Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Jan001 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Abraham retained his righteousness by agreeing to sacrifice his son in obedience to God's command.

Genesis 22:2-13
Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

A New Dawn said:
I believe you are in error in your statement that the fact the question was asked by a sinner doesn’t change [that there is a condition]. I beg to differ in that sinners, have no understanding of God or the ability to seek Him to know which questions to ask.

If that was true, then why is it that God reaches out all day long to sinners then (Romans 10:21)? And if that was true, why is it that Paul spent multiple days trying to persuade sinners to believe the gospel (Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-4, Acts 28:23). You make a mockery of God Himself and of people like Paul for making continual efforts to persuade people to believe by saying that faith just happens in an instant when God regenerates someone, making God reaching out to sinners all day long and Paul spending multiple days persuading people to believe completely pointless.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

Jan001 said:
Abraham retained his righteousness by agreeing to sacrifice his son in obedience to God's command.

Genesis 22:2-13
Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Are you disagreeing with what I was saying? Of course, our works will reflect what kind of faith we have (true, genuine faith is such that we desire to submit to God and serve Him), but we cannot earn our salvation by works, as scripture clearly says. Otherwise, we could boast of saving ourselves. Do you understand the difference between doing works that reflect our faith in contrast to doing works in an effort to save ourselves or retain our salvation?

Jan001 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you disagreeing with what I was saying? Of course, our works will reflect what kind of faith we have (true, genuine faith is such that we desire to submit to God and serve Him), but we cannot earn our salvation by works, as scripture clearly says. Otherwise, we could boast of saving ourselves. Do you understand the difference between doing works that reflect our faith in contrast to doing works in an effort to save ourselves or retain our salvation?

If Abraham had refused to obey God, he would have lost his righteousness through disobedience. We are justified by both our faith and works, not by our faith only. Both are necessary if we want to inherit eternal life.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

James 2:19-24
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

If Abraham had chosen his son over God's command, he would have committed idolatry. Luke 14:26

A New Dawn · Jul 9, 2026

LeafByNiggle said:
..nor does any mere human, saved or not, have understanding of God. Anyone who claims they understand God is just boasting.

That is a postulate, not a theorem. It cannot be proven. It can only be assumed, as can the contrary position, that everyone has the ability to seek Him, but only some choose to do so.

Yes, all that is true. But the analysis which follows is again just an assumption:

..or, as just as likely, the man left because his desires for material wealth, driven by his free will, were greater than his desire, also driven by free will, to love God. See, I can make up unproven assumptions too.

Now that is absolutely true! But what is not true is that God preparing the way ensures one will choose to walk that way.

Also very true, but it does not prove unconditional election.

Everything you say is just a postulate, also. However, the scriptures do say, in three places, that there is NONE who seek God, which means, by default, that God must seek us and make the first move. And if God makes the first move, to turn our hearts to Himself, He also turns our wills to himself, and then when we actually have the ability to respond to Him, we agree that His will is what we want to align our wills to, and so we desire to follow Him. If God does not turn our hearts to himself, then we can’t want what He wants or choose to follow him anywhere. We still have a heart of stone. It is either all one way or all the other. Jesus clearly said that of all God has given Him to save, He will lose none. It is only those with a heart of stone that “freely” choose not to follow because they are choosing from a fallen nature and have no desire to follow. The desire to follow comes from being redeemed.

A New Dawn · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
It comes from repeated twisting of the Bible.

You have shown NOTHING except for a severe lack of spiritual discernment concerning the things we're talking about. And I'm ignoring nothing. You are the one cherry picking scriptures while either ignoring, twisting or brushing other scriptures under the rug.

This is why nobody wants to talk to you. Because you get belligerent and aggressive when anyone counters your unbiblical theology.

A New Dawn · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

This is what happened with the fall. That’s why we are depraved. The evidences of God are all around us, but because of sin entering the world our hearts became hardened. Ever since then, man has been totally depraved UNLESS GOD STEPS IN AND CHANGES OUR HEART. What does it say why God told Noah to build an ark?

Genesis 6:5-7 (NASB95)
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Spiritual Jew said:
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Jesus referred to "the righteous" as "those who are well" and to sinners as "those who are sick". How can you read this and try to tell me that Jesus never said that sinners are spiritually sick? He most certainly did! As anyone reading this without doctrinal bias can clearly see!

Sorry, you are wrong. Still an analogy.

Spiritual Jew said:
LOL. Describing sinners as being dead in sins is an ANALOGY as well. But, it is never compared to being like a physical corpse as Calvinism falsely teaches.

You are still wrong. The fact that you cannot see is because you want to cling to something you have created out of thin air because there is no biblical support for it.

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you not understand that He was talking about Himself there? He is a physician in a spiritual sense and He heals people who are spiritually sick by offering them spiritual healing. How can you not understand this?

Goodness gracious. He was clearly relating His mission to save sinners to a physician healing the sick. That means He was seeing Himself as being a physician in a spiritual sense and as being the One who heals those who are spiritually sick. How can you not see that? It's clear as day. I'm not conflating anything.

Yes, he was talking about himself as SAVIOR. Not as a physician there to heal someone.

A New Dawn · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
If that was true, then why is it that God reaches out all day long to sinners then (Romans 10:21)? And if that was true, why is it that Paul spent multiple days trying to persuade sinners to believe the gospel (Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-4, Acts 28:23). You make a mockery of God Himself and of people like Paul for making continual efforts to persuade people to believe by saying that faith just happens in an instant when God regenerates someone, making God reaching out to sinners all day long and Paul spending multiple days persuading people to believe completely pointless.

I am not going to rehash this over and over with you. Salvation happens on GOD’s time. Salvation is GOD’s, from beginning to end, from start to finish. If God wants you saved, you are saved, and you’ll agree with him every step of the way once He has changed your heart. Only those who are not His believe they have the ability to turn away, and they do, because they aren’t God’s anyway.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

Jan001 said:
If Abraham had refused to obey God, he would have lost his righteousness through disobedience. We are justified by both our faith and works, not by our faith only. Both are necessary if we want to inherit eternal life.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

James 2:19-24
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

If Abraham had chosen his son over God's command, he would have committed idolatry. Luke 14:26

None of this answers the question I asked you. I asked if you understand the difference between doing works that reflect our faith in contrast to doing works in an effort to save ourselves or retain our salvation? Do you feel pressure to perform well enough to retain your salvation as if it's based on your own performance or is your focus instead on continuing to trust in Christ while submitting to Him and allowing Him to work through you?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

A New Dawn said:
This is why nobody wants to talk to you. Because you get belligerent and aggressive when anyone counters your unbiblical theology.

Look in the mirror. Look at your own belligerence and aggressiveness towards Jan001, especially. Why are you such a hypocrite? Calvinists don't want to talk to me because they know they can't refute my arguments. I bring up things that are not on their ready made script to respond to and they are not able to go off script. You prove that with your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that Jesus referred to sinners as being spiritually sick in contrast to the righteous who are spiritually well. When you Calvinists are not able to bully someone like you try to do with Jan001, you don't know what to do with yourselves. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. How about you stop dishing it out then?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

A New Dawn said:
This is what happened with the fall. That’s why we are depraved.

What are you talking about? Romans 1:18-32 is not about Adam and Eve. Why are you not willing to address what Romans 1:18-32 indicates, which is that some people BECOME depraved after God gives them over to a depraved mind because of having repeatedly suppressed the truth in wickedness while refusing to glorify God and be thankful to Him.

A New Dawn said:
The evidences of God are all around us, but because of sin entering the world our hearts became hardened. Ever since then, man has been totally depraved UNLESS GOD STEPS IN AND CHANGES OUR HEART.

Nowhere does scripture teach this. You are just brushing Romans 1:18-32 under the rug because it doesn't fit your doctrine. This cherry picking method of interpretation that you have is unacceptable.

A New Dawn said:
What does it say why God told Noah to build an ark?

Genesis 6:5-7 (NASB95)
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

That was in Noah's day, of course. What is your point? Why did the wickedness of man in that time period make God regretful that He had created man and make Him angry and destroy them if they had no choice but to be totally depraved? You need to be able to explain that. It only makes sense for God to be regretful and angry about it if man had free will with the ability to choose what was right and chose what was evil instead. Noah and his family chose what was right. It never says that they had to be regenerated in order for that to be the case.

A New Dawn said:
Sorry, you are wrong. Still an analogy.

How do you think that it means anything for you to just say I'm wrong? You need to be able to back that up if you want to be taken seriously. Should I just say that you're wrong about your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins because it's an analogy? Would you find that to be acceptable? I'm sure you wouldn't. Jesus clearly indicated that the righteous are spiritually well and He does not need to call them to repentance, but sinners are spiritually unwell/sick and He calls them to repentance. You think He calls them to do what they are unable to do. And you think you're right? Your view makes no sense at all.

A New Dawn said:
You are still wrong. The fact that you cannot see is because you want to cling to something you have created out of thin air because there is no biblical support for it.

You are proving you have no answers for what I'm saying, but you just don't want to admit it. You're very stubborn.

A New Dawn said:
Yes, he was talking about himself as SAVIOR. Not as a physician there to heal someone.

Do you not think He spiritually heals people when He forgives their sins by way of His shed blood? By His stripes we are spiritually healed, as it says in Isaiah 53:5 and is quoted in 1 Peter 2:24. Do you somehow not know that?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2026

A New Dawn said:
I am not going to rehash this over and over with you. Salvation happens on GOD’s time. Salvation is GOD’s, from beginning to end, from start to finish. If God wants you saved, you are saved, and you’ll agree with him every step of the way once He has changed your heart. Only those who are not His believe they have the ability to turn away, and they do, because they aren’t God’s anyway.

Tell me why God is angry with those who rebel and are unrepentant and why He punishes those who repeatedly refuse to repent if they are unable to do so? Give me a reasonable explanation for that if you want me to take you seriously.

Imagine God getting angry with someone for not being able to lift a tank over their head or for not being able to run 1,000 miles per hour. Would you think that makes any sense?

Jan001 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
None of this answers the question I asked you. I asked if you understand the difference between doing works that reflect our faith in contrast to doing works in an effort to save ourselves or retain our salvation? Do you feel pressure to perform well enough to retain your salvation as if it's based on your own performance or is your focus instead on continuing to trust in Christ while submitting to Him and allowing Him to work through youobey him.

Retaining my salvation is NOT solely based on my performance. God's grace is what saves me. He has criteria by which he judges me worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:17

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

I trust in God and cooperate with his grace, which enables me to continue to obey him.

If a Christian claims to have faith in God but doesn't do the good works God has prepared for him to do, will he still inherit eternal life? Matthew 25:31-46

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

I want to hear this at my judgment:

Matthew 25:21
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

A New Dawn · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Tell me why God is angry with those who rebel and are unrepentant and why He punishes those who repeatedly refuse to repent if they are unable to do so? Give me a reasonable explanation for that if you want me to take you seriously.

Imagine God getting angry with someone for not being able to lift a tank over their head or for not being able to run 1,000 miles per hour. Would you think that makes any sense?

Have you read any of the Bible? The whole OT is God being mad at His own chosen people. I don’t know why because God’s ways are not our ways, but I choose to believe that when God said that, from the very fall of man, only evil proceeds from our hearts without His intervention. I happen to believe what God says. I’m sorry that some people feel the need to create a god in their own image because they don’t understand the God of the Bible.

But what I believe about it (and I know it will send you into another rant), is that God placed His fingerprints all over creation and blesses mankind with common grace enough for man to know there really is a god who created the world, even with a hardened heart, and so holds them responsible.

Brightfame52 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
That's what I've been discussing, but you run away from every argument that you have no answer for instead of just acknowledging the holes in your doctrine.

You just want to argue

Brightfame52 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Look at you running away from a challenge yet again. You want me to do all the work for you. You already know how I interpret the passage (Acts 16:30-31). The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he himself had to do to be saved and they told him what he had to do was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". That was his responsibility. And they said that was true of everyone in his household as well.

Okay, now it's your turn. Tell me how you interpret Acts 16:30-31.

See you make a unfounded comment about a scripture and then want me to labour on it, and you aint did nothing

Brightfame52 · Jul 9, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you even reading the text?

Yeah, I have read that text 1000 times. You cant explain it. All you can do is cherry pick it.

Brightfame52 · Jul 9, 2026

LeafByNiggle said:
It was to a condition. The fact that the question was asked by a sinner who truly desired salvation doesn't change that. And this verse said nothing about what Jesus has accomplished for us or who He is. That appears elsewhere, but this verse goes first and foremost to what a person must DO to be saved.

There are no conditions, the newly awakened jailor may have thought so, we are all legalistic by nature, Paul would explain grace to him in vs 32 and if he believed after that, that would be evidence he was saved. A person must be saved before they can believe in the Lord.

LeafByNiggle · Jul 9, 2026

A New Dawn said:
Everything you say is just a postulate, also. However, the scriptures do say, in three places, that there is NONE who seek God..

That does not mean what you think it means. Cite the verses and we can see.

A New Dawn said:
Jesus clearly said that of all God has given Him to save, He will lose none.

that also does not mean what you think it means. In particular, it is consistent with free will. The question reduces to how God selects those "given" to Jesus—whether it is through specific divine and unconditional election or based on God's foreknowledge of those who will freely choose to believe (where choosing to believe in Him is the condition for salvation). The verse in question ("What must I do to be saved?...) suggests the latter.

A New Dawn said:
It is only those with a heart of stone that “freely” choose not to follow because they are choosing from a fallen nature...

But we all have a fallen nature. But even with a fallen nature, it is possible to act in a manner pleasing to God.

A New Dawn said:
...and have no desire to follow.

They all have that desire to be drawn to God, but due to our fallen nature, we have other desires that compete with our natural God-given desire for Him. Some choose to give in those desires and some do not.

I'm not saying that unconditional election is provably false. I'm saying that it is on equal footing with free will in that both of them are assumptions that are consistent with Scripture to the same extent that Scripture is consistent with itself.

A New Dawn said:
The desire to follow comes from being redeemed.

Just another way of restating the basic assumption about unconditional election. Restating a premise using different words does not constitute a proof of that premise.

LeafByNiggle · Jul 9, 2026

Brightfame52 said:
There are no conditions, the newly awakened jailor may have thought so, we are all legalistic by nature, Paul would explain grace to him in vs 32 and if he believed after that, that would be evidence he was saved. A person must be saved before they can believe in the Lord.

"If he believed"? That would evidence? Evidence is something that can be objectively determined. But whether someone has real belief or fake belief is not something that can be determined objectively.

Remember the disciples who left Jesus in John 6 in the Bread of Life discourse? They thought they believed, but something caused them to stop believing in Jesus and walk away. The unconditional election position would be that they never believed in the first place, and the real believe can never be lost. But that is just an application of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy, where the truth of a label is determined on an ad hoc basis in order to satisfy some statement about that label. In the case of "No True Scotsman", that statement was "No True Scotsman would do such a thing." In the case of the present discussion, the statement is "No real belief in Jesus can ever be lost." Unless there is some way to determine if one has real belief in Jesus other than the fact that they didn't lose it, that statement has no meaning.

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