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Thank you for sharing scripture! It’s appreciated.
I have nothing else to add.
Peace!
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Religiosity as an advantageous trait
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I have nothing else to add.
Peace!
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Actually, in my estimation, what is happening is that both you and I respectively come at nearly every issue known to man from different angles ideologically, philosophically, generationally and practically. To some moderate extent, we are essentially talking past each other with only partial overlap. It's like that scene at the end of The Martian Chronicles......
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Gehenna was the burning pit in Jerusalem where there was constant fire. Garbage was burned there, and the pagans sacrificed their children to Moloch there.
Jesus used Gehenna as an image of hell. (Fire and constant burning)
What is hell? Is it just separation from God? Or is it fire and eternal torment?
I don’t know. I hope I never know. God willing.
You’re right! Hell is hell!
Just like Jesus used images of heaven as the eternal banquet or feast etc
It’s IMAGERY.
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I understand your POV, sir. I think eternal nothingness and being separated from God forever is extremely depressing. I understand why you don’t like that perspective. I get it.
I’m not an atheist, so I sincerely hope I don’t sound rude or mean. I like and respect @Bradskii very, very, VERY much. He’s awesome! Just so I’m clear.
I 100% respect his POV, nonetheless Peace!
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Bradskii
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No. You played the man, not the ball and jumped to a conclusion which was wrong. And kept digging for a while. The last few posts have seen you surreptitiously shovelling the dirt back in.
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Well ... you know ... he is world renown.
No no!
As I pointed out earlier ... you guys must think MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Not the other way around.
Then fix it.
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Yes ... I'm familiar with it.
I knew it was their garbage site; but I didn't know that's where they passed their children through the fire.
Are you familiar with the Christian perspective on what Hell is, per se?
Did you know that Adam & Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, King David, Job, Jonah, and all Old Testament saints (save Enoch?) died and went to Hell?
Hell was a place consisting of both Paradise on one side and Hell proper on the other.
In between the two was a great gulf.
This is borne out by Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus, where we see the rich man on the torment side, and both Abraham and Lazarus on the paradise side.
When Jesus arose, He brought Paradise up with Him and took it to Heaven.
Today, Hell consists of just the torment side.
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I understand your POV, sir. I think eternal nothingness and being separated from God forever is extremely depressing. I understand why you don’t like that perspective. I get it.
I’m not an atheist, so I sincerely hope I don’t sound rude or mean. I like and respect @Bradskii very, very, VERY much. He’s awesome! Just so I’m clear.
Peace!
That's your prerogative, Riley.
If you can't see the blasphemy in what he said, nor the advice that could potentially lead to his grandson committing the unpardonable sin, then it's up to the Holy Ghost.
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Hans Blaster
Your turn, Atlanta!
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My only comment further is, from a Christian perspective, on this side of eternity, it's never too late to repent. This isn't addressed to anyone personally, but God never rejects a contrite heart.
I understand what you're saying.
As a faithful Christian, I do pray for non-believers daily that they will be brought to the light of the Gospel. I cannot preach until I'm blue in my face. I do not change people's minds. I'm only a finite human being.
But per the words of Jesus, sometimes we have to shake the dust off our feet! Live and let live.
Let the Holy Spirit do the heavy lifting!
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Sheol. Yes. They went to Sheol, but they weren't damned for all eternity.
The Christian belief, according to most small o Orthodox Christians, is Jesus went to hell on Holy Saturday and brought the saved up to heaven including Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Solomon et al.
Enoch never died, that's true. Same with Elijah.
I think we are confusing hell (eternal) with Sheol.
Am I following you ok?
I agree with the very last comment, FWIW.
IT appears we both agree on this.
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*The Jewish understanding of the afterlife was very gradual, which later influenced Christianity. Jewish people today don't necessarily focus on the afterlife, but more on the here and now.
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Hans Blaster
Your turn, Atlanta!
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Other than the explicit "since there are no gods" opening, the advice is generally sound and something like the rest of it has been said by many a faithful Christian to a child, grandchild, etc.
I do however agree with the full statement in #108. If you thought we felt any differently about the gods we don't think exist you've been living in your own head.
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Bradskii
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I've not seen anyone suggest such a thing. Yet you are saying that what you should fight for is God's glory. As it makes you a better human.
I can't be bothered even giving examples of how galactically wrong you are.
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Look, @Bradskii has a right to teach his children/grandchildren whatever he wants, regardless of what we might think about it, etc.
The reason I didn't react the same way you guys did, is because I'm not at all surprised by it, like the rest of you were, etc. It's almost like you don't know what's going on in the world, and I do, etc. It's an atheistic family (probably) and this is probably going on in almost all atheistic/non-believing families everywhere, etc, and none of us should be surprised by it, etc.
His grandchild could change his mind later on also, etc, decide Grandpa was somewhat jaded, or had a somewhat jaded perspective/point of view, and wasn't evaluating this subject honestly, or something like that, and then begin to explore the possibility for themselves later on maybe, etc.
I get it though, and I don't think it's right to teach any child absolutes either, etc, as part of being a child should be allowing them to be open to any or all possibilities, and fully explore/evaluate them for themselves, etc.
But regardless of what I think, it doesn't shock me at all that people are indoctrinating their children/grandchildren in whatever they believe (or don't believe) pretty much everywhere, etc. And my only hope is that those children will be allowed to think for themselves at some point, which is what these children are right now being robbed of, etc, but I would also like to note, that I this also applies to some christian families as well, etc.
But regardless of what I might think or feel about that, or any of it, etc, it doesn't at all surprise or shock me at all, because I both know, and expect, for it to be going on and/or happening everywhere in the world, etc, so I don't understand why you guys are so shocked by it, etc. I might think it's not exactly right, but it's to be expected, etc.
And if you guys don't already know this, then you need to wake up/take another look around, because it shouldn't at all surprise you even one bit, that this is going on and happening everywhere, etc. And it's his family, and not ours, and so we don't have any kind of authority over them, but people like @Bradskii does right now currently, etc. You also have authority within your own individual families, and should teach them what you think, or how you would like them to think, etc.
Anyway, God Bless.
The reason I didn't react the same way you guys did, is because I'm not at all surprised by it, like the rest of you were, etc. It's almost like you don't know what's going on in the world, and I do, etc. It's an atheistic family (probably) and this is probably going on in almost all atheistic/non-believing families everywhere, etc, and none of us should be surprised by it, etc.
His grandchild could change his mind later on also, etc, decide Grandpa was somewhat jaded, or had a somewhat jaded perspective/point of view, and wasn't evaluating this subject honestly, or something like that, and then begin to explore the possibility for themselves later on maybe, etc.
I get it though, and I don't think it's right to teach any child absolutes either, etc, as part of being a child should be allowing them to be open to any or all possibilities, and fully explore/evaluate them for themselves, etc.
But regardless of what I think, it doesn't shock me at all that people are indoctrinating their children/grandchildren in whatever they believe (or don't believe) pretty much everywhere, etc. And my only hope is that those children will be allowed to think for themselves at some point, which is what these children are right now being robbed of, etc, but I would also like to note, that I this also applies to some christian families as well, etc.
But regardless of what I might think or feel about that, or any of it, etc, it doesn't at all surprise or shock me at all, because I both know, and expect, for it to be going on and/or happening everywhere in the world, etc, so I don't understand why you guys are so shocked by it, etc. I might think it's not exactly right, but it's to be expected, etc.
And if you guys don't already know this, then you need to wake up/take another look around, because it shouldn't at all surprise you even one bit, that this is going on and happening everywhere, etc. And it's his family, and not ours, and so we don't have any kind of authority over them, but people like @Bradskii does right now currently, etc. You also have authority within your own individual families, and should teach them what you think, or how you would like them to think, etc.
Anyway, God Bless.
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Bradskii
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Thanks Neo. I might take this opportunity, prompted by your comment above, to point out that intentionally indoctrinating anyone, let alone children, is anathema to me. And by indoctrinating I mean specifically telling someone what to think uncritically. And I'd use a couple of examples to back up what I mean.
My grandson's mother and her sibling (my kids in other words) didn't know I was an atheist until at least my daughter's late teens. It came up in conversation over dinner one evening and there was some surprise expressed by both. We obviously weren't church goers but both of them had been sent to Catholic schools. The reason for that was simply because my wife and I considered the boy's school and the girl's school to the best in the area. As a family we discussed most things over the dining table, but religion wasn't one of them. And they had thought that it was a given that we had some association with the Catholic Church. The question was then asked by my daughter: 'What if it happened that we'd decided to become Catholics?' And the answer, which seems blazingly obvious to me, was 'That's a decision that's entirely up to you. We can't decide that for you'.
Also blazingly obvious was the fact that if either of them had wanted to discuss religion then I'd have been open and honest about my own beliefs and we'd have another subject to talk about over dinner.
In addition to that, I was, up until recently, taking classes on Ethics at my Grandson's primary school (he's moved on to senior school now). That entailed taking a couple of dozen 9 year olds once a week for an hour. I'd read them a short story - maybe one of Aesop's fables or a short story about children their age working in India. Then asking them questions about it. Questions intended to prompt debate amongst themselves.
I remember the first couple of weeks when there was a reluctance on the part of the children to speak up about what they thought was right or wrong. Primarily because they were used to adults telling them what was right or wrong. I had to keep reminding them that that wasn't why I was there. I was there to ask the questions but they had to give the answers. And it was explained to them that there were no right or wrong answers.
Obviously, the whole exercise was to get children used to making ethical decisions themselves. And having a reason for making them. And not to decide that something was wrong simply because someone had told them that it was wrong. That being the very opposite of indoctrination.
I remember talking about the classes with one of the parents at some school function. And he telling me that he'd recently told his daughter that she couldn't do something. And when pushed 'But why??' used the usual 'Because I said so' that all of us parents have used at some time. And she said 'No, Daddy. Our ethics teacher says that you must have a reason'. I can't tell you how delighted I was.
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Well, I thank you for sharing that, but in the post that everyone seems to have gotten in such an uproar about, it was kind of presented that you were speaking to your grandson (and age wasn't mentioned?) But and/or anyway, that you were presenting your beliefs to your grandson as absolutes, etc. So maybe if you could provide a little bit more information about that story maybe, maybe these other people won't attack you anymore so much, or get in such an uproar about it maybe?
This story that you just now mentioned is interesting to me though, so I thank you for sharing it. I always like learning more about the lives of the people I know, or have been debating with/talking to on here, etc.
Take Care @Bradskii
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Bradskii
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That there is no Sunday school version of the Pearly Gates? And no 72 virgins? That there is no reincarnation? And a lot of people following umpteen religions are afraid of death and they look to their religion as offering a continuation after death as some sort of prize for being good? Yeah, those are things that I expect any reasonable person to accept as a given. The kid is smart. If he hasn't thought much about those matters then when he does he'll come to the same conclusion. It's like telling him that the world isn't flat or that it's not 6,000 years old. It's a given.
Now when he's a little more mature and if he considers that there actually might be something beyond death, then that'll make for an interesting conversation over a couple of beers (I think he'll need another 5 years before his mother would allow that). But I didn't tell him that there isn't anything like that and that's what he must believe. And I'll state this again: The comments were not 'I don't believe in any of this, therefore...you don't get a second chance.' It's rather obviously 'I don't believe in any of this, but in any case...you don't get a second chance.'
Whether he'll believe the first part will be up to him. He's got no options on the second. It's as much of a fact as the world being round. And I might note that if there was any confusion about what I said, then in my very next post I clarified exactly what I meant:
'The advice stands whether there is an afterlife or not'.
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