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Doctrine of Unconditional Election

A New Dawn

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Show me where it says God opened their eyes to become believers? Scripture does not say that faith comes from God opening people's eyes or from regeneration, it says faith comes by hearing the word of God/Christ. Not all who hear it accept it, but you have to hear it first before you can believe it. That's what Paul indicated in Romans 10:14-21. But, what he also indicated is that God reached out all day long to the Israelites. In your view, faith occurs instantly upon God opening someone's eyes and regenerating them, right? So, why would God have reached out all day long to them with the gospel message if it was entirely up to Him as to whether they would believe or not? That makes no sense.
I am sorry that you are not able to understand the connection between regeneration and your eyes being opened and your ears hearing.

I am done here.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The only real time we have real choice is after God regenerates our hearts and we can choose out of our redeemed position before God. Before then, we can only choose out of our fallen nature, and fallen creatures CANNOT choose to even seek or follow God. So it is the end position of your theology that leaves man without a choice, since in your theology, you have to choose God instead of Him making the first move. The scriptures are as clear as they can be on this. It is repeated three times in scripture, which means God thinks it is so important to know. But you refuse to accept it because you want your beliefs to trump God’s clear instruction.

Romans 3:9-12 (NASB95)
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
(emphasis NOT mine)

Ephesians 2:4-6 (NASB95)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB95)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
This cherry picking of verses is not the way to discover the truth of scripture. You need to be able to reconcile your doctrine with ALL of scripture. You quote Romans 3:9-12 and draw conclusions from it, but what about this passage...

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

You reference a passage about being dead in transgressions and then made alive together with Christ, but what do you think that means? Being dead in sins has nothing to do with being totally depraved and having total inability to repent and believe. Being dead in sins means you are separated from God because of your sins. It says nothing at all about one's ability to repent of their sins. Jesus described sinners as being spiritually sick and in need of a physician and He calls them to repentance.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

You referenced Ephesians 2:8-9 which says that salvation is not a result of works, so that no one may boast. We all agree on that. But, you try to turn faith into a work despite the fact that Paul differentiated between faith and works. He did that in Ephesians 2:8-9 and he also did that here....

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

If we have no responsibility at all in and of ourselves in salvation, then explain this...

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I am sorry that you are not able to understand the connection between regeneration and your eyes being opened and your ears hearing.

I am done here.
I am sorry that you are not willing to defend your doctrine. Or are you unable?
 
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Brightfame52

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LOL. Says the guy running from everything I want to discuss. Hilarious.
If you want to discuss something, do it, start a thread for it. This is about the doctrine of unconditional election
 
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Brightfame52

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If we have no responsibility at all in and of ourselves in salvation, then explain this...

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Nothing said about responsibility here. So you explain it
 
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LeafByNiggle

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Nothing said about responsibility here. So you explain it
The question itself implies responsibility. "What must I do to be saved?" If unconditional election were true, the only correct answer would have been "There is nothing you can do to be saved." Instead the answer given actually specifies a condition.
 
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A New Dawn

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This cherry picking of verses is not the way to discover the truth of scripture. You need to be able to reconcile your doctrine with ALL of scripture. You quote Romans 3:9-12 and draw conclusions from it, but what about this passage...

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

You reference a passage about being dead in transgressions and then made alive together with Christ, but what do you think that means? Being dead in sins has nothing to do with being totally depraved and having total inability to repent and believe. Being dead in sins means you are separated from God because of your sins. It says nothing at all about one's ability to repent of their sins. Jesus described sinners as being spiritually sick and in need of a physician and He calls them to repentance.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

You referenced Ephesians 2:8-9 which says that salvation is not a result of works, so that no one may boast. We all agree on that. But, you try to turn faith into a work despite the fact that Paul differentiated between faith and works. He did that in Ephesians 2:8-9 and he also did that here....

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

If we have no responsibility at all in and of ourselves in salvation, then explain this...

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
How many dead people do you know who have sat up and made decisions to move on with their life? Depraved people are most definitely dead in their sins and trespasses.

And you want to talk about cherry-picking scriptures? Most of the scriptures you post have nothing to do with the discussion. And most of us here have expressed this to you.
 
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Neogaia777

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The question itself implies responsibility. "What must I do to be saved?" If unconditional election were true, the only correct answer would have been "There is nothing you can do to be saved." Instead the answer given actually specifies a condition.
The real answer is we don't know if there is anything we can do to be saved, etc. God knows, but we don't, and so that changes everything from our perspective.

If there is, or we can, then God already knew it, and even already chose it for you/caused it, etc, but because we don't ever know that, or know if there is or not (that has been already written in stone for our future) or know anything about that, it changes absolutely everything from our perspective.

If you don't ever know what's supposed to be, or how the future is already fixed/writen/chosen for you, and can't go/happen any other way, etc, anyway, if none of us ever gets to know anything at all about that ever, can you not see how that changes absolutely everything from our perspective?

God knows the future/already wrote it for me, etc, but I don't, etc, so how am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to do/choose, or how I'm supposed to act or not act, use my will to try to do something or change something, or else not, or whether I should refrain or not refrain, for any given situation?

Even if God already knows it/wrote it/caused it/chose it for me already, it doesn't change a thing from my perspective, unless I can have all of his knowledge, or know everything he knows, etc. Which is probably impossible for anyone but him, so even if he already knows it/did it all already, it doesn't change even one single thing from my perspective. I have no choice but to use my ability to make decisions/use my will/choose, etc. Even if there is no such thing for us with God right now from his perspective, etc.

And this isn't fatalism, the fact that we don't ever know should be somewhat exciting, etc, because it means the future can go any kind of way from our perspective, and also from our perspective, that we basically have the will/power/ability to do or change/alter anything by the exertion or use of that will from our perspective, even if that's not really actually the case from an always all-knowing being/entities perspective, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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The real answer is we don't know if there is anything we can do to be saved, etc. God knows, but we don't, and so that changes everything from our perspective.

If there is, or we can, then God already knew it, and even already chose it for you/caused it, etc, but because we don't ever know that, or know if there is or not (that has been already written in stone for our future) or know anything about that, it changes absolutely everything from our perspective.

If you don't ever know what's supposed to be, or how the future is already fixed/writen/chosen for you, and can't go/happen any other way, etc, anyway, if none of us ever gets to know anything at all about that ever, can you not see how that changes absolutely everything from our perspective?

God knows the future/already wrote it for me, etc, but I don't, etc, so how am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to do/choose, or how I'm supposed to act or not act, use my will to try to do something or change something, or else not, or whether I should refrain or not refrain, for any given situation?

Even if God already knows it/wrote it/caused it/chose it for me already, it doesn't change a thing from my perspective, unless I can have all of his knowledge, or know everything he knows, etc. Which is probably impossible for anyone but him, so even if he already knows it/did it all already, it doesn't change even one single thing from my perspective. I have no choice but to use my ability to make decisions/use my will/choose, etc. Even if there is no such thing for us with God right now from his perspective, etc.

And this isn't fatalism, the fact that we don't ever know should be somewhat exciting, etc, because it means the future can go any kind of way from our perspective, and also from our perspective, that we basically have the will/power/ability to do or change/alter anything by the exertion or use of that will from our perspective, even if that's not really actually the case from an always all-knowing being/entities perspective, etc.

God Bless.
And the only reason I'm talking about it right now, is not really to affect the way you make choices/decisions, but is just because I want you all to know the truth, and also get to know this always all-knowing being that is always the first cause of everything, etc. Right now you don't at all know Him, etc.
 
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Brightfame52

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The question itself implies responsibility.
No it doesnt, its just a question, concern about his condition. Besides, now was the opportunity for the Apostle to explain the Gospel, at which time truths like election of grace, and who Christ is, what He has done, for whom He done it.
 
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Jan001

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The real answer is we don't know if there is anything we can do to be saved, etc. God knows, but we don't, and so that changes everything from our perspective.

A person asked Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life. Jesus told him plainly to obey his commandments. Jesus also requires every person to remain faithful—obedient—until his death.

God's saving grace is withdrawn from people if they don't obey, even if they will be imprisoned or martyred for believing in Jesus Christ. If people deny their Christian faith to save their lives, they will not be approved to enter eternal life.
Matthew 10:33, 2 Timothy 2:12

Matthew 19:16-19
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.



Millions of Christians believe that because they received God's saving grace as a gift, they cannot lose it.

They are mistaken. If they commit a grievous sin, they have rejected God. His saving grace is withdrawn. Unless they repent and confess their grievous sins before they die, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.



Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.


Hebrews 10:29-31
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
 
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A New Dawn

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The question itself implies responsibility. "What must I do to be saved?" If unconditional election were true, the only correct answer would have been "There is nothing you can do to be saved." Instead the answer given actually specifies a condition.
Yes, one must have faith, but God bestows the gift of faith on us when he makes us His own. So, there is still nothing WE have to do for salvation. We DO follow His commands as a reflection of His love for us, because He asked us to, and to grow in Him, but that comes after justification. Not prior to it because the scriptures are clear that we cannot do anything to earn salvation. If we could, Christ’s sacrifice would have been in vain.
 
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A New Dawn

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A person asked Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life. Jesus told him plainly to obey his commandments. Jesus also requires every person to remain faithful—obedient—until his death.

God's saving grace is withdrawn from people if they don't obey, even if they will be imprisoned or martyred for believing in Jesus Christ. If people deny their Christian faith to save their lives, they will not be approved to enter eternal life.
Matthew 10:33, 2 Timothy 2:12

Matthew 19:16-19
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.



Millions of Christians believe that because they received God's saving grace as a gift, they cannot lose it.

They are mistaken. If they commit a grievous sin, they have rejected God. His saving grace is withdrawn. Unless they repent and confess their grievous sins before they die, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.



Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.


Hebrews 10:29-31
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Do you not know when Jesus is speaking to people who are steeped in Jewish tradition and believes that the law saves them compared to when He (and the apostles after Him) are speaking about THE NEW COVENANT in His blood that He shed for us?

Enduring to the end is part of the Doctrines of Grace, but there are promises throughout the Bible that Jesus will save ALL whom the Father gives Him to save. Of those the Father gives Him, he will lose NONE. so all who are truly Christ’s will endure to the end. If some believed initially for a while and turned away, they were never Christ’s to begin with.
 
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Jan001

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Many Christians believe that they don' have to do anything to inherit eternal life.

Jesus states:


Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

When I die, I hope to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master."


Matthew 25:21
His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

Before the foundation of the world, God either "foreknew" you or else he "never knew" you. He will say he "never knew" you if you did not remain faithful to him until your death.
Romans 8:29, Matthew 7:20-23

God knew every thought, word, and deed of every person's entire life before he created the world, and he "put into his hand" the people who remained faithful until they died. These are the people "he gave to his son." Revelation 2:10, John 10:27-29

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:


Before God created the world, he already knew which people would inherit eternal life. He chose his "elect" according to his foreknowledge about all their future works.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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No it doesnt, its just a question, concern about his condition.
There is no way that "What must I do to be saved?" can be taken as the same thing "Am I saved?" The first question links salvation with DOING something. The second one doesn't. So the question was not merely a concern about his present condition. It was a question about agency in becoming saved.

Besides, now was the opportunity for the Apostle to explain the Gospel, at which time truths like election of grace, and who Christ is, what He has done, for whom He done it.
It is odd that you say now was the opportunity for explaining election and grace (none of which requires us to DO anything) but rather goes directly to instructing them on DOING something.
 
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Brightfame52

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There is no way that "What must I do to be saved?" can be taken as the same thing "Am I saved?" The first question links salvation with DOING something. The second one doesn't. So the question was not merely a concern about his present condition. It was a question about agency in becoming saved.


It is odd that you say now was the opportunity for explaining election and grace (none of which requires us to DO anything) but rather goes directly to instructing them on DOING something.
There was no requirements or conditions, you have an spiritually awaken sinner, inquiring about salvation. This was an opportunity for the Apostle to teach the word of the Lord. Who Jesus is, what He accomplished and for who.
 
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Brightfame52

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It is odd that you say now was the opportunity for explaining election and grace (none of which requires us to DO anything) but rather goes directly to instructing them on DOING something.
Paul later wrote to the Philippians, no doubt the jailor was among them, Paul made it clear in the epistle to them, that its given to believe on Christ name Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Now would not Paul had the Jailor the same thing earlier when spoke the word of the lord to the jailor when he asked Paul what must i do to be saved, and Paul replied "believe o n the Lord and though shalt be saved, then it says in vs 32 they spake unto him the word of the Lord
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

It would have been then Paul would have told the jailor it must be given by grace to believe on His Name.
 
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Neogaia777

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A person asked Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life. Jesus told him plainly to obey his commandments. Jesus also requires every person to remain faithful—obedient—until his death.

God's saving grace is withdrawn from people if they don't obey, even if they will be imprisoned or martyred for believing in Jesus Christ. If people deny their Christian faith to save their lives, they will not be approved to enter eternal life.
Matthew 10:33, 2 Timothy 2:12

Matthew 19:16-19
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.



Millions of Christians believe that because they received God's saving grace as a gift, they cannot lose it.

They are mistaken. If they commit a grievous sin, they have rejected God. His saving grace is withdrawn. Unless they repent and confess their grievous sins before they die, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.



Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.


Hebrews 10:29-31
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
God cannot require perfection from all of us, or none of us would make it in, and there would have also been no point to Jesus dying for our sins, but I also don't think he can let all sins slide for everybody either, so individual judgement is going to be somewhere in-between probably, and might not be exactly the same for each individual person, since some of us are more or less capable in different areas, and only God knows what those are, etc, which leaves us right now not knowing what it is going to be, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How many dead people do you know who have sat up and made decisions to move on with their life? Depraved people are most definitely dead in their sins and trespasses.
Your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins is flawed. It means to be separated from God because of your sins and has nothing to do with one's ability or inability to repent.

Read Romans 1:18-32. People are not born totally depraved as you imagine. They only become that way after repeatedly suppressing the truth in wickedness. And they have no excuse for that. But, your doctrine gives them an excuse.

Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick and in need of a physician (Him) and He calls them to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. You say He calls them to do something that they are unable to do unless He causes them to do it, which is complete nonsense.


And you want to talk about cherry-picking scriptures?
Yes, that's what you do.

Most of the scriptures you post have nothing to do with the discussion.
What a lie. They absolutely do. Why is it that you're not interested in honest discussion? It seems that you just believe what you want to believe regardless of what scripture teaches.

And most of us here have expressed this to you.
I couldn't care less what you false teachers think. All of you Calvinists are wrong. You are blinded by your false doctrine.
 
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If you want to discuss something, do it, start a thread for it. This is about the doctrine of unconditional election
That's what I've been discussing, but you run away from every argument that you have no answer for instead of just acknowledging the holes in your doctrine.
 
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