Is Salvation a choice? If it is, whose choice is it ?

Jan001 · Jun 29, 2026

We freely chose our destiny—heaven or hell. We will be judged impartially by our deeds to determine whether we will be rewarded with heaven or hell. 1 Peter 1:17

God knew which humans would inherit eternal life before he created the world; these people are his “elect.” God therefore predestined them because they were faithful to him—obeying his commandments until their deaths. Philippians 2:8, Luke 9:23

1 Peter 1:2-3
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Unfortunately, only God knows who his "elect" are. We can examine ourselves to see if we are living the faith—in Christ Jesus—but we cannot foresee if we will remain obedient to God’s commandments until our deaths. Revelation 2:10

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

What prevents a person from remaining as one of Jesus' faithful disciples? He commits a grievous sin and doesn't repent of it. 1 John 5:16-17, 1 Corinthians 5:11, Ephesians 5:5-7, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Timothy 5:8

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

2 Timothy 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.”

God predestined only a few people to eternal life compared to the many he did not predestine. Peter explains what we must do to ensure that we are one of God's "elect." 2 Peter 1:3-11

Matthew 13:18-23
“Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 (Called) When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

20 (Called and Justified) As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

22 (Called and Justified, but Lukewarm) As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. Revelation 3:16

23 (Predestined, Called, Justified, and Glorified) As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Only a few people will "pick up their cross daily," cooperate with the Holy Spirit by "keeping themselves" in God's grace—his kindness—and obey God's commandments until their deaths. These few people will be worthy of eternal life. Matthew 7:13-14, Romans 11:22, Romans 2:4

Jan001 · Jun 29, 2026

God knew before he created the world which people would inherit eternal life.

With God, it is always "today." He sees all past, all present, and all future events on earth "today."

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

God's works concerning all his creation were finished on the sixth day. He will not be doing any more work.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “As in my anger I swore, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” though his works were finished at the foundation of the world.

God saw all human works, past, present, and future, as "finished works" before he rested on the seventh day.

He predestined to eternal life the people who he found faithful to him at the time of their deaths. He predestined these few people to inherit eternal life "according to his foreknowledge about their every thought, word, and action" of their entire lives before he rested on the seventh day. 1 Peter 1:1-2, Revelation 2:10, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 7:21, Luke 10:25-28

Because God had foreknowledge about future human events, God destined his beloved son to redeem humankind from Adam's sin before he rested on the seventh day. Acts 2:23

1 Peter 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.

fhansen · Jun 29, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
Why do you assume he wants everyone that ever will have lived to go to Heaven?

I didn't say that but, yes, I would assume it because that would be the nature of love-and He is love. Why wouldn't someone who loves want the same for all, the best for all?

Mark Quayle said:
But if everyone is at enmity with God, how will they get there without him changing them? I mean, how will they even do anything real?

By grace, as has been affirmned multiple times.

Mark Quayle said:
No, Adam has no right to his own being. He has responsibility to obey.

And he must, in his being, recognize the need, the rightfulness, the wisdom, of obedience, the need for Him first above all else- like a prodigal who's been far away from home for a very long time and has finally coem, to appreciate...home, our true home.

Mark Quayle said:
No God did not want Adam to disobey. (Define "want" when it is applied to God

His will, of course.

Mark Quayle said:
No, the Spirit of God did not cause Adam to disobey God. Not sure why you went there.

Because it's the Spirit who wills within us to do His will. God willed that Adam did not sin, as was recorded. But Adam sinned. Those are the things we know-the rest is speculation. Sin would not exist at all if Adam was not free to resist God's will.

To quote Augsutine again (sorry, I just think the guy had quite a few worthwhile things to say), "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist."

He considered it better to allow evil-and the freedom that's necessary for it to occur-if an even greater good would ultimately come of it in the end.

fhansen · Jun 29, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
I don't think I said life to death. I said from death to life (or at least that's what I meant to say). We cannot change God's mind. It is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.

I meant death to life either way, my bad.

Mark Quayle said:
Rebirth, "born from above" (John 3 discourse with Nicodemus), born again, regeneration, is what happens when the Spirit of God takes up residence within a person, utterly changing the person's will. God does not depend on the integrity of anyone to keep what he has begun, nor does he abandon the project. There is indeed a substantive change.

Eph 2 describes that death-to-life transformation, and Romans 8 shows our inability to change ourselves, until God has changed us.

Yes, we can't change ourselves, but we can certainly refuse to be changed; we can resist. And I'd still like to coax out a more thorough description of this change from you perspective. What/how do we choose differently, now that the will is changed? And if this change is so dramatic, so complete, so all-at-once and permanent, why do reborn people still sin?

Mark Quayle · Jun 29, 2026

throughfierytrial said:
I agree as Philippians in fact says, it is God in us to will and to act according to His purpose.

That being said there is a conscious effort to undertake to repent …do an about-face…to conform to God’s will. The incomprehensible issue is where in this new relationship…God in us/indwelling us… do I a person begin and where do I end.

There are many warnings given to the NT Christian. Don’t be lukewarm, not to put out the Spirit’s fire, struggle against the flesh, exercise self-control …. On and on.

You may be describing a once saved always saved relationship with God.??? I do not subscribe to that belief. But, God saves us by grace and God willing we do not become Godless like Esau who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup. (a somber reminder)

You said: "That being said there is a conscious effort to undertake to repent …do an about-face…to conform to God’s will". —Amen that!
Then you said, "The incomprehensible issue is where in this new relationship…God in us/indwelling us… do I a person begin and where do I end."

I guess it would be cheap of me to argue that since you don't try to resolve the question of God being first causer with man somehow being an uncaused causer also, if I then said, "It's a mystery! You should be happy with that!" But there's an easier and better answer: "Why do you need to know that? Nevertheless, you begin where God causes. Repentance is also a gift of God, and if you don't do it, you don't belong to him. And he will work in you both to will and to do whatever he has in mind to do with you."

I'm guessing you asked the question, "where [do I] begin and where do I end", because you understand at this point what TULIP's Irresistible Grace means. The truth is that the Spirit does as it will. (John 3 again) Some people just one day realize they believe. Others, it may be years. Most people, it seems, are overwhelmed immediately or at least pray repentance and submission, emotionally or not. The depth of understanding and emotion is no indication of the quality of the faith. The quality of faith is by God. But all believers are in Christ, and no longer 'belong to themselves'. You don't 'take over the reins', now able to do it right. They don't obey separately from Christ's work in them. It's not only that they are motivated and decide accordingly, but that their very will has been transformed. Where before everything they did was at enmity with God, now their heart has been transformed, and they are no longer at enmity, so they are ABLE to obey and to walk with Christ, growing in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Your identity is IN CHRIST.

You said: "There are many warnings given to the NT Christian. Don’t be lukewarm, not to put out the Spirit’s fire, struggle against the flesh, exercise self-control …. On and on." —Absolutely! Problem? Whether from fear, love, pain, admiration, worship or sorrow, your will wants Christ and his righteousness. If you are sealed 'in Christ' by the Spirit of God, you need him, whether you always feel it or not.

You said: "But, God saves us by grace and God willing we do not become Godless like Esau who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup. (a somber reminder)" For sure!

You also had said: "You may be describing a once saved always saved relationship with God.??? I do not subscribe to that belief." I subscribe to the principle it was probably intended to describe when the phrase was coined, but I very much dislike the implications people draw from it, so I don't teach it. Jesus Christ will not lose even one of those the Father gave to him. It is a sure thing. But it is not automatic. All the evidences of the truth of it MUST be done. And I pray God that he will count me faithful. What God has begun he will complete.

Mark Quayle · Jun 29, 2026

fhansen said:
I didn't say that but, yes, I would assume it because that would be the nature of love-and He is love. Why wouldn't someone who loves want the same for all, the best for all?

I don't know if you assume, as many do, that he loves everyone just as much and in the same way and for the same reasons. That he's not particular about anyone, and chose everyone equally to be saved.

But, his love is not like ours. We can't hold him to our notions of what comprises love, or represents it, or what it is. GOD is love. He defines it—we do not. Furthermore, he didn't make all this for mankind's sake, to see what would come of it. He made it all for HIS OWN SAKE and includes us in it, which is more than any of us deserve. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."(Romans 11:36)

Mark Quayle said:
But if everyone is at enmity with God, how will they get there without him changing them? I mean, how will they even do anything real?

fhansen said:
By grace, as has been affirmned multiple times.

That's pretty vague. Maybe you can be more specific how that works, when Romans 8 says they can't do anything to please God, before Christ by the Spirit of God has set us free from the law of sin.

Mark Quayle said:
But if everyone is at enmity with God, how will they get there without him changing them? I mean, how will they even do anything real?

fhansen said:
And he must, in his being, recognize the need, the rightfulness, the wisdom, of obedience, the need for Him first above all else- like a prodigal who's been far away from home for a very long time and has finally coem, to appreciate...home, our true home.

Of course.

Mark Quayle said:
No God did not want Adam to disobey. (Define "want" when it is applied to God

fhansen said:
His will, of course.

But we see at least two different sort of things we describe as God's will, as I demonstrated in the post you are answering here. You seem to think his will can only mean his command.

fhansen said:
Because it's the Spirit who wills within us to do His will. God willed that Adam did not sin, as was recorded.

Where do you read that recorded? Or are you inferring it from his command? Which kind of will was that? See what I'm saying—God intended one thing to happen, but commanded the other, which was disobeyed.

fhansen said:
But Adam sinned. Those are the things we know-the rest is speculation. Sin would not exist at all if Adam was not free to resist God's will.

Indeed he did resist God's command.

fhansen said:
To quote Augsutine again (sorry, I just think the guy had quite a few worthwhile things to say), "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist."

Don't be sorry. I think very highly of him. He had a LOT of worthwhile things to say. Sounds to me there like Augustine would agree with me, then, that God intended Adam to sin.

fhansen said:
He considered it better to allow evil-and the freedom that's necessary for it to occur-if an even greater good would ultimately come of it in the end.

For what it is worth, a lot of Reformed and Calvinists use that phrase, too—"allow evil"—but I don't like it as it seems to lend some kind of power to evil to do things apart from God's control.

Mark Quayle · Jun 29, 2026

fhansen said:
Yes, we can't change ourselves, but we can certainly refuse to be changed; we can resist. And I'd still like to coax out a more thorough description of this change from you perspective. What/how do we choose differently, now that the will is changed? And if this change is so dramatic, so complete, so all-at-once and permanent, why do reborn people still sin?

As you know, or would probably have guessed, I believe in TULIP's "Total Depravity", or as some proponents prefer it, "Total Inability". I'm not going to bog this down with a lot of passages to the point, but there are MANY. As always, Ephesians 2 speaks of being dead in sin, and Romans 8 speaks of the inability for the mind of the flesh to please God. In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not." The sinner knows it is sin, but doesn't have to ability to do what is without sin. This is reaffirmed in the charge that salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the will of the lost. At the very core, all he can do is at enmity with God, which defines sinfulness. Whether he chooses good or bad, it is still done in sin. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

By contrast, the born again is no longer at the core sinful, so whatever he does, whether sin or obedience, he remains at the core, redeemed, and not entirely enslaved to sin —even if he submits himself to it and declares rebellion against God, the power of God can free him. What is more, if he remains there, submitted to sin, he never was freed, and remains enslaved to sin.

That's backdrop for what the Reformed call the Ordo Salutis. If you know me well enough, you know I believe God exists "outside of time". Certainly he is not encumbered by it; it is a tool of his own design. One thing following another temporally does not necessarily translate to the same thing following the other causally. We know from the Scriptures above, and from plenty more, that the unsaved CANNOT choose what will please God, and is enslaved to sin, because he WILL NOT. It is his fault. He chooses contrary to God even when he thinks himself to intend otherwise. He is at enmity with God.

So, as John 3 says, he MUST be born from above. This is described many different ways in Scripture, but for now, it is enough to call it raising them from death to life. Most of us would call that the first step, though it is admitted that election came before, temporally. I say it makes no difference to God, who is not encumbered by time. He spoke the truth into being—he has chosen some, for his own purposes, to show them mercy undeserved, saving them from their sins and taking them to Heaven to be his people. (Rev 21:3) Thus, for his own sake, he CAUSES them to be born again by placing his Holy Spirit within them, at his own timing. I can't even say this is necessarily a sudden thing, temporally, but it is definite, causally. Apart from the Spirit of God in us, we cannot have valid faith. We believe, before (causally) we even choose to believe. The ability to repent is granted us before we even choose to repent.

As far as I'm concerned, his choosing them and his regenerating them are one and the same purpose, the work of the Spirit in establishing this new creature. The faith through which we are saved is generated by the Spirit of God, or it is not valid. (Thus also, it is entirely valid in whatever measure we have it! We can nurture it, we can stymie it, but we can't kill it.) This necessarily also results in all the subsequent virtues—sorrow, repentance, submission, joy, fellowship in Christ and so on.

Maybe you've experienced as I have, unendingly it seems, until it mocks me, the fitfulness of human repentance. A good study of the nature of God not only demonstrates that only HE can give us real repentance, and that, indeed, if he does not, it is false. He is not mocked! And a good study of logical causation shows that anything real we do is established by God at the outset. If God did not cause it to come to be, it cannot happen. And, as we know Christ to have said, and it was not hyperbole, "Apart from me you can do nothing."

You asked how can the regenerated do evil? He is able to disobey. The transformation is at the core, but the "old man" still is active within him, warring against him all the time. As John Owen wrote, "Be killing sin, or it will be killing you." Paul enjoins us to die to sin. The unregenerate can choose to do that, but is nevertheless unable to do it.

throughfierytrial · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
You said: "That being said there is a conscious effort to undertake to repent …do an about-face…to conform to God’s will". —Amen that!
Then you said, "The incomprehensible issue is where in this new relationship…God in us/indwelling us… do I a person begin and where do I end." I guess it would be cheap of me to argue that since you don't try to resolve the question of God being first causer with man somehow being an uncaused causer also, if I then said, "It's a mystery! You should be happy with that!" But there's an easier and better answer: "Why do you need to know that? Nevertheless, you begin where God causes. Repentance is also a gift of God, and if you don't do it, you don't belong to him. And he will work in you both to will and to do whatever he has in mind to do with you."

I'm guessing you asked the question, "where [do I] begin and where do I end", because you understand at this point what TULIP's Irresistible Grace means. The truth is that the Spirit does as it will. (John 3 again) Some people just one day realize they believe. Others, it may be years. Most people, it seems, are overwhelmed immediately or at least pray repentance and submission, emotionally or not. The depth of understanding and emotion is no indication of the quality of the faith. The quality of faith is by God. But all believers are in Christ, and no longer 'belong to themselves'. You don't 'take over the reins', now able to do it right. They don't obey separately from Christ's work in them. It's not only that they are motivated and decide accordingly, but that their very will has been transformed. Where before everything they did was at enmity with God, now their heart has been transformed, and they are no longer at enmity, so they are ABLE to obey and to walk with Christ, growing in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Your identity is IN CHRIST.

You said: "There are many warnings given to the NT Christian. Don’t be lukewarm, not to put out the Spirit’s fire, struggle against the flesh, exercise self-control …. On and on." —Absolutely! Problem? Whether from fear, love, pain, admiration, worship or sorrow, your will wants Christ and his righteousness. If you are sealed 'in Christ' by the Spirit of God, you need him, whether you always feel it or not.

You said: "But, God saves us by grace and God willing we do not become Godless like Esau who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup. (a somber reminder)" For sure!

You also had said: "You may be describing a once saved always saved relationship with God.??? I do not subscribe to that belief." I subscribe to the principle it was probably intended to describe when the phrase was coined, but I very much dislike the implications people draw from it, so I don't teach it. Jesus Christ will not lose even one of those the Father gave to him. It is a sure thing. But it is not automatic. All the evidences of the truth of it MUST be done. And I pray God that he will count me faithful. What God has begun he will complete.

I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I agree with most of you have said but was looking for some clarification maybe as to whether or not Christians can fall to their distruction. True believers cannot …they are looking to God and His mercy and forgiveness and repent…as presumably Peter did as mentioned in Galatians. (as well as His denial).
Where we begin and end? Just a comment to say we still sin.
Once we are born again the old self is buried/drown… as our baptism reminds.
We are granted the Holy Spirit, filled with joy and thanksgiving and enabled to do good works. We live by love according to the New Way pleasing the Spirit not the flesh. We are not to put out the Spirit’s fire and in so doing live to please the flesh.
I believed this was your view, but began to doubt you judging by one of your posts… thinking it was the one I responded to. I’m not always up on ALL the posts as thoroughly I I should be.
Godspeed!

Jan001 · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
As you know, or would probably have guessed, I believe in TULIP's "Total Depravity", or as some proponents prefer it, "Total Inability". I'm not going to bog this down with a lot of passages to the point, but there are MANY. As always, Ephesians 2 speaks of being dead in sin, and Romans 8 speaks of the inability for the mind of the flesh to please God. In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not." The sinner knows it is sin, but doesn't have to ability to do what is without sin. This is reaffirmed in the charge that salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the will of the lost. At the very core, all he can do is at enmity with God, which defines sinfulness. Whether he chooses good or bad, it is still done in sin. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Humankind suffers the consequences of Adam's grievous sin, the physical death of the body and concupiscence—an ardent longing, typically one that is sensually sinful—but this is not total depravity.

There were many righteous people who never committed a grievous sin like Adam did, or else they repented of it, becoming righteous again. Noah is one example of a righteous person. David is another. Genesis 6:9, Acts 13:22

Humans inherited Adam's sin in their souls. This is how "all have sinned." Jesus Christ, the son of God, was sent to earth to sacrificially redeem humankind from Adam's sin so that the righteous people's spirits who were residing in Abraham's bosom in Hades could enter into eternal life with God to await the resurrection of their bodies on the Last Day. Luke 16:22, Matthew 27:53, Revelation 20:4-6

Before the Law of Moses was put in force, God's law was in force—to love God above all others and to do no harm to other people. Matthew 7:12, Genesis 4:8

After the Law of Moses was put in force, there were 600+ additional commandments for the Israelites to obey.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

Without God's grace, humans could not exist. With God's grace they can choose to live to do God's purpose for them. Philippians 2:13

In our flesh alone, "there dwelleth no good thing." God grants to each person the necessary grace to call on him and be saved through baptism. Mark 16:16, Revelation 3:20

Until the natural man is crucified with Christ and becomes a spiritual man, he thinks of himself and what he wants. Galatians 5:22-25

With God's grace, he can do good things in Jesus' name. 1 Peter 2:4-6, Romans 6:4

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

John 14:12
Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

throughfierytrial · Jun 30, 2026

throughfierytrial said:
I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I agree with most of you have said but was looking for some clarification maybe as to whether or not Christians can fall to their distruction. True believers cannot …they are looking to God and His mercy and forgiveness and repent…as presumably Peter did as mentioned in Galatians. (as well as His denial).
Where we begin and end? Just a comment to say we still sin.
Once we are born again the old self is buried/drown… as our baptism reminds.
We are granted the Holy Spirit, filled with joy and thanksgiving and enabled to do good works. We live by love according to the New Way pleasing the Spirit not the flesh. We are not to put out the Spirit’s fire and in so doing live to please the flesh.
I believed this was your view, but began to doubt you judging by one of your posts… thinking it was the one I responded to. I’m not always up on ALL the posts as thoroughly I I should be.
Godspeed!

I should add that I do believe in depravity of man before salvation.

throughfierytrial said:
I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I agree with most of you have said but was looking for some clarification maybe as to whether or not Christians can fall to their destruction. True believers cannot …they are looking to God and His mercy and forgiveness and repent…as presumably Peter did as mentioned in Galatians. (as well as His denial).
Where we begin and end? Just a comment to say we still sin.
Once we are born again the old self is buried/drown… as our baptism reminds.
We are granted the Holy Spirit, filled with joy and thanksgiving and enabled to do good works. We live by love according to the New Way pleasing the Spirit not the flesh. We are not to put out the Spirit’s fire and in so doing live to please the flesh.
I believed this was your view but began to doubt you judging by one of your posts… thinking it was the one I responded to. I’m not always up on ALL the posts as thoroughly I I should be.
Godspeed!

I agree with the fact that man is without ability to come to Christ unless the Father draws him and that while we were still sinners Christ died for us....
John 6:44
Romans 8:30
Romans 5:8
Ephesians 2:8-9

Mark Quayle · Jun 30, 2026

Jan001 said:
Humankind suffers the consequences of Adam's grievous sin, the physical death of the body and concupiscence—an ardent longing, typically one that is sensually sinful—but this is not total depravity.

True, that is not total depravity. That's only part of it.

Jan001 said:
There were many righteous people who never committed a grievous sin like Adam did, or else they repented of it, becoming righteous again. Noah is one example of a righteous person. David is another. Genesis 6:9, Acts 13:22

You just told me part of total depravity and now you are saying there are righteous people (apparently you mean that don't need regeneration to be righteous. Further, you differentiate between grievous sin and not-so-bad, as if sin can be not-so-bad. If you break the law in one detail, you have broken the whole law. I'm not saying that all crime against God is the same. I'm saying that there is no such thing as not so bad sin.

Jan001 said:
Humans inherited Adam's sin in their souls. This is how "all have sinned." Jesus Christ, the son of God, was sent to earth to sacrificially redeem humankind from Adam's sin so that the righteous people's spirits who were residing in Abraham's bosom in Hades could enter into eternal life with God to await the resurrection of their bodies on the Last Day. Luke 16:22, Matthew 27:53, Revelation 20:4-6

Before the Law of Moses was put in force, God's law was in force—to love God above all others and to do no harm to other people. Matthew 7:12, Genesis 4:8

After the Law of Moses was put in force, there were 600+ additional commandments for the Israelites to obey.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

Without God's grace, humans could not exist. With God's grace they can choose to live to do God's purpose for them. Philippians 2:13

You probably do not see there, where you've added to what it says.

Jan001 said:
In our flesh alone, "there dwelleth no good thing." God grants to each person the necessary grace to call on him and be saved through baptism. Mark 16:16, Revelation 3:20

You probably do not see there, where you've added to what it says.

Jan001 said:
Until the natural man is crucified with Christ and becomes a spiritual man, he thinks of himself and what he wants. Galatians 5:22-25

Yes, total depravity.

Jan001 said:
With God's grace, he can do good things in Jesus' name. 1 Peter 2:4-6, Romans 6:4

Once he is crucified with Christ, yes.

Jan001 said:
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

John 14:12
Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

Once he is crucified with Christ, yes.

fhansen · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
I don't know if you assume, as many do, that he loves everyone just as much and in the same way and for the same reasons. That he's not particular about anyone, and chose everyone equally to be saved.

But, his love is not like ours. We can't hold him to our notions of what comprises love, or represents it, or what it is. GOD is love. He defines it—we do not. Furthermore, he didn't make all this for mankind's sake, to see what would come of it. He made it all for HIS OWN SAKE and includes us in it, which is more than any of us deserve. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."(Romans 11:36)

Oh, no- we know much about love now, much more than we did before He chose to come here, at least. It's a matter of coming to know and to appreciate that love-and be changed by it. He demonstrated it on the cross. loving the world so much that He'd lay His own life down in human flesh for our sake while we were yet sinners-John 3:16, Rom 5:8, 1 John 2:2.

If anything, Christ’s chief purpose was to demonstrate a love that Paul, for one, came to know, God wanting us "to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." Eph 3:18-19.

And Paul gets quite descriptive about what that love "looks like" in 1 Cor 13:4-8. That goes a long way in describing the nature of God-at least to the extent that we might begin to grasp it. That love is truthfully what makes turning to God so compelling, as we return the love that He's shown us, 1 John 4:19. That love should be the chief hallmark of the reborn-and, if we have it, we can't help but know what it is, imperfect as it might still be in us.

Mark Quayle said:
That's pretty vague. Maybe you can be more specific how that works, when Romans 8 says they can't do anything to please God, before Christ by the Spirit of God has set us free from the law of sin.

I've already mentioned it, more than once. God can move us, awaken us, coax us , draw us, appeal to us-He simply won't force us, by any other word for making us do whatever it is that you think He causes us do. As we respond to that grace, that work of the Spirit, as we then draw near, He's able to begin a work within us, a work only possible in His purview to the extent that we become His people, grafted into the Vine:
"I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;
and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:33

That's grace. And it's meant to grow, the relationship becoming more strong and secure, and the fruits becoming more evident.

Mark Quayle said:
But we see at least two different sort of things we describe as God's will, as I demonstrated in the post you are answering here. You seem to think his will can only mean his command.

I just think He's not goIng to command something that's not in line with His will. Would He will disobedience?

Mark Quayle said:
Don't be sorry. I think very highly of him. He had a LOT of worthwhile things to say. Sounds to me there like Augustine would agree with me, then, that God intended Adam to sin.

Only if He intends evil. We just need to be careful to be aware of and defend God's holiness, His opposition to sin, with sin being something inherently exclusive of Himself and the nature of love.

Mark Quayle said:
Where do you read that recorded? Or are you inferring it from his command? Which kind of will was that? See what I'm saying—God intended one thing to happen, but commanded the other, which was disobeyed.

see the last two replies above

Mark Quayle said:
For what it is worth, a lot of Reformed and Calvinists use that phrase, too—"allow evil"—but I don't like it as it seems to lend some kind of power to evil to do things apart from God's control.

I like it because it more closely aligns with God's opposition to sin. He does give evil a level of control, a freedom to go against His will, to play out its hand for a time, for a season-that freedom, again, is the only reason evil can exist at all. So evil is given a time, for it to convince us of its superiority over God's will-because that's the door Adam opened-a door which led to a world where man is free to do whatever he's capable of doing and whatever he thinks is right for himself in the moment, where man's will reigns instead of God's for all practical purposes, at least until we turn back to and bow before Him, jaded by and repenting of and turning away from the evil that Adam's world pollutes us all with. Again, the experience in this world is part of God's revelation: that we ultimately need Him first above all else.

Think of it this way. No part of creation, no matter how great He could make it, could/would ever attain to His infinite perfection; He can't make another God, IOW. So giving free will to creation, to man, to Adam, carries a huge risk, simply because of the inherent imperfection of that created being. If He leaves it without a rational mind and free will, like a dog, for example, it will behave perfectly according to its created nature. Only men and angels are able to act outside of their natures, outside of God’s will for them, IOW. And we can see examples of this every time we set foot outside our doors, or read the news, or even take an honest look inside ourselves and our relationships now and then. Human imperfection, due to man being apart from, alienated from, God, manifests itself everywhere.

But no one’s a total zombie, even if some seem to be aspiring towards that goal

, but we all still have the “natural law" somewhere buried inside, our consciences trying to tell us right from wrong, and we’re still able to respond to whatever revelation and grace is seeking to draw us to Him. Because our apartness from Him is the whole problem; that’s the essence of the state sometimes called “original sin”. Man’s perfection, unlike a dog’s "perfection", comes only by virtue of his nearness, his conscious nearness, his willing nearness, to God. And so bringing us back to God is exactly what human history, human “salvation history”, is all about, a patient work of God's to bring His world back to Himself, back to justice/ righteousness and beyond, to a love so wide and vast and deep that it brings only fathomlessly deep well-being, a peace beyond understanding, exaltation, elation, unbridled happiness. That’s what God wants for man, that’s who God is. We’re here to learn that apart from Him we can do nothing, John 15:5, apart from Love we are nothing 1 Cor 13:2. He wants us to be something, to share in His goodness. That’s the nature of love to begin with.

Man is hard-headed, and at least a bit hard-hearted. We just don't readily get just how good God is, often despite our pious words.

As man comes to know and turn full circle back to God and away from sin, God's world is being recreated-or finally and fully created. And so it's our willingness, and increasing willingness, that He's actually after, that He seeks to draw from us and cultivate within us.

zoidar · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
The Law of Causation says that all effects are caused. There is nothing that we can do that is not caused, nor can we ourselves be uncaused. So even if you say we are entirely spontaneous in our decisions, THAT is also caused since we are caused. Thus, a logical self-contradiction. Thus, we are not able to do anything uncaused.

Does the Law of Causation really say that? I would say it depends what we mean by the Law of Causation. If it only means that every event has a cause, then that doesn't by itself rule out free libertarian will. It's not like free libertarians believers generally say choices are uncaused, we claim that free choices are not determined by a prior cause. Also quantum mechanics seem to say not everything is strictly deterministic.

Mark Quayle said:
If our choice is influenced, that influence necessarily causes, one way or another, rejection, consideration, acceptance, dismay, etc etc etc

God created with full knowledge of the consequences, yes? When God spoke his creation into existence, that —all of it— is his decree. We accept that he did not "author" sin, (depending on what you mean by the word, 'author'). If he caused, but did not author, then he caused that there be sin, and he caused every incidence of it to be. But the principles (delight and desire and habit and on and on) and the individuals that sin on their own, are also caused to be. All the circumstances by which we sin, are caused to be. But, as Joseph said to his brothers, "You indeed intended it for evil, but God intended it for good." God intended every evil sin for a good end; if there were no sin, there would be no redemption. But the individual that sins is the cause of his own decisions, for good or for evil, but that individual is not the only cause of his decisions.

James says, "...each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;" There is where sin begins.

Yes, the means are determined. I'm just showing a degree of separation. But let me get a little severe here, or clinical. By definition God does not sin—not just because he is not evil-natured, but because by definition, sin is against God, and it is illogical to suppose that he would be against himself. What God does, then, is never against himself, and never against his purposes. All he made serves his purposes. There he is, in his own economy —his own level, so to speak— that we can't even access, nevermind dwell in. I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that he authors sin; instead, I am forced to admit that he causes that there be sin. I can see no way around it. Even if I agreed about libertarian free will, which (to my knowledge) all proponents of it —Christians, that is— say it is God's gift, (or words to that effect), then I would have to say that God caused that free will, and whatever comes of that free will (in this case, sin) is therefore caused to be.

True, it depends what we mean by "author". God being the causer of sin is to me very foreign to my world view and Biblical reading. It's what I meant by God being the author of sin in the Calvinistic system. God is in other words the reason sin exists? I would say free libertarian will is the reason sin exist. I see no good reason for God to decree the existence of sin, the very thing He hates.

Mark Quayle said:
The severe part is that God will do everything it takes to complete the product he intended from the beginning. And what is needed was more severe than any of us realize; and he has every right to do so. We are not completed yet.

It sounds to me like God wanted His Son to die for sin, and since sin didn't exist, He had to create sin. To me it sounds like nonsense and it makes a spectacle out of God, with all due respect. It's very far from my view of the God I love.

Mark Quayle said:
You may remember me talking about atheists sometimes asking, "If God is omnipotent, why didn't he just speak Heaven and the Bride, etc into instantaneous existence—why drag us through this mess?" And I respond, "Maybe he did speak it instantaneously into existence, and this is how it came to be. This life is not for this life."

It at least sounds like you agree, then, that he decreed some specific sinful acts. Good. If he can do that, and yet not be the author of sin, then he can decree any sinful act without being the author of sin.

I have not really thought that much about it. Not sure if I believe God decreed some sinful acts or not. Anyhow, you are making a logical jump from decreeing the existence of sin and decreeing a sinful act.

Let's say God decrees and causes existence of an harmless insect and it gets agressive and gets an illness by some fruit on a tree. The Illness of the insect is then spread all over the world. Then God decrees the agressive insect to sting a person to make a cure to save everyone. It's not at all the same thing decreeing and causing the sick insect to sting a person to make a cure, as decreeing and causing the sickness to the insect in the first place. In the first case God is not responsible for people dying from the insect, in the second case I would put the responsibilty on God.

Mark Quayle · Jun 30, 2026

zoidar said:
Does the Law of Causation really say that? I would say it depends what we mean by the Law of Causation. If it only means that every event has a cause, then that doesn't by itself rule out free libertarian will. It's not like free libertarians believers generally say choices are uncaused, we claim that free choices are not determined by a prior cause. Also quantum mechanics seem to say not everything is strictly deterministic.

If something is caused, it is determined by prior cause(s). If anything feeds into an effect, it caused that effect, one way or another. That doesn't mean that there were not other things that also caused it (fed into it). (I'd guess there are at this point in history billions or more causes, links in the chains of causation, that result in each little thing that happens. In fact, if we reduce everything physical down to it's smallest component(s), the number causal links are mind-bogglingly enormous. As a human being, I don't know enough to say that the metaphysical does or does not have similar numbers, but it seems considerably more simple from this POV.)

Quantum mechanics is a description—merely a way to look at naturalism/physics, or more specifically, a way to assess what we have observed and that we theorize about in order to understand. Science depends on cause-and-effect. They go into "probability" and find all sorts of math because QM is about predicting and proving (understanding) what happens. That we are unable to reliably predict, drives us into the "I don't know" of "chance". We use words, like, "random", which only means that we don't yet know the cause or that we are not able to predict.

zoidar said:
True, it depends what we mean by "author". God being the causer of sin is to me very foreign to my world view and Biblical reading. It's what I meant by God being the author of sin in the Calvinistic system. God is in other words the reason sin exists? I would say free libertarian will is the reason sin exist. I see no good reason for God to decree the existence of sin, the very thing He hates.

I see here the same problem you began with, where you don't distinguish between "a cause" and "the cause" in causation. Either one is sufficient to show determination, no matter how much will is involved in deciding. But they are not the same thing. To say that God is THE cause, is to imply that there are no other causes. Not so. He is the first cause. But by definition he does not sin. And also by definition—that is, by character or attribute—he is perfectly pure and holy, and will not abide sin. So, no, it is beyond the pale to say he is the author of sin. So I don't.

But he doesn't leave us with the mental contradictions unanswered. James tells us from where sins begin, and where evil 'resides'.

God is the first reason that there is anything —sin included, if it can be called 'a thing'. But he is far from the only reason. And he uses all reasons (causes) for his own reasons (purposes). That is what the Calvinistic call His "decree".

(Aside: It is an interesting study, but to me it still feels a little like an excuse, to say that sin is not properly a "thing". I don't generally use that to show that God is not the author of sin, but it may be a valid argument, done right. But I don't need it to show he is not the author of sin.)

zoidar said:
It sounds to me like God wanted His Son to die for sin, and since sin didn't exist, He had to create sin. To me it sounds like nonsense and it makes a spectacle out of God, with all due respect. It's very far from my view of the God I love.

It's quite a distance from what I believe, too. For one thing, that characterization assumes God reasons like we do—that to do this he had to come up with that, so that something else would come about, etc etc. And that characterization implies that God must consider possibilities and options. To the contrary, God is the cause from which everything else begins and continues causally. He does not exist within nor submit to a larger reality. Reality is HIS 'invention'. Thus, he has no options as such, though he is not restricted. He need not consider the possibilities, no matter how we speculate how he "chose" to do what he did/does. He needs no options—as a brother of mine puts it, God is "pure actuality". He doesn't operate according to our mentality nor our necessary anthropomorphisms. Consider, for example, the likelihood that for him to think is to do, and to speak is to create. We don't operate on that level.

zoidar said:
I have not really thought that much about it. Not sure if I believe God decreed some sinful acts or not. Anyhow, you are making a logical jump from decreeing the existence of sin and decreeing a sinful act.

It does logically follow. Lol, check it with AI. Meanwhile, it is scriptural; here's an example: Acts 2: "23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

zoidar said:
Let's say God decrees and causes existence of an harmless insect and it gets agressive and gets an illness by some fruit on a tree. The Illness of the insect is then spread all over the world. Then God decrees the agressive insect to sting a person to make a cure to save everyone. It's not at all the same thing decreeing and causing the sick insect to sting a person to make a cure, as decreeing and causing the sickness to the insect in the first place. In the first case God is not responsible for people dying from the insect, in the second case I would put the responsibilty on God.

No. That would be to slough the use of the word, "responsible", and to blur the lines between cause and blame. By definition, anything God does goes to his credit. The hard things of life are to God's credit. ("I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7)

fhansen · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
As you know, or would probably have guessed, I believe in TULIP's "Total Depravity", or as some proponents prefer it, "Total Inability". I'm not going to bog this down with a lot of passages to the point, but there are MANY. As always, Ephesians 2 speaks of being dead in sin, and Romans 8 speaks of the inability for the mind of the flesh to please God. In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not." The sinner knows it is sin, but doesn't have to ability to do what is without sin. This is reaffirmed in the charge that salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the will of the lost. At the very core, all he can do is at enmity with God, which defines sinfulness. Whether he chooses good or bad, it is still done in sin. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

By contrast, the born again is no longer at the core sinful, so whatever he does, whether sin or obedience, he remains at the core, redeemed, and not entirely enslaved to sin —even if he submits himself to it and declares rebellion against God, the power of God can free him. What is more, if he remains there, submitted to sin, he never was freed, and remains enslaved to sin.

That's backdrop for what the Reformed call the Ordo Salutis. If you know me well enough, you know I believe God exists "outside of time". Certainly he is not encumbered by it; it is a tool of his own design. One thing following another temporally does not necessarily translate to the same thing following the other causally. We know from the Scriptures above, and from plenty more, that the unsaved CANNOT choose what will please God, and is enslaved to sin, because he WILL NOT. It is his fault. He chooses contrary to God even when he thinks himself to intend otherwise. He is at enmity with God.

So, as John 3 says, he MUST be born from above. This is described many different ways in Scripture, but for now, it is enough to call it raising them from death to life. Most of us would call that the first step, though it is admitted that election came before, temporally. I say it makes no difference to God, who is not encumbered by time. He spoke the truth into being—he has chosen some, for his own purposes, to show them mercy undeserved, saving them from their sins and taking them to Heaven to be his people. (Rev 21:3) Thus, for his own sake, he CAUSES them to be born again by placing his Holy Spirit within them, at his own timing. I can't even say this is necessarily a sudden thing, temporally, but it is definite, causally. Apart from the Spirit of God in us, we cannot have valid faith. We believe, before (causally) we even choose to believe. The ability to repent is granted us before we even choose to repent.

Two issues with this. One is that election is a hypothetical for any given person, so, from our perspective, we must continue to have a healthy level of concern as to whether or not we are numbered among the elect, and be vigilant, make effort, etc, not depending solely on God to “make that happen” without our participating desire to make it happen. Yes, the elect, by definition, will be saved-but knowing precisely who they are is another matter.

The second is that the line between the non-reborn and the reborn is more blurry than you may prefer to think. That’s why the reborn also sin, in fact; sin identifies one who is not totally on board with God, not perfected in love to put it another way. The parable of the soils addresses this because it speaks about different persons, all being moved and changed by God’s word and their encounter with His Son but some not continuing on, not persevering for one reason or another.

And however one looks at this, a related question that most seem to avoid arises: How much or what gravity of sin/deeds of the flesh should cause one to think that a person 1) never was reborn to begin with, or 2) was reborn/saved but stopped caring and turned back away from God? The difference in how those questions are phrased is dependent on one's theology- but are effectively the same question either way.

Mark Quayle said:
The faith through which we are saved is generated by the Spirit of God, or it is not valid. (Thus also, it is entirely valid in whatever measure we have it! We can nurture it, we can stymie it, but we can't kill it.)

Why not? What we really know, by definition, is that those who truly have it and don’t kill it are the elect.

Mark Quayle said:
"Be killing sin, or it will be killing you."

Amen

Mark Quayle · Jun 30, 2026

fhansen said:
Two issues with this. One is that election is a hypothetical for any given person, so, from our perspective, we must continue to have a healthy level of concern as to whether or not we are numbered among the elect, and be vigilant, make effort, etc, not depending solely on God to “make that happen” without our participating desire to make it happen. Yes, the elect, by definition, will be saved-but knowing precisely who they are is another matter.

Election is not hypothetical for any person, except to a person's consideration. That is, from God's point-of-view, their election (or non-election) is a sure thing whether or not that person has been chosen [and that, from the foundation of the world.] It's a little like the quantum mechanics in that our descriptions use the question of probability, not because a thing is actually probable or improbable, but only that we don't know enough to make sure predictions. But God knows.

The thing is, that whether or not God has chosen anyone upon whom to show mercy, is not up to the person to effect, but to walk with God, pursuing Christ, and to love the Lord their God with all their heart, and to love their neighbor as themselves. And if they are not elect, their every action has enmity with God at the core—yet, (and this is one thing that demonstrates God's mercy even in reprobation), their attempts do restrain the flesh, (though for some, the attempts drive them to further condemnation by rebellion against conscience.)

fhansen said:
The second is that the line between the non-reborn and the reborn is more blurry than you may prefer to think. That’s why the reborn also sin, in fact; sin identifies one who is not totally on board with God, not perfected in love to put it another way. The parable of the soils addresses this because it speaks about different persons, all being moved and changed by God’s word and their encounter with His Son but some not continuing on, not persevering for one reason or another.

I disagree with that use of the parable of the soils, but, nevertheless, the difference between re-born and not re-born is not as well apprehended by human understanding as it should be. By that, I mean that MY assessments there fall short of God's, just as my notions of the horror of my sin and the validity of my repentance fall outside of what God sees: We cannot know the seriousness of sin: Being mere creatures without full knowledge of the Almighty, we don't take it as seriously as we should. Yet we take ourselves much more seriously than he does, he knowing that we are but dust—that we are children at best. Fitful, ignorant, emotional, silly, self-centered. We don't know what we are playing with.

fhansen said:
And however one looks at this, a related question that most seem to avoid arises: How much or what gravity of sin/deeds of the flesh should cause one to think that a person 1) never was reborn to begin with, or 2) was reborn/saved but stopped caring and turned back away from God? The difference in how those questions are phrased is dependent on one's theology- but are effectively the same question either way.

Why not? What we really know, by definition, is that those who truly have it and don’t kill it are the elect.

Amen

For reference, since the paragraphs have been separated, I will mention the "it" you are referring to that the elect don't kill is the work of the Spirit of God, as I understand you to mean —and as I mean, salvific faith, generated inside our hearts by the Spirit of God and not by us silly ignorant unsubstantial inconsistent humans.

I hope you can begin to see the huge difference between the two views.

One assumes a worth to humans, endemic to all of them, that validly operates outside of God's gentle but omnipotent influence/control. It tries to live up to what is required.

The other longs for God to be our very righteousness because we have nothing, can do nothing and are nothing apart from him. These NEED to live for God, they need Christ.

fhansen · Jun 30, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
Election is not hypothetical for any person, except to a person's consideration. That is, from God's point-of-view, their election (or non-election) is a sure thing whether or not that person has been chosen [and that, from the foundation of the world.]

And I've said nothing otherwise.

Mark Quayle said:
The thing is, that whether or not God has chosen anyone upon whom to show mercy, is not up to the person to effect, but to walk with God, pursuing Christ, and to love the Lord their God with all their heart, and to love their neighbor as themselves. And if they are not elect, their every action has enmity with God at the core—yet, (and this is one thing that demonstrates God's mercy even in reprobation), their attempts do restrain the flesh, (though for some, the attempts drive them to further condemnation by rebellion against conscience.)

As I said, no one can know with absolute certainty. But their fruit, primarily. and continuance in it, is the best testimony.

Mark Quayle said:
I disagree with that use of the parable of the soils, but, nevertheless, the difference between re-born and not re-born is not as well apprehended by human understanding as it should be. By that, I mean that MY assessments there fall short of God's, just as my notions of the horror of my sin and the validity of my repentance fall outside of what God sees: We cannot know the seriousness of sin: Being mere creatures without full knowledge of the Almighty, we don't take it as seriously as we should. Yet we take ourselves much more seriously than he does, he knowing that we are but dust—that we are children at best. Fitful, ignorant, emotional, silly, self-centered. We don't know what we are playing with.

Yes, it's said that the holier a person becomes, the more aware of their sin they are-and the uglier it appears to them.

Mark Quayle said:
For reference, since the paragraphs have been separated, I will mention the "it" you are referring to that the elect don't kill is the work of the Spirit of God, as I understand you to mean —and as I mean, salvific faith, generated inside our hearts by the Spirit of God and not by us silly ignorant unsubstantial inconsistent humans.

Yes, we can kill that. We can prefer ignorance and inconsistency and darkness and weakness and sin and the flesh and the cares or attractions of the world and the opinion of other's over God's opinion, and pride, self-glory, etc, etc.

Mark Quayle said:
One assumes a worth to humans, endemic to all of them, that validly operates outside of God's gentle but omnipotent influence/control. It tries to live up to what is required.

The other longs for God to be our very righteousness because we have nothing, can do nothing and are nothing apart from him. These NEED to live for God, they need Christ.

It's not either/or but both/and, as God would have it. He works in mysterious ways, and assigns value to His creation however He pleases according to His will and plan, not ours-even though He needs none of us and could annihilate us with a thought.

Mark Quayle · Jun 30, 2026

fhansen said:
And I've said nothing otherwise.

As I said, no one can know with absolute certainty. But their fruit, primarily. and continuance in it, is the best testimony.

I agree it is the best external testimony. But, as you said next (and I agree),

fhansen said:
Yes, it's said that the holier a person becomes, the more aware of their sin they are-and the uglier it appears to them.

And that's in part what continues to drive the believer to seek Christ and his righteousness. Internally, I find 3 things to be reassuring, or 4: 1. God never lets me go long out of fellowship. 2. His Spirit "witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God". 3. I find within me the NEED for Christ. And finally, 4. God has taken from me the pursuit of mitigating my fear of reprobation, and replaced it with admiration and joy and anticipation of being with him—even more, that even should I have fooled myself this whole time, that God is still to be admired and praised for his glorious majesty. Obedience is not so much anymore a matter of "measuring up". It is a matter of fellowship and need.

fhansen said:
Yes, we can kill that. We can prefer ignorance and inconsistency and darkness and weakness and sin and the flesh and the cares or attractions of the world and the opinion of other's over God's opinion, and pride, self-glory, etc, etc.

If we do, we were never his. He will lose not one. John 6:39

fhansen said:
It's not either/or but both/and, as God would have it. He works in mysterious ways, and assigns value to His creation however He pleases according to His will and plan, not ours-even though He needs none of us and could annihilate us with a thought.

What I mean is that apart from him we can do nothing. No hyperbole there. It is not just cooperation, but utter involvement.

fhansen · Jul 1, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
If we do, we were never his. He will lose not one. John 6:39

Well, we don't even know who "those" were that the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:39 but either way we can be His, and then not be His, and so He warned us in John 15:
"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Mark Quayle said:
What I mean is that apart from him we can do nothing. No hyperbole there. It is not just cooperation, but utter involvement.

Ok, utter involvement, if we want to be and remain utterly involved-because it's not "automatic", as we agreed.

Mark Quayle · Jul 1, 2026

fhansen said:
Well, we don't even know who "those" were that the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:39 but either way we can be His, and then not be His, and so He warned us in John 15:
"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Ok, utter involvement, if we want to be and remain utterly involved-because it's not "automatic", as we agreed.

Fair enough.

Is Salvation a choice? If it is, whose choice is it ?

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Oldbie

Oldbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Truth-Lover

Striving to win the prize...

Truth-Lover

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Oldbie

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Oldbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Oldbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Oldbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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