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Do atheists constantly change the goalposts?

2PhiloVoid

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Oh good gravy people! I blink, and then everyone shows up to sound off like they're epistemological experts.....with no evidence to show for it.

People believe and disbelieve for all kinds of reasons, but "finding and having" faith in Christ has its own peculiar nuances that many folks tend to ignore. Or they just change the goalposts depending on how their misanthropic fits are flowing that day.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There's a difference in level of belief.

The people who went through a life-changing event and believed after that, have a hard and firm faith.

The vast, vast majority who believe without such a perspective changing event... don't really believe.

They either:
act like believers because they're forced to, attending mass/friday prayer/etc by force or coercion;

or they act like believers because they expect a profit. eg they heard that if they donate to the Red Cross/similar their donation will be returned tenfold by God (yes these people exist, I know a few personally). Or donations reduce the taxes they pay, bringing profit. Etc;

or they act like believers but their belief is extremely shallow. They only know that the priest says God exists and he's like really powerful. But if you talk to them about God, they'll ask dumb questions like, what's a prophet? What's a morningstar, do you mean the ancient mace weapon? What's omniscient, is that like a brand of medicine?

And when you ask any of them about their religious duties, how many poor they fed, what they've learnt from their holy book, they frown at you and dislike you. They go back to watching animes and listening to songs, or go back to working and hustling, or whatever mundane thing has taken their minds. Their only care in this world is their entertainment, their money, or other mundane things.

In short, they either don't believe, or their belief is super shallow. And this is the vast, vast majority of people.

There's also a minority who actively seeks God, without needing a personal miracle. They look at God's natural miracles. They look at the sun, the moon, and the stars, and wonder. They look at the differences in people and the way society works, and wonder. Etc. Their belief in God is always stronger and more solid.

Or did you think all believers are weighed equally? God created heaven and hell because some people truly deserve a heaven and some a hell. And the various lower heavens and hells for the rest of humanity.

The truth is people aren't on the same level. There are some who wouldn't pay a dollar for God, and there are some who would give more than their life just for God to love them.
(and there are some who would give the same for the opposite)

This is the reality of believers. You and me who care, we're actually minorities.

For the record, I'm not going to characterize my own Christian belief as a "hard and firm faith." I admittedly don't have that and I've never had that. But I think it's only concerning if we assume that some thing known and classified as "Christian belief" is some stark, emotionally laden, dichotomous state of 'either you were moved to it and have it, or you weren't and don't."

Am I a hypocrite or a heretic, or a failure in faith. I'm sure that on some level, I am.

But I think there's a lot more going on in the psychological formation of any person's Christian belief than many people recognize.

It's not a simple matter and never has been.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Maybe not the outer realities. But inwardly I think there's a place where they do generally agree. Places like learning to be a more human, Human Being for instance.
I don't know that that's a religious idea.
 
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I think these might also help in your search, if God wills it (though I think I am "not to be called teacher). I'm using the World English Bible (unless I have deviated from so doing against my present plan):

2 Corinthians 4:1-6 - Therefore, seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we don’t faint. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who are dying, in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we don’t preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake, seeing it is God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing.” Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe. For Jews ask for signs, Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God; because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brothers, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, and not many noble; but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world that he might put to shame the things that are strong. God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that don’t exist, that he might bring to nothing the things that exist, that no flesh should boast before God. Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He has taken the wise in their craftiness.”

(Aside: It seems to me that the Christian is to rely on a different wisdom and reasoning than an atheist of the world might.)

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 - We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown, yet a wisdom not of this world nor of the rulers of this world who are coming to nothing. But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except God’s Spirit. But we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.

James 3:17-18 - But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

In persuading the atheist, the following seems considerable:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 - The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, in gentleness correcting those who oppose him. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh good gravy people! I blink, and then everyone shows up to sound off like they're epistemological experts.....with no evidence to show for it.
At least they are thinking about what constitutes evidence or sufficient reason.
People believe and disbelieve for all kinds of reasons,
yep
but "finding and having" faith in Christ has its own peculiar nuances that many folks tend to ignore.
it has a particular st of evidence and claims, but so does any other thing of the sort
Or they just change the goalposts depending on how their misanthropic fits are flowing that day.
nah.
 
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Neogaia777

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I think these might also help in your search, if God wills it (though I think I am "not to be called teacher). I'm using the World English Bible (unless I have deviated from so doing against my present plan):

2 Corinthians 4:1-6 - Therefore, seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we don’t faint. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who are dying, in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we don’t preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake, seeing it is God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing.” Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe. For Jews ask for signs, Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God; because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brothers, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, and not many noble; but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world that he might put to shame the things that are strong. God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that don’t exist, that he might bring to nothing the things that exist, that no flesh should boast before God. Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He has taken the wise in their craftiness.”

(Aside: It seems to me that the Christian is to rely on a different wisdom and reasoning than an atheist of the world might.)

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 - We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown, yet a wisdom not of this world nor of the rulers of this world who are coming to nothing. But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except God’s Spirit. But we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.

James 3:17-18 - But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

In persuading the atheist, the following seems considerable:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 - The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, in gentleness correcting those who oppose him. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Those are excellent scriptures, thanks!

I have of course, heard them before, but it's always great to be reminded of them, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Hans Blaster

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There's also a minority who actively seeks God, without needing a personal miracle. They look at God's natural miracles. They look at the sun, the moon, and the stars, and wonder. They look at the differences in people and the way society works, and wonder. Etc. Their belief in God is always stronger and more solid.
They could just take a basic astronomy course. We know how those things form and how they are the way they are.
 
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Neogaia777

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To the non-believers on this forum, and anywhere on CF, etc.

I cannot prove to you that a God or any Gods/gods exist, or that Christianity (or Judaism) is true, or any of that right now currently, etc. But what I can do is prove to you an actual, real possibility as to how they actually can be, etc. And I can do this without contradicting logic, or anything else we have discovered and/or know right now currently. And I can almost 100% guarantee you that it will probably be very much more different than anything else you've heard up to this point right now currently, etc.

So if this has been your reason for not believing any of it up to this point, then I have something for you that you can maybe use probably.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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To the non-believers on this forum, and anywhere on CF, etc.

I cannot prove to you that a God or any Gods/gods exist, or that Christianity (or Judaism) is true, or any of that right now currently, etc. But what I can do is prove to you an actual, real possibility as to how they actually can be, etc. And I can do this without contradicting logic, or anything else we have discovered and/or know right now currently. And I can almost 100% guarantee you that it will probably be very much more different than anything else you've heard up to this point right now currently, etc.

So if this has been your reason for not believing any of it up to this point, then I have something for you that you can maybe use probably.

Take Care/God Bless.

For me, it is not enough with only a logically coherent and consistent concept. That is just a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.

The number of possible logically coherent and consistent concepts is only limited by the creativity of the presenter. Given enough time and the opportunity to make post hoc adjustments, all most any position can be massaged into being coherent and consistent (in so far anyone can check it).
 
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Neogaia777

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For me, it is not enough with only a logically coherent and consistent concept. That is just a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.

The number of possible logically coherent and consistent concepts is only limited by the creativity of the presenter. Given enough time and the opportunity to make post hoc adjustments, all most any position can be massaged into being coherent and consistent (in so far anyone can check it).
I can only tell you that it won't contradict anything else we right now know. And that it can stand up to any tests to try and disprove it as a possibilty based on what we right now know.

Take Care.
 
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Neogaia777

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Given enough time and the opportunity to make post hoc adjustments, all most any position can be massaged into being coherent and consistent (in so far anyone can check it).
And in my opinion, the above is not correct, etc. Not logically coherent and consistent anyway, etc.

If it takes that much massaging, then it's probably garbage, and most often can be easily proven to be not possible when compared to everything else we right now accept as fact (or pretty much fact) or right now know, etc. Mine doesn't have to do that or contradict that in order to be considered possible, etc.

In my opinion when someone else starts contradicting or directly going against other things that we have accepted as facts (or pretty much facts) or what we right now know, they can automatically be tossed out from being possibilities at that point, etc. Mine doesn't have that/those direct failing(s) yet, etc.

Take Care.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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I can only tell you that it won't contradict anything else we right now know. And that it can stand up to any tests to try and disprove it as a possibilty based on what we right now know.

Take Care.

What I'm trying to say is that for me it isn't enough to show it as a possibility, but it needs to be shown as an actuality.
 
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Neogaia777

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What I'm trying to say is that for me it isn't enough to show it as a possibility, but it needs to be shown as an actuality.
I get ya.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
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(Aside: It seems to me that the Christian is to rely on a different wisdom and reasoning than an atheist of the world might.)
I know.
Atheists don't believe in a higher power to help them when they need it. So you get capitalist and communist societies.
They don't believe there's a higher power to teach them anything. So they develop philosophy and science and all that BS.
They don't believe in a day of judgement where an omniscient entity judges them. So they don't mind stealing or lying if no one sees them.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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At least they are thinking about what constitutes evidence or sufficient reason.
That's not good enough, and as a Philosopher, I'm going to point out very specifically that "thinking about something" isn't the same as applying critical thinking on an academic level. The difference between these two cognitive activities matters..............................

On the other hand, I will at least tip my hat to your stated notion that where individual effort is being put into one's appraisal of "sufficient reasons," each person is taking on what is otherwise a subjective, not an objective, endeavor where belief in the constituent concepts and evidences of the Christian faith are being evaluated.
yep

it has a particular st of evidence and claims, but so does any other thing of the sort
No, "having faith in God/Christ" in the New Testament, Christian sense is a different epistemological state of belief than what you're suggesting. Conceptually, the ontological nature of the epistemological claims themselves, apart from the evidences, are different than other sets of evidences and claims (like the sets that go into each specific field of science).

But I don't expect you to take my word for it. I also don't expect you to research it either since this area of study is one that you're admittedly apathetic about. So, I don't expect you to get up to speed on it any time soon.

But I'm right about this philosophical area of analysis regarding the nature of Christian faith and that's all there is to it.

Some of them do, Hans. Some of them do.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Hans Blaster

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That's not good enough, and as a Philosopher, I'm going to point out very specifically that "thinking about something" isn't the same as applying critical thinking on an academic level. The difference between these two cognitive activities matters..............................
Is philosophy only for academics? If so you should be posting below all attempts that it is forbidden here in the non-academic site.
On the other hand, I will at least tip my hat to your stated notion that where individual effort is being put into one's appraisal of "sufficient reasons," each person is taking on what is otherwise a subjective, not an objective, endeavor where belief in the constituent concepts and evidences of the Christian faith are being evaluated.
Oh, maybe we can...
No, "having faith in God/Christ" in the New Testament, Christian sense is a different epistemological state of belief than what you're suggesting. Conceptually, the ontological nature of the epistemological claims themselves, apart from the evidences, are different than other sets of evidences and claims (like the sets that go into each specific field of science).

But I don't expect you to take my word for it.
Ah, the George Michael claim...

"You gotta have faith, faith, oh gotta have faith.."
I also don't expect you to research it either since this area of study is one that you're admittedly apathetic about. So, I don't expect you to get up to speed on it any time soon.

But I'm right about this philosophical area of analysis regarding the nature of Christian faith and that's all there is to it.
That is some world class cope you have there.
Some of them do, Hans. Some of them do.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is philosophy only for academics? If so you should be posting below all attempts that it is forbidden here in the non-academic site.
Philosophy (which comprises the wide bastions of everything pertaining to Logic, Epistemology, Ontology/Metaphysics, Aesthetics, and Ethics) is everyone's public business. However, the question is: do we want to be good, effective Critical Thinkers, or lousy ones?

I think you and I both prefer good and effective over lousy on any given day.
Oh, maybe we can...
Only partially, but I'm not going to place folks like W.K. Clifford on an epistemological pedestal. In fact, I torpedoed his boat long ago.
Ah, the George Michael claim... "You gotta have faith, faith, oh gotta have faith.."

Uh, no......... I mean something other than the usual mumbo jumbo definition of "faith" so often trotted out by both a select slice of hyper-fundamentalistic Christians and a typical set of trollish atheists.

No one just decides to "have faith." It doesn't work like that------and that's the point.
That is some world class cope you have there.

Oh, it's not coping, Hans. It's called 'education.' And if people want to slap me with a label of "narcissistic" for my having said so, they can do so if they want. Like yourself, I'm not a believer in false humility or of self-deprecation where fault lines aren't actually present.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Philosophy (which comprises the wide bastions of everything pertaining to Logic, Epistemology, Ontology/Metaphysics, Aesthetics, and Ethics) is everyone's public business. However, the question is: do we want to be good, effective Critical Thinkers, or lousy ones?

I think you and I both prefer good and effective over lousy on any given day.
Agreed.
Only partially, but I'm not going to place folks like W.K. Clifford on an epistemological pedestal. In fact, I torpedoed his boat long ago.
I am not familiar with your interaction with that poster.
Uh, no......... I mean something other than the usual mumbo jumbo definition of "faith" so often trotted out by both a select slice of hyper-fundamentalistic Christians and a typical set of trollish atheists.
You were putting justification for religion (and it would seem your own) in a special "epistemological category". It has nothing to do with fundamentalists or atheists.
No one just decides to "have faith." It doesn't work like that------and that's the point.
Of course you can't "decide" to have faith. I neither chose to believe or later to not believe. I believed because it was presented by the people I trusted most. I stopped believing because I was shown how just like any other human activity my religion was in its origin. Nothing special. And this last bit goes to my point... if you can't demonstrate something beyond normal human actions in these religious claims, why should anyone believe them to be beyond normal human experiences.
Oh, it's not coping, Hans. It's called 'education.' And if people want to slap me with a label of "narcissistic" for my having said so, they can do so if they want. Like yourself, I'm not a believer in false humility or of self-deprecation where fault lines aren't actually present.
Your "special philosophical training" in how religion be special? Either it is something you haven't shown, or it is ... well ... I already said it.
 
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