in the places and combinations they need to, under the right conditions as well as irradiation, to make just about any molecule.

Servus · Friday at 10:21 PM

It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.

I wonder how many rewrites that makes altogether.

AV1611VET said:
View attachment 381747

Lost4words · Friday at 10:28 PM

AV1611VET said:
Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.

A four-carbon sugar discovered 26,000 light-years away may explain how DNA's backbone arrived on Earth.

Here’s what you’ll learn when you read this story:

Life requires a few ingredients to get going, including sugars that form the backbone of DNA and RNA.

A new study found a four-carbon sugar named “erythrulose” in a molecular cloud in the interstellar medium (ISM) roughly 26,000 light-years away.

It’s possible that early meteorites brought billions of kilograms of erythrulose to Earth during the Late Heavy Bombardment.

SOURCE

Back to the drawing board to rewrite the origin of life.

This is what gets me though.

Notice -- sugar 26,000 light years away! is found.

If I drop sugar on our carpet, I can't even see it hardly from two feet away!

Anyway, sugar is found 152,844,259,702,760,600 miles away and already scientists think they know how it got here, when it got here, and what it did when it arrived.

Your thoughts?

Baloney.........or should I say nope!

d taylor · Friday at 10:32 PM

-

Why not believe it, yall believe all of the other nonsense and deceptions from science.

Hans Blaster · Friday at 10:42 PM

johansen said:
with the computational power we have to day, its probably rather easy for an ai engine to figure out what combinations over how many billion years are required for the chemicals to show up in the places and combinations they need to, under the right conditions as well as irradiation, to make just about any molecule.

And train it with what data?

AV1611VET · Friday at 11:29 PM

Servus said:
I wonder how many rewrites that makes altogether.

Good point!

AV1611VET · Friday at 11:32 PM

Lost4words said:
Baloney.........or should I say nope!

Hey ... this was found on the moon!

johansen · Friday at 11:51 PM

Hans Blaster said:
And train it with what data?

so you can go onto wikipedia and probably find in 30 seconds enough information to know what temperature such a molecule will decompose at. meaning, it won't exist beyond a few seconds to hours to days.

common table sugar above 200C doesn't exist after a few hours, you just have carbon powder and water vapor.

there is nothing magical about space chemistry, other than we have a few billion years on our side. so low temperature data at high irradiation levels is the chemical dataset you're looking for. Teflon can't handle the x rays we use for cancer treatment for example, so if someone claimed to find teflon in space i'd be really skeptical.

currently we have some companies intending to use nuclear isotopes to both produce energy and increase the efficiency of hydrocarbon, both cracking and hydrotreating. some of those companies might have privilidged datasets they might contract out to you if you agree to only discuss creating sugar molecules in space.

Hans Blaster · Saturday at 12:14 AM

johansen said:
so you can go onto wikipedia and probably find in 30 seconds enough information to know what temperature such a molecule will decompose at. meaning, it won't exist beyond a few seconds to hours to days.

No you won't. wikipedia is not a table of reaction rates for chemicals

johansen said:
common table sugar above 200C doesn't exist after a few hours, you just have carbon powder and water vapor.

It isn't "common table sugar".

Do you even know what a molecular cloud is? How cold it is? How dense it is?

(No, of course you don't.)

A molecular cloud is not at 200 degC (473 K, the only temperature scale we will use from here on). A molecular cloud has a temperature of something like 10-20 K. That is very very cold. The only places on Earth that cold (or colder) are very expensive cryogenic systems. Liquid nitrogen is much warmer than a molecular cloud.

As for the density, density in molecular clouds are measured in (tens of) atoms per cubic centimeter.

How is it going to break down? What will collide with erythrulose molecules to excite them into a reaction channel?

johansen said:
there is nothing magical about space chemistry, other than we have a few billion years on our side. so low temperature data at high irradiation levels is the chemical dataset you're looking for.

Molecules form and break apart. Molecular clouds aren't that highly irradiated. They are cold, dark places until stars star forming in them.

johansen said:
Teflon can't handle the x rays we use for cancer treatment for example, so if someone claimed to find teflon in space i'd be really skeptical.

I can't get to the polymer, but how about CF+?

First detection of CF+ in the Large Magellanic Cloud | Astronomy & Astrophysics (A&A)

Astronomy & Astrophysics (A&A) is an international journal which publishes papers on all aspects of astronomy and astrophysics

www.aanda.org

johansen said:
currently we have some companies intending to use nuclear isotopes to both produce energy and increase the efficiency of hydrocarbon, both cracking and hydrotreating. some of those companies might have privilidged datasets they might contract out to you if you agree to only discuss creating sugar molecules in space.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?

johansen · Saturday at 12:30 AM

Hans Blaster said:
No you won't. wikipedia is not a table of reaction rates for chemicals

im sure you know better, but if you don't know how to use the internet, wikipedia used to be a good website to find actual source referances, like say the CRC chemical handbook.

Saccharin typically melts around 228°C to 230°C and undergoes significant thermal volatilization and decomposition starting above 350°C, though specific breakdown behavior depends on environmental conditions like pH and heating duration. [1, 2]

Thermal and Stability Characteristics

- Melting Point: 228°C–230°C (insoluble saccharin form transitions from solid to liquid). [1, 2]
- Volatilization/Decomposition Threshold: Begins major breakdown and volatilization around 350°C under dry analytical conditions, possessing high activation energy requirements compared to other sweeteners. [1, 2]
- Low-pH / High-Heat Degradation: Experiences measurable degradation when exposed to extreme heat like 125°C combined with high acidity (pH 2) for over an hour, turning into non-sweet (ammonium-o-sulfo)benzoic acid. [1]
- Sodium Saccharin Frying Breakdown: Sodium saccharin completely decomposes at 190°C over a 40-minute duration during high-temperature oil frying, yielding o-sulfamoylbenzoic acid

--- so anyhow.

you do know that "dry" conditions means, inert gas right?

in space, it is absolutely "dry" and also at zero pressure. so, the decomposition temps may be slightly higher or lower than 14.7 psi.

johansen · Saturday at 12:45 AM

Hans Blaster said:
It isn't "common table sugar".

i had a hunch you were trolling so i did a google search for the actual chemical listed
turns out it breaks down rapidly above 104F.

so, some pathway existed for its creation, then enough of it got blown out into space where it could remain cold enough not to be destroyed by background radiation over a billion years.

mindlight · Saturday at 3:20 AM

AV1611VET said:
Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.

A four-carbon sugar discovered 26,000 light-years away may explain how DNA's backbone arrived on Earth.

Here’s what you’ll learn when you read this story:

Life requires a few ingredients to get going, including sugars that form the backbone of DNA and RNA.

A new study found a four-carbon sugar named “erythrulose” in a molecular cloud in the interstellar medium (ISM) roughly 26,000 light-years away.

It’s possible that early meteorites brought billions of kilograms of erythrulose to Earth during the Late Heavy Bombardment.

SOURCE

Back to the drawing board to rewrite the origin of life.

This is what gets me though.

Notice -- sugar 26,000 light years away! is found.

If I drop sugar on our carpet, I can't even see it hardly from two feet away!

Anyway, sugar is found 152,844,259,702,760,600 miles away and already scientists think they know how it got here, when it got here, and what it did when it arrived.

Your thoughts?

This seems like a better science link for this:

Detection of a four-carbon sugar in interstellar space - Nature Astronomy

A monosaccharide sugar has been detected in an interstellar cloud: the chiral ketose erythrulose. Observations and chemical modelling show that it forms efficiently on dust grains, supporting an interstellar origin for prebiotic sugars linked to early life.

www.nature.com

Of course erythrulose (C4 H8 O4) could also have formed on earth so why do we need to speculate about an extra terrestrial origin story here? Is this because it boosts the probability score, if we bring the entire universe into play, that all the building blocks of life somehow got together to produce the conditions in which life could spontaneously emerge!!!

Given the billions of years speculated for the history of the earth this does not seem to be necessary even for someone wanting to find some facts (any in fact) to support the notion of abiogenesis. From my perspective nothing has changed - science still cannot prove anything regarding chemical evolution from non-biological to biological life. When they can demonstrate this in lab conditions I might start to take the theory seriously.

Hans Blaster · Saturday at 8:58 AM

johansen said:
im sure you know better, but if you don't know how to use the internet,

You really do like to make insults. I could find things on the internet before Google existed. I still can.

johansen said:
wikipedia used to be a good website to find actual source referances, like say the CRC chemical handbook.

Then why not say the the CRC handbook? (I thought about buying one 30 years ago, but didn't really need it.)

Unfortunately, the chemistry parts are mostly about Earth chiemistry done under Earth conditions like a chemist (student, research, or industrial) would find in the general usage. We are not talking about conditions anything like molecular clouds.

johansen said:
Saccharin typically melts around 228°C to 230°C and undergoes significant thermal volatilization and decomposition starting above 350°C, though specific breakdown behavior depends on environmental conditions like pH and heating duration. [1, 2]

We are not talking about saccharine.
The temperatures you have quoted (500 K and 600+ K) are 10 to 50 TIMES warmer than a molecular cloud where the space sugar was detected. (And yes, because I am using a proper, absolute temperature scale I can say "x times hotter".)

johansen said:
Thermal and Stability Characteristics

Melting Point: 228°C–230°C (insoluble saccharin form transitions from solid to liquid). [1, 2]

Volatilization/Decomposition Threshold: Begins major breakdown and volatilization around 350°C under dry analytical conditions, possessing high activation energy requirements compared to other sweeteners. [1, 2]

Low-pH / High-Heat Degradation: Experiences measurable degradation when exposed to extreme heat like 125°C combined with high acidity (pH 2) for over an hour, turning into non-sweet (ammonium-o-sulfo)benzoic acid. [1]

Sodium Saccharin Frying Breakdown: Sodium saccharin completely decomposes at 190°C over a 40-minute duration during high-temperature oil frying, yielding o-sulfamoylbenzoic acid

All way, way too hot for what we are talking about here. Do you understand that?

We are talking about a cold, low density GAS with this particular sugar molecule in it. There is *NO* laboratory on Earth that gets even close to how low in density and pressure the molecular cloud environment is.

johansen said:
--- so anyhow.

Are we going to try a relevant environment now? (I guess not.)

johansen said:
you do know that "dry" conditions means, inert gas right?

Completely irrelevant. This is not occurring in a laboratory on Earth at high densities. Most of the molecules around these sugars are hydrogen (H2) molecules.

johansen said:
in space, it is absolutely "dry" and also at zero pressure. so, the decomposition temps may be slightly higher or lower than 14.7 psi.

LOL, you really do have no idea what you are talking about.

Hans Blaster · Saturday at 9:06 AM

johansen said:
i had a hunch you were trolling so i did a google search for the actual chemical listed
turns out it breaks down rapidly above 104F.

Your spidey-sense is seriously malfunctioning. I have told you nothing that isn't true. I'm trying to figure out what you major malfunction is, but I haven't yet.

The temperature you give for break down is 310 K, again, this is way way hotter than a molecular cloud.

Additionally, the break down of any molecule is dependent on conditions. It could be the temperature alone (collisions at higher temperatures having the energy to activate reaction pathways that lead to decomposition) or it could be from some environmental interaction (collisions with oxygen molecules have enough energy to activate a reaction pathway that destroys the sugar).

johansen said:
so, some pathway existed for its creation, then enough of it got blown out into space where it could remain cold enough not to be destroyed by background radiation over a billion years.

It isn't "blown out into space". IT FORMS THERE.

Lost4words · Saturday at 9:39 AM

Just heard they found coffee granules in outer space!!!!

Hans Blaster · Saturday at 5:01 PM

mindlight said:
This seems like a better science link for this:

Detection of a four-carbon sugar in interstellar space - Nature Astronomy

A monosaccharide sugar has been detected in an interstellar cloud: the chiral ketose erythrulose. Observations and chemical modelling show that it forms efficiently on dust grains, supporting an interstellar origin for prebiotic sugars linked to early life.

www.nature.com

Definitely.

mindlight said:
Of course erythrulose (C4 H8 O4) could also have formed on earth so why do we need to speculate about an extra terrestrial origin story here?

It is about the conditions prior to the forming of the Earth. The Solar System formed from a molecular cloud very much like the one where erythrulose was observed. This means that erythrulose could have been in the Earth-forming cloud.

mindlight said:
Is this because it boosts the probability score, if we bring the entire universe into play, that all the building blocks of life somehow got together to produce the conditions in which life could spontaneously emerge!!!

The whole Universe is not involved in making the Solar System, just the local enrichments and gas inflows for the first 8 Billion years of the Galaxy.

mindlight said:
Given the billions of years speculated for the history of the earth

The age of the Earth is MEASURED. So is the age of the Sun. Speculation is not required.

mindlight said:
this does not seem to be necessary even for someone wanting to find some facts (any in fact) to support the notion of abiogenesis.

Are you confused? Astronomers have been trying to figure out what the various things in the sky are made of for a very long time. For low temperature environments like molecular clouds (so named because molecules are common in them), the first signs of complex organic molecules go back about 40 years.

Does the detection of titanium dioxide indicate astronomers are grasping to prove aliens like white paint?
The detection of benzene that they are trying to help oil companies with interstellar oil prospecting?

mindlight said:
From my perspective nothing has changed - science still cannot prove anything regarding chemical evolution from non-biological to biological life. When they can demonstrate this in lab conditions I might start to take the theory seriously.

Not the subject.

Sugar Molecules Found In Space

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Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.​

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Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.​

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Scientists Found Sugar in Space. It Could Rewrite the Origin of Life.​

Your turn, Atlanta!

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