Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Brightfame52 said:

Nothing said about responsibility here. So you explain it

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Look at you running away from a challenge yet again. You want me to do all the work for you. You already know how I interpret the passage (Acts 16:30-31). The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he himself had to do to be saved and they told him what he had to do was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". That was his responsibility. And they said that was true of everyone in his household as well.

Okay, now it's your turn. Tell me how you interpret Acts 16:30-31.

LeafByNiggle said:

The question itself implies responsibility. "What must I do to be saved?" If unconditional election were true, the only correct answer would have been "There is nothing you can do to be saved." Instead the answer given actually specifies a condition.

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Exactly right. And Calvinists do everything they possibly can to try to get around this. They never acknowledge how passages like that destroy the doctrine of unconditional election. It's sad to witness when they try to deny what is shown in plain, straightforward scriptures like Acts 16:30-31.

Brightfame52 said:

No it doesnt, its just a question, concern about his condition.

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Are you even reading the text? Why are you not willing to address what the text actually indicates? It's not a question about his condition. Not even close. He asked Paul and Silar what he was required to do to be saved. Can you admit that you would not answer that question the same way that Paul and Silas did? They told him what he had to do to be saved was to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". And they said that was true for eveyrone in his household, also. That implies that he, and everyone else in his household, were able to put their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

If you were asked that question, what would you tell someone? You couldn't tell them that what they need to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You don't believe that anyone can do so unless they are given faith. You would need to tell them that there is nothing they can do to be saved except to wait and see if they are ever lucky enough to receive repentance and faith unto salvation.

Brightfame52 said:

Besides, now was the opportunity for the Apostle to explain the Gospel, at which time truths like election of grace, and who Christ is, what He has done, for whom He done it.

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They told the person what he had to do to be saved. They didn't have to go into a long spiel first before he could understand the simple gospel. Doctrine is something you learn after you become saved, not in order to become saved.

Neogaia777 said:

God cannot require perfection from all of us, or none of us would make it in, and there would have also been no point to Jesus dying for our sins, but I also don't think he can let all sins slide for everybody either, so individual judgement is going to be somewhere in-between probably, and might not be exactly the same for each individual person, since some of us are more or less capable in different areas, and only God knows what those are, etc, which leaves us right now not knowing what it is going to be, etc.

God Bless.

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@Jan001 (and others also)

I tell people that doing anything that the Bible says is evil, or wrong, or is a sin, etc, can be a possible risk to your salvation maybe, and do you really be wanting to take risks with that, etc? I can't tell you for absolutely sure, because nobody knows for absolutely sure, but I can say that they can be a possible risk possibly, etc. But if you don't have Jesus, then you'll probably be judged by a standard of 100% absolute perfection, of which none will make it, if they don't have Jesus, etc.

God Bless.

A New Dawn said:

Yes, one must have faith, but God bestows the gift of faith on us when he makes us His own. So, there is still nothing WE have to do for salvation.

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You are blatantly contradicting what is indicated in Acts 16:30-31. The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he himself had to do to be saved. They didn't say there was nothing he had to do. They said he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved and that was true of everyone else in his household as well.

If someone asked you what he or she had to do to be saved, what would you tell them?

A New Dawn said:

We DO follow His commands as a reflection of His love for us, because He asked us to, and to grow in Him, but that comes after justification. Not prior to it because the scriptures are clear that we cannot do anything to earn salvation. If we could, Christ’s sacrifice would have been in vain.

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It's not about earning salvation. That's where you go astray. Nowhere does scripture teach that we could boast of earning our own salvation by way of our faith. It only says that about works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-5), which scripture contrasts with faith. Faith and repentance go hand in hand and that involves someone humbling themselves and acknowledging that they can't save themselves and are sinners in need of God's mercy, like Jesus described in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14. Why would someone try to boast of earning their salvation after having humbled themselves while admitting that they can't save themselves and are sinners in need of God's mercy? They wouldn't.

Neogaia777 said:

@Jan001 (and others also)

I tell people that doing anything that the Bible says is evil, or wrong, or is a sin, etc, can be a possible risk to your salvation maybe, and do you really be wanting to take risks with that, etc? I can't tell you for absolutely sure, because nobody knows for absolutely sure, but I can say that they can be a possible risk possibly, etc. But if you don't have Jesus, then you'll probably be judged by a standard of 100% absolute perfection, of which none will make it, if they don't have Jesus, etc.

God Bless.

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I don't believe in conquering sins in your own strength alone, and often think they are as filthy rags to God, etc. And often more often than not, people who conquer sins in their own strength that can be seen easily, often just trade them for other sins that can't be seen so easily when they do it all in their own strength, so there's that, etc. Ultimately, I think we all have to try and do our best to be better humans, and make sure that's always being done with God's help ultimately, etc. Other than that, all sin can be possible risk to your salvation, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

I don't believe in conquering sins in your own strength alone, and often think they are as filthy rags to God, etc. And often more often than not, people who conquer sins in their own strength that can be seen easily, often just trade them for other sins that can't be seen so easily when they do it all in their own strength, so there's that, etc. Ultimately, I think we all have to try and do our best to be better humans, and make sure that's always being done with God's help ultimately, etc. Other than that, all sin can be possible risk to your salvation, etc.

God Bless.

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This is how we can conquer our illicit passions:

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

A New Dawn said:

Yes, one must have faith, but God bestows the gift of faith on us when he makes us His own. So, there is still nothing WE have to do for salvation.

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Then why did the Apostle say there was something to do? Not only that, he specified what that something is.

A New Dawn said:

We DO follow His commands as a reflection of His love for us, because He asked us to, and to grow in Him, but that comes after justification.

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That is a postulate, not a theorem. That is, you can assume we only do the right thing after God chooses us for justification. But there is no way to prove from the words of Jesus and the Apostles that God doesn't justify us after we have chosen to do His will. In fact the Bible verse quoted earlier ("What must I do to be saved?...") suggests we must do something first.

A New Dawn said:

Not prior to it because the scriptures are clear that we cannot do anything to earn salvation.

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That is not the same thing. The Scriptures are clear that we cannot do anything to earn salvation, but that does not mean that there isn't something we must do to be saved. Here is an analogy using ordinary people. A man is trapped in a deep well and is unable to climb out. Another man is at the top who is unable to lift the first man out because he is out of reach. But the man at the top does have a length of rope which he lowers down into the well. The man at the bottom grabs ties the rope around his waist and the the man at the top then lifts him out. The question is, did the man at the bottom save himself? Or did the man at the top save him? The answer is they needed both the willingness of the man with the rope and the willingness of the man in the well. The man in the well did not "earn" his physical salvation. But he did have to cooperate.

That analogy does not quite represent the relationship between God and Man because God is able to do all things, including save someone who does not cooperate. But the evidence in Scripture is that God does not do that. For His own reasons, which we can never know for certain, God desires that we do cooperate and choose to serve Him out of love. But love is a choice. Love that is imposed is not love, as we know from all the stories about love potions. In those works of imagination, the story never turns out well. Stories reveal a truth that we know intuitively - that love that is imposed - whether by a magic potion or by God's imposition on those He choses, is not real love.

A New Dawn said:

If we could, Christ’s sacrifice would have been in vain.

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Brightfame52 said:

There was no requirements or conditions, you have an spiritually awaken sinner, inquiring about salvation. This was an opportunity for the Apostle to teach the word of the Lord. Who Jesus is, what He accomplished and for who.

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It was to a condition. The fact that the question was asked by a sinner who truly desired salvation doesn't change that. And this verse said nothing about what Jesus has accomplished for us or who He is. That appears elsewhere, but this verse goes first and foremost to what a person must DO to be saved.

LeafByNiggle said:

It was to a condition. The fact that the question was asked by a sinner who truly desired salvation doesn't change that. And this verse said nothing about what Jesus has accomplished for us or who He is. That appears elsewhere, but this verse goes first and foremost to what a person must DO to be saved.

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I believe you are in error in your statement that the fact the question was asked by a sinner doesn’t change [that there is a condition]. I beg to differ in that sinners, have no understanding of God or the ability to seek Him to know which questions to ask. In that passage with the rich young ruler, Jesus gave two answers. The first was to follow all the laws (and although the man said he does that we know nobody can follow the law perfectly), so Jesus, knowing the man’s heart told him a different answer, to sell all that he has and follow Him, and the man loved his money more than he loved God, and left dejected. The man left unsaved because he had a heart of stone that had not been turned to God (by God). God had not changed his heart so that his nature was in agreement with God’s nature. And that is the way it is with all men. Without God going and preparing the way, none of us would turn to God. Only God knows our hearts and what sins we love more than Him.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are blatantly contradicting what is indicated in Acts 16:30-31. The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he himself had to do to be saved. They didn't say there was nothing he had to do. They said he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved and that was true of everyone else in his household as well.

If someone asked you what he or she had to do to be saved, what would you tell them?


It's not about earning salvation. That's where you go astray. Nowhere does scripture teach that we could boast of earning our own salvation by way of our faith. It only says that about works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-5), which scripture contrasts with faith. Faith and repentance go hand in hand and that involves someone humbling themselves and acknowledging that they can't save themselves and are sinners in need of God's mercy, like Jesus described in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14. Why would someone try to boast of earning their salvation after having humbled themselves while admitting that they can't save themselves and are sinners in need of God's mercy? They wouldn't.

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Our faith is a gift from God so that we can’t boast in our own salvation, according to Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB95)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul specifically points out that our faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God, not something we have to produce on our own so that we cannot boast of our own salvation.

You always read into scripture what you think it means instead of reading it for what it says. You ASSUME that when people are told to believe on Him to be saved that that means that they have to come up with saving faith on their own, which is impossible, and is why God grants us saving faith.

Spiritual Jew said:

Your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins is flawed. It means to be separated from God because of your sins and has nothing to do with one's ability or inability to repent.

Read Romans 1:18-32. People are not born totally depraved as you imagine. They only become that way after repeatedly suppressing the truth in wickedness. And they have no excuse for that. But, your doctrine gives them an excuse.

Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick and in need of a physician (Him) and He calls them to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. You say He calls them to do something that they are unable to do unless He causes them to do it, which is complete nonsense.



Yes, that's what you do.


What a lie. They absolutely do. Why is it that you're not interested in honest discussion? It seems that you just believe what you want to believe regardless of what scripture teaches.


I couldn't care less what you false teachers think. All of you Calvinists are wrong. You are blinded by your false doctrine.

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I’m sorry, but Romans 1:18-32 is the very description of total depravity.

Jesus NEVER said that sinners were spiritually sick. AGAIN, that is something YOU read into the scripture. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees when he says that after they asked him why he hangs out with sinners, and Jesus responds with an ANALOGY. An analogy is a method of comparison where two DIFFERENT things are compared to clarify or explain a concept. Jesus is not a physician and sinners are not spiritually sick. A sick person goes to a physician to be healed, sinners need a savior to be saved. Jesus’ mission was to save sinners. You are purposely conflating the example with Jesus stated mission.

Spiritual Jew said:

Your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins is flawed. It means to be separated from God because of your sins and has nothing to do with one's ability or inability to repent.

Read Romans 1:18-32. People are not born totally depraved as you imagine. They only become that way after repeatedly suppressing the truth in wickedness. And they have no excuse for that. But, your doctrine gives them an excuse.

Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick and in need of a physician (Him) and He calls them to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. You say He calls them to do something that they are unable to do unless He causes them to do it, which is complete nonsense.



Yes, that's what you do.


What a lie. They absolutely do. Why is it that you're not interested in honest discussion? It seems that you just believe what you want to believe regardless of what scripture teaches.


I couldn't care less what you false teachers think. All of you Calvinists are wrong. You are blinded by your false doctrine.

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LOL. My doctrine comes right from the Bible. As I have shown in several previous posts, you conflate and twist and outright ignore scripture to get to your unbiblical conclusions.

God already knows, and already chose for all of us already (basically) who is and is not going to be saved, but because we "don't know" (any of that, etc) we should still try and do all we can to eliminate the possibility (from our perspective) of what the Bible says might disqualify each one of us from being saved (or from winding up being one of those who isn't saved, etc) (from our perspective, etc). And where we are taking risks with that possibly (and again, from our perspective) is with our sinning and/or sins (from our perspective, etc).

And since individual judgement cannot be known for any of us from our perspective, etc. (God can't/won't judge an individual believer from the standard of 100% absolute perfection probably, but there still might be some things he might choose to hold against you and/or ask you about maybe, etc) (and we don't know if any of those can wind up disqualifying any of us, or showing that we were always one of those who wasn't ever going to wind up being saved maybe, etc) (the former is our perspective, and the latter is God's perspective, etc) But, anyway, since individual judgement cannot be known for any of us from our perspective, we should still be trying to to do all we can (when it comes to sin, and sinning) but always with God's help, or with God's strength in us, basically.

Just try to remember that surface sins pale in comparison/importance to the very much greater trouble you are in when it comes to sins of the heart though basically. Don't be an ugly human IOW's, etc. On the inside I mean, etc. Those sins of the heart are sins of the spirit, and God does not take them lightly, etc. This was the issue with the Pharisees, etc. Who were clean with what could be seen on the outside, but who's inside was much uglier than anyone else's was that was around them basically, etc.

God Bless.

LeafByNiggle said:

......The Scriptures are clear that we cannot do anything to earn salvation, but that does not mean that there isn't something we must do to be saved. Here is an analogy using ordinary people. A man is trapped in a deep well and is unable to climb out. Another man is at the top who is unable to lift the first man out because he is out of reach. But the man at the top does have a length of rope which he lowers down into the well. The man at the bottom grabs ties the rope around his waist and the the man at the top then lifts him out. The question is, did the man at the bottom save himself? Or did the man at the top save him? The answer is they needed both the willingness of the man with the rope and the willingness of the man in the well. The man in the well did not "earn" his physical salvation. But he did have to cooperate.

That analogy does not quite represent the relationship between God and Man because God is able to do all things, including save someone who does not cooperate. But the evidence in Scripture is that God does not do that. For His own reasons, which we can never know for certain, God desires that we do cooperate and choose to serve Him out of love. But love is a choice. Love that is imposed is not love, as we know from all the stories about love potions. In those works of imagination, the story never turns out well. Stories reveal a truth that we know intuitively - that love that is imposed - whether by a magic potion or by God's imposition on those He choses, is not real love.

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Great analogy!

The Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ taught the doctrine that we call "synergism" today—the cooperation of God’s grace and human free choice is what saves us and makes us worthy of eternal life.

A New Dawn said:

I believe you are in error in your statement that the fact the question was asked by a sinner doesn’t change [that there is a condition]. I beg to differ in that sinners, have no understanding of God...

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..nor does any mere human, saved or not, have understanding of God. Anyone who claims they understand God is just boasting.

A New Dawn said:

or the ability to seek Him to know which questions to ask.

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That is a postulate, not a theorem. It cannot be proven. It can only be assumed, as can the contrary position, that everyone has the ability to seek Him, but only some choose to do so.

A New Dawn said:

In that passage with the rich young ruler, Jesus gave two answers. The first was to follow all the laws (and although the man said he does that we know nobody can follow the law perfectly), so Jesus, knowing the man’s heart told him a different answer, to sell all that he has and follow Him, and the man loved his money more than he loved God, and left dejected.

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Yes, all that is true. But the analysis which follows is again just an assumption:

A New Dawn said:

The man left unsaved because he had a heart of stone that had not been turned to God (by God). God had not changed his heart so that his nature was in agreement with God’s nature.

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..or, as just as likely, the man left because his desires for material wealth, driven by his free will, were greater than his desire, also driven by free will, to love God. See, I can make up unproven assumptions too.

A New Dawn said:

And that is the way it is with all men. Without God going and preparing the way, none of us would turn to God.

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Now that is absolutely true! But what is not true is that God preparing the way ensures one will choose to walk that way.

A New Dawn said:

Only God knows our hearts and what sins we love more than Him.

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Also very true, but it does not prove unconditional election.

LeafByNiggle said:

..or, as just as likely, the man left because his desires for material wealth, driven by his free will, were greater than his desire, also driven by free will, to love God. See, I can make up unproven assumptions too.

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We freely choose to remain faithful to God and his commandments, or else we choose not to. If we do remain faithful until we die, we will be approved to enter eternal life. God has prepared good works for us to do, and we must do them to the best of our ability in order to remain faithful. Ephesians 2:10, Revelation 2:10

Matthew 13:19-23
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

A New Dawn said:

Our faith is a gift from God so that we can’t boast in our own salvation, according to Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB95)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul specifically points out that our faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God, not something we have to produce on our own so that we cannot boast of our own salvation.

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No, Paul points out that salvation, which is by God's grace through faith, is not of ourselves in the sense that it is "not by works" that we could boast about. The gift of God is salvation/eternal life, not faith.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is works that we could boast of if we were saved by works, not faith. You try to equate faith with works, but scripture does not do that. Paul clearly differentiated between faith and works.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Can you see here that Paul said that works would be something to boast about if we were saved and justified by works, but he did not say that about faith. Instead, he said "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". Why would you not take this passage and Romans 6:23 into consideration when interpreting Ephesians 2:8-9?

A New Dawn said:

You always read into scripture what you think it means instead of reading it for what it says.

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That's exactly what you're doing with Ephesians 2:8-9. You're not taking other scripture into account that tells us what the gift of God is and that faith and works are not the same.

A New Dawn said:

You ASSUME that when people are told to believe on Him to be saved that that means that they have to come up with saving faith on their own, which is impossible, and is why God grants us saving faith.

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Why did Paul and Silas not tell the jailer that there was nothing he could do to be saved then? How would you answer someone if they asked you what they had to do to be saved?

A New Dawn said:

I’m sorry, but Romans 1:18-32 is the very description of total depravity.

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Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that the passage shows that people BECOME totally depraved and are not born that way as Calvinists believe. And, the passage indicates that there is no excuse for suppressing the truth in wickedness and refusing to glorify God and becoming totally depraved. Your doctrine gives people an excuse for that because it says that people can't help but to be totally depraved because everyone is born that way. No, they are not. We're all sinners, yes, but people BECOME totally depraved and not all people do.

Just read the text for yourself and you can see this.

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

This passage would be complete nonsense if people were born totally depraved as Calvinism teaches. No, they BECOME that way when they choose to repeatedly rebel against God by suppressing the truth that they know in wickedness and exchange the truth about God for a lie and start worshiping creation instead of the Creator and take part in sexually deviant acts like homosexuality and so on.

A New Dawn said:

Jesus NEVER said that sinners were spiritually sick. AGAIN, that is something YOU read into the scripture.

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WRONG! Why do you continually not accept what scripture clearly teaches? Why do you desire to just believe what you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches?

This couldn't be more clear, but you still deny it, anyway.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Jesus referred to "the righteous" as "those who are well" and to sinners as "those who are sick". How can you read this and try to tell me that Jesus never said that sinners are spiritually sick? He most certainly did! As anyone reading this without doctrinal bias can clearly see!

A New Dawn said:

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees when he says that after they asked him why he hangs out with sinners, and Jesus responds with an ANALOGY. An analogy is a method of comparison where two DIFFERENT things are compared to clarify or explain a concept.

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LOL. Describing sinners as being dead in sins is an ANALOGY as well. But, it is never compared to being like a physical corpse as Calvinism falsely teaches.

A New Dawn said:

Jesus is not a physician and sinners are not spiritually sick.

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Do you not understand that He was talking about Himself there? He is a physician in a spiritual sense and He heals people who are spiritually sick by offering them spiritual healing. How can you not understand this?

A New Dawn said:

A sick person goes to a physician to be healed, sinners need a savior to be saved. Jesus’ mission was to save sinners. You are purposely conflating the example with Jesus stated mission.

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Goodness gracious. He was clearly relating His mission to save sinners to a physician healing the sick. That means He was seeing Himself as being a physician in a spiritual sense and as being the One who heals those who are spiritually sick. How can you not see that? It's clear as day. I'm not conflating anything.

A New Dawn said:

LOL. My doctrine comes right from the Bible.

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It comes from repeated twisting of the Bible.

A New Dawn said:

As I have shown in several previous posts, you conflate and twist and outright ignore scripture to get to your unbiblical conclusions.

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You have shown NOTHING except for a severe lack of spiritual discernment concerning the things we're talking about. And I'm ignoring nothing. You are the one cherry picking scriptures while either ignoring, twisting or brushing other scriptures under the rug.