Some contend against Blessed Mary

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Faith in Christ, which is essential, while faith before the revelation that finally came of the mystery of Christ's atonement could be adequate for being covered in Christ for salvation, and may be enough for those where the gospel of Christ has not ever reached, still does not depend on what if any beliefs about Mary there are.

FredVB said:

Faith in Christ, which is essential, while faith before the revelation that finally came of the mystery of Christ's atonement could be adequate for being covered in Christ for salvation, and may be enough for those where the gospel of Christ has not ever reached, still does not depend on what if any beliefs about Mary there are.

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The Christian life rests upon loving God, but, as St. Thomas Aquinas reminds us, love follows knowledge. We cannot love deeply what we do not know well. This is why Mary's place in salvation history is so important. In the Magnificat she proclaims, "My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Mary's mission is not to draw attention to herself but to reveal Christ more clearly, making Him the object of deeper contemplation, greater knowledge, and therefore greater love.

JoeT

JoeT said:

The Christian life rests upon loving God, but, as St. Thomas Aquinas reminds us, love follows knowledge. We cannot love deeply what we do not know well. This is why Mary's place in salvation history is so important. In the Magnificat she proclaims, "My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Mary's mission is not to draw attention to herself but to reveal Christ more clearly, making Him the object of deeper contemplation, greater knowledge, and therefore greater love.

JoeT

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As we all know, precious little is stated in Holy Scripture concerning Mary and her life. We have enormously more information about Paul, for example. If one were to base one's devotion on one's knowledge, then Paul would vastly exceed in devotion more than Mary or virtually any of the other saints.

bbbbbbb said:

As we all know, precious little is stated in Holy Scripture concerning Mary and her life. We have enormously more information about Paul, for example. If one were to base one's devotion on one's knowledge, then Paul would vastly exceed in devotion more than Mary or virtually any of the other saints.

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I assume you're basing that on a simple word count. But isn't quality more important than quantity? Mary is uniquely described as "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), "blessed among women" (Luke 1:42), the Mother of the Messiah, and the woman whose Son is the eternal Son of God. Scripture never attributes anything comparable to St. Paul. Paul is undoubtedly a great apostle, but Mary's dignity comes from her unparalleled relationship to Christ. The New Testament may say more about Paul, yet it says greater things about Mary. Following Mary is to walk effortlessly with her into perfection (Cf Matthew 5:48]
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JoeT

bbbbbbb said:

As we all know, precious little is stated in Holy Scripture concerning Mary and her life. We have enormously more information about Paul, for example. If one were to base one's devotion on one's knowledge, then Paul would vastly exceed in devotion more than Mary or virtually any of the other saints.

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Mary's "yes" was the most important in all of salvation history, an essential part of God's plan. She was there when The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. Mary was also there at the foot of the cross. The usage of "woman" by Jesus at the wedding at Cana in addressing his mother is not a practice in Jewish culture, it was a reference back to Genesis where God used "woman" to refer to Eve. Both Eve and Mary came into the world without sin, Eve sinned and Mary did not. Mary is particularly blessed, even more than she was because she was the mother of God, because she did God's will and did not sin. After Mary brought up the fact there was no more wine Jesus said His time had not yet come. Yet he performed this miracle because his mother requested it, fulfilling the role of the queen in the Davidic kingdom. We see her in Revelation, wearing a crown and standing on the moon, which reflects the light of the sun, as Mary reflects or magnifies the light of Our Lord:
Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, RSVCE

FredVB said:

Faith in Christ, which is essential, while faith before the revelation that finally came of the mystery of Christ's atonement could be adequate for being covered in Christ for salvation, and may be enough for those where the gospel of Christ has not ever reached, still does not depend on what if any beliefs about Mary there are.

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There have been no posts in this topic for nearly three years. Why did you think there was any need to bump it, especially to make such a nondescript post? In fact, I've noticed you have a habit of doing this, going into long-dead topics just to make a post... is there any particular reason why you keep reviving long-dead topics?

JoeT said:

The Christian life rests upon loving God, but, as St. Thomas Aquinas reminds us, love follows knowledge. We cannot love deeply what we do not know well. This is why Mary's place in salvation history is so important. In the Magnificat she proclaims, "My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Mary's mission is not to draw attention to herself but to reveal Christ more clearly, making Him the object of deeper contemplation, greater knowledge, and therefore greater love.

JoeT

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Love is the greatest and God calls for it as God shows the way. With growing to do so as fully as God would have us doing we would not keep mercy and compassion from us limited. We should grow with fruit of the Spirit, whether we know anything of Mary or not. Jesus is really relevant for this.

FredVB said:

Love is the greatest and God calls for it as God shows the way. With growing to do so as fully as God would have us doing we would not keep mercy and compassion from us limited. We should grow with fruit of the Spirit, whether we know anything of Mary or not. Jesus is really relevant for this.

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I agree that love is the greatest and that growth in the fruits of the Spirit is essential. St. Thomas Aquinas' point is, however, not that love is more important than knowledge, but that love is directed by knowledge. We cannot truly love what we do not, in some sense, know.

For example, our love for Christ deepens as our knowledge of Him deepens. The more we understand His person, sacrifice, and will, the more fully we can love Him. In that sense, "love follows knowledge."

The same principle applies to Mary. People can certainly grow in holiness without knowing much about her, but as one comes to know who she is in God's plan, her faith, obedience, and maternal relationship to Christ's disciples, that knowledge can foster greater love and appreciation for what God has done through her. Coming to know Mary we come to understand the God’s intimate love for her and by extension for us, whereby she magnifies the Lord.

Ultimately, devotion to Mary is not an alternative to Jesus or a distraction from Him, rather a focus on Him. Properly understood, it leads us to Him, because everything significant about Mary derives from her relationship to Christ. So, I would say that love is indeed the goal, but knowledge often serves as the doorway through which love grows disproportionately deeper.

JoeT

JoeT said:

I agree that love is the greatest and that growth in the fruits of the Spirit is essential. St. Thomas Aquinas' point is, however, not that love is more important than knowledge, but that love is directed by knowledge. We cannot truly love what we do not, in some sense, know.

For example, our love for Christ deepens as our knowledge of Him deepens. The more we understand His person, sacrifice, and will, the more fully we can love Him. In that sense, "love follows knowledge."

The same principle applies to Mary. People can certainly grow in holiness without knowing much about her, but as one comes to know who she is in God's plan, her faith, obedience, and maternal relationship to Christ's disciples, that knowledge can foster greater love and appreciation for what God has done through her. Coming to know Mary we come to understand the God’s intimate love for her and by extension for us, whereby she magnifies the Lord.

Ultimately, devotion to Mary is not an alternative to Jesus or a distraction from Him, rather a focus on Him. Properly understood, it leads us to Him, because everything significant about Mary derives from her relationship to Christ. So, I would say that love is indeed the goal, but knowledge often serves as the doorway through which love grows disproportionately deeper.

JoeT

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Ultimately, we have precious few facts to work from. The net result has been a very intricate biography based primarily upon theological speculation.

bbbbbbb said:

Ultimately, we have precious few facts to work from. The net result has been a very intricate biography based primarily upon theological speculation.

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Surly you’re not saying the Scripture is insufficient, are you? It is true we have only a small number of hard-core facts concerning Mary life. And when you get right down to it, we have relatively few explicit historical details about Jesus Christ except for his theological teachings relative to some other biblical figures. But that doesn't mean everything else is mere speculation.

Catholic teaching about Mary is based first on the biblical facts we do have: she is the Mother of God (Luke 1:43), "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), the obedient New Eve (Luke 1:38 compared with Genesis 3), and the woman associated with her Son's mission from Cana to Calvary (John 2 and John 19). From those revealed truths, the Church reflects on their implications, much as Christians do with the Trinity, the canon of Scripture, or the two natures of Christ.

In other words, theology is not inventing new facts, rather it is drawing conclusions from revealed facts we do have. St. John himself says that not everything Jesus did was written down (John 21:25). The Church has always held that divine revelation is preserved not only in Scripture but also in Apostolic Tradition.

So the question is not whether there is theological reflection involved. Every Christian tradition engages in theological reflection. The real question is whether the conclusions about Mary logically and faithfully follow from what God has revealed about her and about Christ. We can reasonably assume that what ever Jesus Christ taught Mary consumed in her heart, soul and mind as she knew her Son like only a mother can.

After all, if Jesus is truly God, then the woman who bore Him is not an ordinary figure in salvation history. The more we understand who Christ is, the more significance Mary's role naturally takes on.

JoeT