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2PhiloVoid

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Just click the link and read the article.

Ok. Well, you have an interesting thesis and I can see you've put a lot of thought and work into maintaining your ongoing telos. And I can appreciate that, but at the end of the day, I'm simply operating from withing a different area of philosophy and tend to strongly veer from the ontological position you're apparently wanting to posit.

In short, I'm not a big fan of Aristotle or of most of ancient philosophy, so please excuse me if I see the act of returning to ancient Greek modes of thought as inadequate, especially if used for the sake of pantheistic theorizing.
 
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Teofrastus

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Ok. Well, you have an interesting thesis and I can see you've put a lot of thought and work into maintaining your ongoing telos. And I can appreciate that, but at the end of the day, I'm simply operating from withing a different area of philosophy and tend to strongly veer from the ontological position you're apparently wanting to posit.

In short, I'm not a big fan of Aristotle or of most of ancient philosophy, so please excuse me if I see the act of returning to ancient Greek modes of thought as inadequate, especially if used for the sake of pantheistic theorizing.
It is not pantheism, because pneuma does not denote the presence of the divine essence. Rather, it signifies the active and formative power of the transcendent God, as in the theology of Maximus Confessor. From the standpoint of quantum physics, we need not derive the logoi from the divine Logos, as Maximus does, since physicists generally prefer to leave God outside the equation.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is not pantheism, because pneuma does not denote the presence of the divine essence.
Ok.
Rather, it signifies the active and formative power of the transcendent God, as in the theology of Maximus Confessor. From the standpoint of quantum physics, we need not derive the logoi from the divine Logos, as Maximus does, since physicists generally prefer to leave God outside the equation.

Let me see if I understand you correctly: in sum, you seem to be implying that quantified information packets may theoretically be thought of as having originated from a divine source, rather instantly even, but we will not know that they derive and arrive to us from that divine source......

.... but instead of a Direct Realism of more Newtonian shades of causality, we might instead have a Quantum Realism with imminent shades of Hegelian realization (but without the Idealism). Or something along those lines?
 
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Ophiolite

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The forum seems to be populated, in no small measure, by individuals whose mental furnishings are distressingly sparse.
Please don't judge yourself so harshly. Dunning-Kruger affects us all.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Just click the link and read the article.

I see the author read some article or a book or two on past ideas about interpretations of QM and wavefunctions and the like. The citations of famous name in physics and their personal opinions (including from my GG grand-advisor) don't impress me. I'm not interested in physicists waxing philosophic about QM. If they have an experiment to demonstrate what the wavefunction or the like 'mean' then they should do it and publish it.

For the rest of the article the author engages in philosophical musings of some sort in some vain attempt to connect ancient to modern philosophers to QM. No one who actually knows QM and cares what it means will care about such irrelevancies.
 
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AV1611VET

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For the rest of the article the author engages in philosophical musings of some sort in some vain attempt to connect ancient to modern philosophers to QM.

1784253172992.png
 
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Teofrastus

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Ok.


Let me see if I understand you correctly: in sum, you seem to be implying that quantified information packets may theoretically be thought of as having originated from a divine source, rather instantly even, but we will not know that they derive and arrive to us from that divine source......

.... but instead of a Direct Realism of more Newtonian shades of causality, we might instead have a Quantum Realism with imminent shades of Hegelian realization (but without the Idealism). Or something along those lines?
Neither realism nor idealism work as metaphysics of quantum reality. That's why we must employ pneumatic hylomorphism where the manifestation of reality is conceptualized as a bidirectional, participatory-incarnational event: a transition from objective potentiality to classical actualization. This represents the ontic self-giving of the transcendent in which we participate, and it is essentially a theological concept with roots in Platonism.

Pneumatic hylomorphism is the view that quantum reality consists of matter as pure potentiality and form as an active, immanent principle, unified through pneuma, a subtle formative medium that allows quantum potentiality to incarnate as classical actuality.

Hylomorphism is Aristotle's doctrine that every physical object is a composite of matter (hyle) and form (morphe), where matter provides potentiality and form gives actuality and identity. Quantum hylomorphism updates this framework and applies it to quantum objects rather than to macroscopic entities such as horses and tables.
 
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Larniavc

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The forum seems to be populated, in no small measure, by individuals whose mental furnishings are distressingly sparse.
Maybe go to a forum where everyone already agrees with you? You might be better served than a place where people disagree with you.
 
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Pommer

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I could never quite grasp the Aristotelian concept of immanent form until I read Abraham P. Bos's book on Aristotelian pneuma as the carrier of form. That was when I realized this very idea could help solve a classic puzzle: what exactly is quantum reality, and what kind of existence are we actually dealing with?

I want to share a way of looking at this that fixes a major blank spot in the classic Copenhagen model, without getting stuck in the traps of modern realism. While the Copenhagen model is great because it doesn't treat quantum states like everyday classical objects, it doesn't really explain what is actually there. This lack of a solid philosophical foundation often makes it feel like a shallow tool, just a set of math equations for predicting things rather than a description of real life. Because of this, physicists and philosophers usually default to realist interpretations.

Rather than adopting such realist views, I suggest we look back to an old idea from Aristotle called hylomorphism (the pairing of matter and form), but complemented with the concept of pneuma. Think of pneuma as an active, subtle, and formative energy. In this pneumatic view, a quantum state isn't a physical particle or a wave travelling through space; it is pure, objective potential. Before we measure it, the quantum object is identical to the laws of physics themselves, existing as an un-incarnated, pneumatic logos. It only takes on classical, thing-like properties when it physically "incarnates" during measurement.

This pneumatic approach completely rules out the realist assumption that there is a pre-existing, definite classical past. Take John Wheeler's famous cosmic delayed-choice experiment. Realist thinking leads to the bizarre conclusion of retrocausality, making it seem like a measurement we make today can reach back billions of years to rewrite a photon's history. The pneumatic framework dissolves this paradox completely. The photon never needed to travel as a classical wave or particle in the first place; it was always an irreducibly quantum, pneumatic entity. Measurement is simply an "incarnation event" that makes things concrete in the present, meaning we don't need any time-traveling magic to explain it. Pneumatic quantum reality is primary, while wave and particle are merely secondary manifestations.

To see how we lost the ability to think this way, we have to look at how Western philosophy changed over time. Thinkers like Maximus Confessor (c. 580-662) understood the logoi as active, organizing principles existing right inside natural things. But when later medieval philosophy stripped these forms of their pneumatic carrier, nominalism took over, flattening everything into mere surface-level form. Eventually, this led to the modern view that order is just something our minds project onto the world. However, quantum physics has retroactively challenged this modern bias, proving that there is indeed a real, non-classical organizing principle operating inside nature, completely independent of our minds.

Ultimately, I see quantum measurement as a two-way street, a participatory event where pneumatic quantum reality and our human concepts meet. On a cosmic scale, this process is happening everywhere, all the time, through environmental and gravitational decoherence. Cosmic history is an ongoing, irreversible process of physical incarnation, moving from a unified, low-entropy quantum beginning to the highly differentiated classical world we see today. Read more about this on my retro nineties homepage: Pneumatic Hylomorphism and Quantum Philosophy: Retrieving the Logoi in the Copenhagen Model.
We’re “allowed” to not understand all of the workings of the Universe.
We are also allowed to have fun trying to figure out all of the workings of the universe, but should we ever succeed, we can be sure that we’ve “missed” something.
 
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Pommer

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The question of what quantum states are prior to measurement is not a physical question. Any attempt to say what they are is already metaphysics. Thus, we cannot avoid the philosophical implications of the physics itself. My argument uses a metaphysical framework drawn from Christian intellectual history to interpret the ontological status of quantum potentiality, which is precisely the kind of interpretive work every quantum interpretation already does.
Stuff “exists” because it exists, not because it’s observed to exist.
 
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Larniavc

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Pneumatic hylomorphism is the view that quantum reality consists of matter as pure potentiality and form as an active, immanent principle, unified through pneuma, a subtle formative medium that allows quantum potentiality to incarnate as classical actuality.
Evidence please.
 
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Pommer

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The forum seems to be populated, in no small measure, by individuals whose mental furnishings are distressingly sparse.
Oh, sorry to have disappointed you.
Where do you usually go to get good mental divans to lounge upon?
 
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Pommer

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Either way, we're not bone-headed light weights, and if you want to convince me of your thesis, I need to see your sources - HERE, not simply your premises.
Speak of thyself, sir!
 
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It is not pantheism, because pneuma does not denote the presence of the divine essence.
Sez you!
Before, oh, say, three-hundred years ago, if something “moved” it was either “alive” or it was moved by a force, an earthquake, perhaps, or, (much more commonly) the wind. The wind “brought” rains that grew the crops, it’d probably behoove one’s community to be in good with the god of wind. Pneuma has long been understood as a “pronoun” for God.
Rather, it signifies the active and formative power of the transcendent God, as in the theology of Maximus Confessor. From the standpoint of quantum physics, we need not derive the logoi from the divine Logos, as Maximus does, since physicists generally prefer to leave God outside the equation.
I don‘t need to know the phone number of the Watchmaker to tell the time.
You’re free to hunt it down, though, if you please.
 
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Teofrastus

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Stuff “exists” because it exists, not because it’s observed to exist.
Quantum physics complicates the picture. Only at the moment of detection do the complementary properties of a quantum object come into existence. The quantum object certainly exists before measurement, yet it does not possess the classical properties we normally associate with existence. It exists as a potentiality (potentia) rather than as a realized state. Even so, it is an objectively existing potentia.
 
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Pommer

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Quantum physics complicates the picture. Only at the moment of detection do the complementary properties of a quantum object come into existence. The quantum object certainly exists before measurement, yet it does not possess the classical properties we normally associate with existence. It exists as a potentiality (potentia) rather than as a realized state. Even so, it is an objectively existing potentia.
If there was only one observer then the quantum field wouldn’t need to exist throughout “creation” and everything would be set in place, including the spins/flavors of each quark.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Neither realism nor idealism work as metaphysics of quantum reality. That's why we must employ pneumatic hylomorphism where the manifestation of reality is conceptualized as a bidirectional, participatory-incarnational event: a transition from objective potentiality to classical actualization. This represents the ontic self-giving of the transcendent in which we participate, and it is essentially a theological concept with roots in Platonism.

Pneumatic hylomorphism is the view that quantum reality consists of matter as pure potentiality and form as an active, immanent principle, unified through pneuma, a subtle formative medium that allows quantum potentiality to incarnate as classical actuality.

Hylomorphism is Aristotle's doctrine that every physical object is a composite of matter (hyle) and form (morphe), where matter provides potentiality and form gives actuality and identity. Quantum hylomorphism updates this framework and applies it to quantum objects rather than to macroscopic entities such as horses and tables.

I understand what you're attempting to imply, but I've always had a very limited tolerance for much of ancient Greek philosophy that goes beyond basic logic. One reason this is the case is because Aristotle's use of hylomorphism also happened to play a role in his thinking as to why [he thought] people are born into various social classes: like slave. Or potentate king.

I just don't stomach the idea of a hylomorphic caste structure.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Speak of thyself, sir!

Just for the record, I assume the average human being has a least been blessed with some thinking power, which is one reason as an advocate for education I get a little put out when I see someone not using their God given potential of mind, whether they tow along a useless degree in hand or not. :cool:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Neither realism nor idealism work as metaphysics of quantum reality. That's why we must employ pneumatic hylomorphism where the manifestation of reality is conceptualized as a bidirectional, participatory-incarnational event: a transition from objective potentiality to classical actualization. This represents the ontic self-giving of the transcendent in which we participate, and it is essentially a theological concept with roots in Platonism.

Pneumatic hylomorphism is the view that quantum reality consists of matter as pure potentiality and form as an active, immanent principle, unified through pneuma, a subtle formative medium that allows quantum potentiality to incarnate as classical actuality.

Hylomorphism is Aristotle's doctrine that every physical object is a composite of matter (hyle) and form (morphe), where matter provides potentiality and form gives actuality and identity. Quantum hylomorphism updates this framework and applies it to quantum objects rather than to macroscopic entities such as horses and tables.

Secondly, I don't think it's clear that we can discern a special place for one of the three most competing interpretations of QM.

Although I could be wrong, yours seems to incorporate and assume a Bohmian interpretation rather than the Copenhagen or the Many Worlds.
 
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AV1611VET

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Just for the record, I assume the average human being has a least been blessed with some thinking power, which is one reason as an advocate for education I get a little put out when I see someone not using their God given potential of mind, whether they tow along a useless degree in hand or not. :cool:

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
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