Any former Dispensationalists here? What Bible statements convinced you to change?

BobRyan · Monday at 7:10 AM

If you were formerly a Dispensationalist and then you read something in the Bible that lead you to leave dispensationalism, what is it that you found compelling?

Was it:
1. texts like Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 kept showing "more things must happen first" instead of "he could be here this afternoon?"
2. Was it the Rom 2 and Rom 9 statements about 'he is not a Jew who is one outwardly"
3. Matt 24;29-31 "immediately AFTER the tribulation" signs and then Christ appears where Angels gather saints "from one end of heaven to the other' (Rapture)
4. Was it that when asked when Jesus would return in Acts 1 Jesus did not say "could be this afternoon"?
5. Was it the massive Jewish evangelism explosion in Acts 2, Acts 4:4, Acts 21:20 (myriads converted. ie tens of thousands), Acts 51415 "Multitudes"
6. No gaps in Bible prophetic timelines in Dan 7,8,9? 1260 is a timeline, 2300 is a timeline, 70 weeks is a timeline?

Or was it something else?

==================================

ALSO If you were not a dispensationalist at one time and then became one, and are now one... what Bible verses lead you to that change?

Was it
1. Literal rapture in 1 Thess 4;13-18, Matt 24:31
2. Real 1000 year millennium in Rev 20 after the appearing/rapture event in Rev 19
3. Saints raptured to real heaven in John 14:1-3, Matt 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15-16

or something else in the Bible

=================

Caveat

Matt 24

24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be

Almost every Eschatology includes a scenario where people will be living on Earth and then someone will say “Jesus has come and He is over there…”… so then almost every Eschatology has that error

BobRyan · Monday at 7:12 AM

I assume you changed for Bible reasons, Something in the Bible convinced you.

If that is not the case for you , then this thread may not interest you.

Maria Billingsley · Monday at 8:36 AM

BobRyan said:
If you were formerly a Dispensationalist and then you read something in the Bible that lead you to leave dispensationalism, what is it that you found compelling?

Was it
1. texts like Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 kept showing "more things must happen first" instead of "he could be here this afternoon?"
2. Was it the Rom 2 and Rom 9 statements about 'he is not a Jew who is one outwardly"
3. Matt 24;29-31 "immediately AFTER the tribulation" signs and then Christ appears where Angels gather saints "from one end of heaven to the other' (Rapture)
4. Was it that when asked when Jesus would return in Acts 1 Jesus did not say "could be this afternoon"?
5. Was it the massive Jewish evangelism explosion in Acts 2, Acts 4:4, Acts 21:20 (myriads converted. ie tens of thousands), Acts 51415 "Multitudes"
6. No gaps in Bible prophetic timelines in Dan 7,8,9? 1260 is a timeline, 2300 is a timeline, 70 weeks is a timeline?

Or was it something else?

Dispensationalism maps out clear, historical shifts explicitly recorded in the scripture. We can point to specific chapters and verses where those boundaries begin and end.
My departure occurred when the system decided to project into the future. Its method of piecing together highly symbolic, prophetic imagery from books like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation did not sit well with me. The countless indecipherable entries in a maze of diagrams led me to the conclusion that this eschatology is deeply flawed at best and outright deceptive at worst.I came to realize that the imagination of men invented scenarios right out of thin air.
So the onus is not on disproving this theology it is proving it. Frankly, I could not and the reason I left this theology. Nothing could be backed up by scripture without going through hoops.

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

PloverWing · Monday at 9:16 AM

The church I grew up in wasn't Dispensationalist -- mostly, we didn't talk about eschatology much at all -- but I was influenced by Dispensationalism in my childhood through books I read, occasional speakers I listened to, and speakers my parents listened to.

What made the difference for me was, in college, learning more about other kinds of Christians, past and present, who have used different interpretive frameworks to understand the Bible. Dispensationalism isn't the only option to choose from, and it's not even the majority option, historically.

None of that is a Bible verse, so it's probably not the kind of answer you're looking for. But it's the kind of Big Picture thing that makes a difference for me. When the writers of apocalyptic literature in the Bible wrote their texts, what kind of communication were they engaging in? It's important to answer that first, before plunging into calculations about how many years pass between the third trumpet and the multi-headed beast.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 1:31 AM

I have recently documented my misgivings on this Forum. The thing that woke me up were the fruits of Dispensationalism. The way whole portions of Scripture are discarded as being for Israel, eg. Sermon on the Mount.

BobRyan · Tuesday at 2:43 PM

Maria Billingsley said:
Dispensationalism maps out clear, historical shifts explicitly recorded in the scripture. We can point to specific chapters and verses where those boundaries begin and end.
My departure occurred when the system decided to project into the future. Its method of piecing together highly symbolic, prophetic imagery from books like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation did not sit well with me. The countless indecipherable entries in a maze of diagrams led me to the conclusion that this eschatology is deeply flawed at best and outright deceptive at worst.I came to realize that the imagination of men invented scenarios right out of thin air.
So the onus is not on disproving this theology it is proving it. Frankly, I could not and the reason I left this theology. Nothing could be backed up by scripture without going through hoops.

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

So are you saying you considered it briefly and then left having never been convinced in the first place that it was correct?

BobRyan · Tuesday at 2:49 PM

PloverWing said:
The church I grew up in wasn't Dispensationalist -- mostly, we didn't talk about eschatology much at all

You would think that the whole point of dispensationalism was to discuss their view of eschatology, the gap theory of Dan 9, the literal 1000 years, the literal rapture etc.

PloverWing said:
What made the difference for me was, in college, learning more about other kinds of Christians, past and present, who have used different interpretive frameworks to understand the Bible. Dispensationalism isn't the only option to choose from, and it's not even the majority option, historically.

True. I myself am not dispensationlalist but I do share their view that there is a literal 1000 year period in the future, at/after the appearing of Christ and the literal rapture of the saints to heaven.

PloverWing said:
When the writers of apocalyptic literature in the Bible wrote their texts, what kind of communication were they engaging in?

They used symbols for sure. But when they speak of the saints and of Christ "the Son of Man" Dan 7 etc... it is pretty literal

PloverWing said:
It's important to answer that first,

agreed

PloverWing said:
before plunging into calculations about how many years pass between the third trumpet and the multi-headed beast.

agreed. But I am wondering about big pieces in the puzzle. I list some of them in the OP. Did any of that get your attention as a Dispensationalist?

Dan Perez · Tuesday at 4:49 PM

BobRyan said:
I assume you changed for Bible reasons, Something in the Bible convinced you.

If that is not the case for you , then this thread may not interest you.

And this. what Paul wrote by HOLY SPIRIT in. Gal 1:8 , But throughway or an ANGEL. from. Heaven PREACH any other

GOSPLE UNTO YOU THAN that which we have PREACHED. UNTO YOU let HIM. be ACCURSED. !!

Then in vers e 9 Paul says , As we have said BEFOREHAND. PAUL. repeats verse 8. and Paul is working all.

# 1 DOES NOT agree. with water // hydor baptism.

#2 Does not believe in speaking in TONGUES

#3 DOES believe in Rom 10;9. AND 10. for salvation

$ 4 And believes 1 Cor 12:13 to be BAPTIIZED BY HOLY SPIRIT into One BODY

and many more !!

dan p

PloverWing · Tuesday at 4:59 PM

BobRyan said:
But I am wondering about big pieces in the puzzle. I list some of them in the OP. Did any of that get your attention as a Dispensationalist?

Of the passages listed in the OP, I'd say that Matthew 24:36 is the most significant: "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." This seems inconsistent with the ability to draw charts that predict the date of Christ's return.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 6:11 PM

Dan Perez said:
And this. what Paul wrote by HOLY SPIRIT in. Gal 1:8 , But throughway or an ANGEL. from. Heaven PREACH any other

GOSPLE UNTO YOU THAN that which we have PREACHED. UNTO YOU let HIM. be ACCURSED. !!

Then in vers e 9 Paul says , As we have said BEFOREHAND. PAUL. repeats verse 8. and Paul is working all.

# 1 DOES NOT agree. with water // hydor baptism.

#2 Does not believe in speaking in TONGUES

#3 DOES believe in Rom 10;9. AND 10. for salvation

$ 4 And believes 1 Cor 12:13 to be BAPTIIZED BY HOLY into One BODY

and many more !!

dan p

Dan, there are many that would say your Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is 'another Gospel'.

Dan Perez · Tuesday at 6:52 PM

Aussie52 said:
Dan, there are many that would say your Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is 'another Gospel'.

And I have been a ACTS 9 DISPENDATIONALIST since for about , 35 years. !!

And just asking , do you know when Saul was saved ??

And Paul is the ONLY ONE that explains what DISPENSATISM. // OIKONOMIA means and if and angel from HEAVEN.

would preach. to you CONTRARY to what we preached to you , let him be ACCURSED

and. verse 9 says. the same thing !!

dan p

Maria Billingsley · Tuesday at 8:17 PM

BobRyan said:
So are you saying you considered it briefly and then left having never been convinced in the first place that it was correct?

I lived with this teaching for 40 years. Left it around 2015.

johansen · Tuesday at 10:21 PM

I have had a prophetic level of caution for my entire life on many matters, of which some i wait decades for confirmation, and so while i was rised in a 5050 rapture vs non rapture fundamentalist church, in hindsight i never did believe the rapure was legit, but i was distracted withb
different dispensations of both christians and prior to christ jews.

What made me realize its all nonsense was when a verse was spoken to me in my mind: John 12:31

It is spoken in the present tense. Now is the judgement. Now shall the ruler of the world be cast out. And Jesus said this before he died and rose again.

We do not need to wait for a future judgement, or look back like the 7th day adventists and say it must have started in 1841.

Its already here, and has been.

Jesus can return today, setup his 1000 year reign without killing anyone who just... Leaves him alone!

Dan Perez · Wednesday at 12:45 AM

johansen said:
I have had a prophetic level of caution for my entire life on many matters, of which some i wait decades for confirmation, and so while i was rised in a 5050 rapture vs non rapture fundamentalist church, in hindsight i never did believe the rapure was legit, but i was distracted withb
different dispensations of both christians and prior to christ jews.

What made me realize its all nonsense was when a verse was spoken to me in my mind: John 12:31

It is spoken in the present tense. Now is the judgement. Now shall the ruler of the world be cast out. And Jesus said this before he died and rose again.

We do not need to wait for a future judgement, or look back like the 7th day adventists and say it must have started in 1841.

Its already here, and has been.

Jesus can return today, setup his 1000 year reign without killing anyone who just... Leaves him alone!

And here what John 12:31 says. !!

# 1 NOW // NYN is a ADVERB

# 2 IS. //. ESTI. is. in. the PRESENT TENSE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD

# 3 THE JUDGMENT // KIRSIS in. the NOMIMATIVE CASE in. the SIGNULAR

# 4 OF THIS. //. TOUTOU. is a DEMONSTRASTIVE PRONOUNin. the GENOITIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR

# 5. WORLD. // KOSMOS. in. the GENITIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR

# 6 NOW. //. NYN is a ADVERB

# 7 SHALL. // EKBOLLO in the FUTURE TENSE

# 8 THE // HO is a DEFINITYE ARTICLE in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the SIGNULAR

# 9. PRINCE // ARCNON in. the NOMINATIVE CASE. in. the SIGNULAR

# 10 OF THIS //. TOUTOU is a DEMINSTRATIVE PRONOUN. in. the GENITIVE CASE in. the SIGNULAR

# 11 WORLD. // KOSMOS in. the GENITIVE. CASE in. the SIGNULAR

# 12 BE CAST. // EKBALLO. in. the FUTURE TENSE in. the PASITIVE VOICE in c the SIGNULAR

# 13 OUT //. EXO. is a ADVERB

# An. YOU TOUTED THE PRESENT TENSE and the PRESENT MEANS , CONTINUOS action. in v the PRESENT but the

FUTURE. TENSE. TRUMPS. the PRESENT TENSE !!

dan p

Dan Perez · Wednesday at 12:59 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
Dispensationalism maps out clear, historical shifts explicitly recorded in the scripture. We can point to specific chapters and verses where those boundaries begin and end.
My departure occurred when the system decided to project into the future. Its method of piecing together highly symbolic, prophetic imagery from books like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation did not sit well with me. The countless indecipherable entries in a maze of diagrams led me to the conclusion that this eschatology is deeply flawed at best and outright deceptive at worst.I came to realize that the imagination of men invented scenarios right out of thin air.
So the onus is not on disproving this theology it is proving it. Frankly, I could not and the reason I left this theology. Nothing could be backed up by scripture without going through hoops.

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

And the word DISPENSATION. CAN. BE FOUND ABOIUT 5 TIMES !!

And Paul says this in GAL 1:7 in GAL 1:7 !!

BUT though we or an ANGEL from heaven PREACH. any other GOSPEL. unto you than what THAT. which. we PREACHED

unto you LET HIM BE ACCURSED !!

And Gal 1:9 says you BETTER BELIEVE IT and you have all been WARNED by. the APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES

the APOSTLE PAUL !!

dan p

Maria Billingsley · Wednesday at 8:02 AM

Dan Perez said:
And the word DISPENSATION. CAN. BE FOUND ABOIUT 5 TIMES !!

And Paul says this in GAL 1:7 in GAL 1:7 !!

BUT though we or an ANGEL from heaven PREACH. any other GOSPEL. unto you than what THAT. which. we PREACHED

unto you LET HIM BE ACCURSED !!

And Gal 1:9 says you BETTER BELIEVE IT and you have all been WARNED by. the APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES

the APOSTLE PAUL !!

dan p

When Paul uses the word dispenation, his context focuses on personal stewardship and the administration of God's grace and not the complex system of historical eras developed by theologians centuries later.

fhansen · Wednesday at 9:46 AM

Aussie52 said:
I have recently documented my misgivings on this Forum. The thing that woke me up were the fruits of Dispensationalism. The way whole portions of Scripture are discarded as being for Israel, eg. Sermon on the Mount.

And isn't that sad, as the Sermon on the Mt is central to understanding the gospel with the Beatitudes, particularly, taking center stage. It's as if anytime a passage might conflict with their theology, they just assign it to old covenant teaching even if it doesn't fit the context at all, and that became a trend in many other theological circles as well.

RandyPNW · Wednesday at 12:44 PM

BobRyan said:
If you were formerly a Dispensationalist and then you read something in the Bible that lead you to leave dispensationalism, what is it that you found compelling?

I was raised with a Lutheran perspective, which in my experience didn't place much more importance in Christ's 2nd Coming than existed in the reciting of the creeds. But when the Jesus Movement came along, I jumped on board and started memorizing Scriptures. Because my Jesus People friends were all Dispensationalists I accepted that eschatology as well until I memorized 2 Thessalonians. To my surprise it actually teaching Postribulationism, which is contrary to Dispensationalist eschatology.

From that time to now I've adjusted my views in a number of different ways. I still retain belief in Premillennialism, and also in a national restoration of Israel to faith in Christ.

BobRyan · Wednesday at 8:45 PM

RandyPNW said:
I was raised with a Lutheran perspective, which in my experience didn't place much more importance in Christ's 2nd Coming than existed in the reciting of the creeds. But when the Jesus Movement came along, I jumped on board and started memorizing Scriptures. Because my Jesus People friends were all Dispensationalists I accepted that eschatology as well until I memorized 2 Thessalonians. To my surprise it actually teaching Postribulationism, which is contrary to Dispensationalist eschatology.

From that time to now I've adjusted my views in a number of different ways. I still retain belief in Premillennialism, and also in a national restoration of Israel to faith in Christ.

Interesting!!

Premill can be seen in places like Rev 19 and 20 for sure.

Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 show "a lot of things must happen before Christ appears"

===================

As for Israel gathered in... we see

Acts 2, 3000 gathered in Jerusalem
Acts 4, 5000 gathered in Jerusalem
Acts 5 Multitudes gathered in Jerusalem
Acts 21 Myriads and myriads gathered in Israel

More Jews are seen as being converted in other towns during the evangelism events seen in the book of Acts..

So my question for you is this... do you see Christians (both Jews and nonJews) on Earth today as "Salt of the Earth" and "Light of the world? ? As in Matt 5

If so, then does removing all of that from the world make it even more likely that nonChristian Jews will be converted?? IE will they do even better without the salt of the Earth, and the Light of the world present??

If so, then when the first handful of Christian converts happens , then aren't you back to the same situation of having Christians on the Earth trying to convert nonChristian Jews?

Just curious

BobRyan · Wednesday at 8:53 PM

Maria Billingsley said:
Dispensationalism maps out clear, historical shifts explicitly recorded in the scripture. We can point to specific chapters and verses where those boundaries begin and end.
My departure occurred when the system decided to project into the future. Its method of piecing together highly symbolic, prophetic imagery from books like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation did not sit well with me. The countless indecipherable entries in a maze of diagrams led me to the conclusion that this eschatology is deeply flawed at best and outright deceptive at worst.I came to realize that the imagination of men invented scenarios right out of thin air.
So the onus is not on disproving this theology it is proving it. Frankly, I could not and the reason I left this theology. Nothing could be backed up by scripture without going through hoops.

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

Huge problem shows up in Matt 24

#1. He can’t be “over there”. No “over there” message is to be given to the world we live in.

Matt 24

24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be

=====

Almost every Eschatology includes a scenario where people will be living on Earth and then someone will say “Jesus has come and He is over there…”… so then almost every Eschatology has that error

===== Matt 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation… signs and wonders… Christ appears… then His angels gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other

Any former Dispensationalists here? What Bible statements convinced you to change?

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