One of the most confusing quotes of Jesus, IMO

You’re not off the rails,you’re just wondering a bout the meaning. We can’t get into heaven on our own. It comes from trusting God. Believing and trusting. If you have repented and believed then all your sins are forgiven and will stay forgiven. Christians have only to repent to be forgiven and the page is clean.

that scripture is talking about the judgment. Trusting and repentance are some of the few good things we can actually do. If you walk with God and get forgiven then God doesn’t hold the bad against you. But those who don’t repent are judged.

We are righteous when we repent. That’s what God sees. That’s what we are to Him. before Christ we are living a lifestyle of sin and continuing to do bad. When we become Christian’s the repenting and believing is the doing good that God says here. Or you could add gold silver and precious stones wood, hay , stubble by being a missionary, being in a ministry, leading people to the lord. God takes note of these things to give us a reward, but not judgment. But if you don’t believe and don’t do the first work that leads to all the rest, then you get judged for heaven or hell. Because even their good’ is done not for God but for themselves.

Not The One said:

The more I read the bible, the more "background knowledge" context is added to scripture I've read before. I came across one that stopped me cold, based on its context within the studying I've been doing lately, and the context of the scripture itself. It's John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ESV

Specifically, verse 29. These are the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. So, here's the problem: Everyone does both good and bad (evil). That makes this verse incredibly squishy. It causes people to wonder if they've done "enough" good, or "too much" bad. Yet the gospel says ALL have sinned... So that means NOBODY has "done good", or at least done "enough" good to receive the resurrection of life. Thanks be to the Lord for his plan. But I feel like this verse muddies the water for those of us who believe Jesus' sacrifice, not our "good works" is what brings us to the resurrection of life.

Can anyone offer some clarity about where I've gone off the rails here?

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" Good" is anyone covered by His Propitiation.

In a biblical context, it specifically refers to the turning away of God's wrath through the reassuring sacrifice of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, which satisfies divine justice and cleanses sin.

" Bad" are those who reject Him.

Be blessed.

Not The One said:

The more I read the bible, the more "background knowledge" context is added to scripture I've read before. I came across one that stopped me cold, based on its context within the studying I've been doing lately, and the context of the scripture itself. It's John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ESV

Specifically, verse 29. These are the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. So, here's the problem: Everyone does both good and bad (evil). That makes this verse incredibly squishy. It causes people to wonder if they've done "enough" good, or "too much" bad. Yet the gospel says ALL have sinned... So that means NOBODY has "done good", or at least done "enough" good to receive the resurrection of life. Thanks be to the Lord for his plan. But I feel like this verse muddies the water for those of us who believe Jesus' sacrifice, not our "good works" is what brings us to the resurrection of life.

Can anyone offer some clarity about where I've gone off the rails here?

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God's purpose with the gospel is NOT to leave us in our sins, that would be absurd. Jesus died for more than your forgiveness, but also for your restoration, your sanctification, for your change from sinfulness to holiness. Otherwise Christians could wantonly murder, commit adultery, steal, etc and expect to enter heaven. That passage would've caused exactly zero confusion for an early Christian.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Not The One said:

The more I read the bible, the more "background knowledge" context is added to scripture I've read before. I came across one that stopped me cold, based on its context within the studying I've been doing lately, and the context of the scripture itself. It's John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ESV

Specifically, verse 29. These are the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. So, here's the problem: Everyone does both good and bad (evil). That makes this verse incredibly squishy. It causes people to wonder if they've done "enough" good, or "too much" bad. Yet the gospel says ALL have sinned... So that means NOBODY has "done good", or at least done "enough" good to receive the resurrection of life. Thanks be to the Lord for his plan. But I feel like this verse muddies the water for those of us who believe Jesus' sacrifice, not our "good works" is what brings us to the resurrection of life.

Can anyone offer some clarity about where I've gone off the rails here?

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Your question is more hermeneutical and exegetical in nature and I think the answer to it comes in that when you read John 5:28-29, you should try to think of it as a single point on a web of overall meaning. The web in this case is everything stated within the Gospel of John.

In reading John 5:28-29, it seems fairly evident that Jesus' reported statement reflects certain nuances about belief and of what belief entails within John's theology as he writes his gospel. In this case, we might at the very least keep in mind all that comes in the texts in previous chapters leading up to John chapter 5. If we do that, it is rather observable that what Jesus is saying in the passage you're citing from John 5 is parallel and reflective of what we find Jesus also saying about belief in chapter 3.

What this means, in sum, is that "doing the good" which leads to salvation automatically reflects everything else written about the nature of belief within the Gospel of John, and we can see from the contexts of everything in John's 'web of meaning' that having authentic belief does require doing, but it doesn't depend on reaching God's perfection now in that doing. No, that perfection will be given to us later.

Not The One said:

My core concern regarding the question is this: The statement appears binary, but we all know that all people do both good and bad. It's like saying Fords go to north dakota and chevy's go to south dakota, but all cars have some of both brands. When you are talking about what people DO it gets hopelessly squishy, because all of us do both.

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I understand that, but when you reverse the question it gets even more untenable; can a person DO anything and still expect to enter heaven? The answer of the very early church was the opposite of yours. If a person were to engage in some grave, serious sin after conversion they were excluded from the Body, and considered to have been excluded from heaven, permanently. And this position is well enough supported by Scripture. The early Christians gave up much to become followers: positions, family, careers, often they're lives. They had turned away from sin and the world's "values" as they turned to God. It would only be later and after much controversy that it was understood that, with God's love and mercy and desire for all to be saved any sin at any time could be repented of, even though the church would impose very harsh penances on those who'd thus fallen away at that time.

So the early church faced this matter head on: yes, there are sins, as Galations 5 and 6 and Rev 21 and 22 make clear, that are so directly opposed to love of God and neighbor that they'll keep you from heaven, separating one from God all over again if persisted in, while there are much lighter sins that, while tending towards that death and separation, do not automatically "lead to death" (1 John 5). We will not be perfectly sinless in this life and yet that is the road-the Way- we must now be on, with God and towards holiness, to that holiness that comes only by virtue of being with Him, the branch now grafted into the Vine. That's why Jesus came, to restore peace between man and God, to establish the union with Him that man was made for-and that produces good fruit by its nature.

Not The One said:

Yes. That is why I said it is "squishy". Where does one draw the line? I think it depends on the individual. And that in itself is a problem.

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Well, that was the point: the line has to be drawn or else one must allow that murderers, rapists, thieves, adulterers et al should easily enter heaven. Scripture says otherwise, BTW.

And while it depends on the individual to some extent because we're judged in light of our knowledge and capabililtes, with varying degrees of maturity, intelligence, good or bad backgrounds and experiences, etc, there are basics that a person with a sound mind must adhere to. So the church, along with Scripture recognizes certain actions as being directly opposed to and destructive of love. Keep in mind that our union with/nearness to God, entered into via faith, is our salvation, and intrinsic to that nearness is holiness, to be like Him, even if that involves a process or journey. He'll judge us in the end-with how we've done with the gifts, whatever time, revelation, and grace, we've been given.

The bottom line is that it's critical that people are aware that, under the new covenant, what we DO still counts, as James in chapter 2 of his letter was trying to make clear. The real difference between the old and new covenants is that now we have the authentic means to actually accomplish it, under grace, by the Spirit, by the love He pours into our heart, Rom 5:5, in union with Christ, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', John 15:5.

Not The One said:

Thank you. I should mention that I'm a BIG Dr. Michael Heiser fan and in his naked bible podcast and his books and videos he constantly drills into you the importance of considering ALL of the contexts surrounding a scripture - the chapter, the book, even the culture within which it was written. It all plays into it. I did not do that here. But in fairness to me, I did it on purpose. I was curious about how others might see the contextual influences on the verse. And now it's time for ME to do the work!

Thanks for that response!

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Yes, the late Dr. Heiser was an interesting scholar and I've engaged some of his writing and source material over the years, but what I'm relating to you about the importance of interconnected contexts---some of which you seem to already be aware of--- is very common among the better scholars of Biblical Exegesis and Hermeneutics. So, I'm glad you're already in the know on that point.

But don't let this little verse or two in John bug you.

Not The One said:

The more I read the bible, the more "background knowledge" context is added to scripture I've read before. I came across one that stopped me cold, based on its context within the studying I've been doing lately, and the context of the scripture itself. It's John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ESV

Specifically, verse 29. These are the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. So, here's the problem: Everyone does both good and bad (evil). That makes this verse incredibly squishy. It causes people to wonder if they've done "enough" good, or "too much" bad. Yet the gospel says ALL have sinned... So that means NOBODY has "done good", or at least done "enough" good to receive the resurrection of life. Thanks be to the Lord for his plan. But I feel like this verse muddies the water for those of us who believe Jesus' sacrifice, not our "good works" is what brings us to the resurrection of life.

Can anyone offer some clarity about where I've gone off the rails here?

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It's simply talking about the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.

On the Last Day everyone will be raised and judged. This is the general resurrection of the dead.

It's not about having earned resurrection, all will experience resurrection; even as all will have to stand in judgment before the Lord.

Our salvation is not based on our earning it by our good works, it is the good gift and work of God in Christ. As such the Christian hope to be raised up is the hope of resurrection to new and eternal life, which is the promise in Christ by the grace of God received through faith.

Simultaneously Scripture speaks, frequently, of the role our works play in judgment. We will be judged for how we lived our lives.

This is because good works are not regarded, in Scripture, to be optional for the Christian life. Good works are to be the substance of the Christian life--this is why Ephesians 2:8-9 is followed by verse 10 which states that we were created for good works in Christ. When we hear the Gospel, believe; when we receive the precious gift of Holy Baptism, this is all pure grace which God uses to place us into Christ, to bring us into communion with Himself, that we should be regenerated, made new, and freely justified by God's grace through faith in Jesus. So that our salvation comes solely from God as pure gift.

But that doesn't mean we don't have to do good works. Because we do. Not to earn salvation, not to be justified before God. But because the renewed life is a life of good works and obedience to God, where before the unregenerate man could not obey God because he is a slave and captive to sin.

So, yes, absolutely--we are called to do good works, and we will be judged on the Last Day for how we lived our lives, especially how we treated "the least of these" as the Lord says in Matthew 25.

Our works cannot save us.
But our works will judge us.

So while no one can be good enough to earn eternal life. When we are raised up and brought before the Great Throne of Christ who judges the quick and the dead, how we lived does indeed matter.

It can be a difficult idea to grasp. Because if we are judged by our works, then doesn't that mean we are saved by our works? Scripture answers negative: Our works do not earn us any merit before the righteous and holy God of the Law, rather, the Law deems all our works as worthless and we ourselves as wretches who are altogether unclean and rotten to the core.

And yet we, who look solely to the grace and mercy of God in Christ who suffered and died for us, and who was raised that we might hope in the resurrection are nevertheless called to a life of struggle, of good works, and repentance. Not to earn, but because that is the shape of life a Christian is to have. The Christian is to live a cross-shaped life of humility, good works, in imitation of Christ who offered Himself for all. That is simply what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. And how we lived our lives actually does matter, not as a means of earning righteousness before God, but because how other people are treated actually matters to God. This isn't just a big game of chess where the pieces get reset at the end: this is the real world and there are real people and real lives. Real people who are really hungry, who really are poor, who really are suffering, and they really do need real food, they need real comfort, and they need real justice.

So we can't pretend as though this life doesn't matter and only the future life matters. Because how we live today plays a role in God's tomorrow. And if we lived lawless lives, even though claiming we believe, we will be called out for it on the Day we are judged. On the day we shall be judged, we will have to give answer to how we lived, to every word we said, every thought in our head, and every deed we've done--all the things we've done and all things we failed to do. Which is also why you can't trust in your good works to save you, you can only trust in the grace of God who loves you in Jesus Christ.

It would be easy enough to simply say, "Oh, my works help me get saved" because such is a natural thought of man in his sin, "I can do this" "I am capable".

It would also be easy enough to say, "I believe, and therefore I don't have to do anything" because, again, the natural inclination of man in his sin is selfish and lawless.

We aren't permitted either "safe" place. We are to always remember that our works mean nothing compared to God's righteousness and Law, because we are altogether sinful. We are also always to remember that the life of a faithful disciple is shaped by good works, not by simply claiming we have the right religious opinions or ideas. Holding both of these together, the Christian should always then fall before the Cross and cling to it, cleaving to Christ like a helpless infant clings to its mother, trusting only in Him, and confessing the Holy Gospel whereby it is only mercy that saves us; and with that: the Christian is one who is called to follow after Christ, to live as Christ, to walk in the newness of life which he has in Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, which he has received as a gift from God. In this way we can even count it all joy to experience suffering.

Not The One said:

For me, the line is "Accept Jesus free gift". And I mean sincerely. If they fail badly, they will just be the person described in 1 Cor 3:15.

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Okay, and it's best to know, of course, what that gift consists of, how faith enters into it, and what our obligations might be, if any.

But I can say with confidence that nowhere in the mind of Jesus, or Paul, or John, or Peter, or the early fathers et al was there even a hint of the idea of that gift being separable from man's obligation to be righteous and live accordingly. And nowhere was the idea that believers were absolutely guaranteed to obey either, even if, by and with grace, we certainly have the ability to do so.

So again, it's only good to know of that obligation, to have the full and correct understanding to the extent possible. Because already at the beginning there were people tending towards antinomianism because of a misguided understanding of their responsibilities and the role that faith played in their new relationship with God, and what their new freedom from the law meant. It certainly didn't mean freedom to sin in any case.

Not The One said:

The more I read the bible, the more "background knowledge" context is added to scripture I've read before. I came across one that stopped me cold, based on its context within the studying I've been doing lately, and the context of the scripture itself. It's John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ESV

Specifically, verse 29. These are the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. So, here's the problem: Everyone does both good and bad (evil). That makes this verse incredibly squishy. It causes people to wonder if they've done "enough" good, or "too much" bad. Yet the gospel says ALL have sinned... So that means NOBODY has "done good", or at least done "enough" good to receive the resurrection of life. Thanks be to the Lord for his plan. But I feel like this verse muddies the water for those of us who believe Jesus' sacrifice, not our "good works" is what brings us to the resurrection of life.

Can anyone offer some clarity about where I've gone off the rails here?

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I think the key is in the previous verses where Jesus is saying he has been given authority by God the father to heal and to judge sinners. In verse 14 it says about the person who was healed Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

Just like the adulterous women Jesus tells him to stop sinning. The true message was about salvation and though Christ could miraculously heal people it was for repentence and turning to God and obeying Him.

I think verse 24 also points to this as far as the resurrection of the dead. 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life".

Paul talks about this as well as living Christians. That we crucify the flesh and live in the spirit. By believing in the gospel we have eternal life in that Christs sacrifice defeated death and sin.

So its more about being born again in our nature than the judgement of sinners. All are sinners and come under Gods judgement. But those who are born again in Christ are no longer under the law and judgement.

Just like in this life we can be saved from death and sin and know Christs voice. So will the dead as Christs words are not just of this world but speak to the ultimate reality of Gods coming kingdom. Its more about the transformation from a sinner and being born again that will qualify us rather than the judgement of sin. One cannot exist in Gods kingdom unless they are born again.

Its interesting that the dead will know Christs voice. As though His words are not just of this world but penetrate beyond to our souls. Just like Christ said called Mary Magdalene by name and she immediately recognised Him by His voice rather than His physical outlook. Just like those in Christ can see and hear Christs truth while sinners are blind and cannot hear His voice.