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Conquest... is it ever justified???

2PhiloVoid

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But you don't think it is common ???

It doesn't matter if it's common. In the Christian Philosophy section, we want to know if it's right and correct, rational and true, not simply if it's "biblically abstracted." And so, as philosophers do, we'll make evaluations of statements and offer answers, hopefully, logically induced answers, not those that rely purely on selected and commonly held truisms.

Moreover, nowhere in the Bible is an interpretive viewpoint said to depend on one's preference in politics. No, it requires deeper and more critical thinking, especially where an ancient set of Hebrew/Israelite books is to be applied to today's politics.
 
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Lukaris

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So the Nature of God has not changed between Covenants but His behaviors have ?
Doesn’t it all come down to how He speaks to us in His forbearance as to how & when we are able to bear & receive His gift of salvation ( Hebrews 1:1-4, John 3:16-21, 1 Corinthians 13:4-13, Colossians 1:10-24 etc.)?

Our behaviors should be the same ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, Matthew 19:16-26, Romans 13:8-10) but these must be according to grace & faith ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We should not presume to speak for God except according to how He has spoken to us ( Deuteronomy 29:29, Proverbs 16:1-6 etc.).

I am just speaking in the sense of how we should understand our faith in God, not in some kind of presumptuous way or whatever.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Doesn’t it all come down to how He speaks to us in His forbearance as to how & when we are able to bear & receive His gift of salvation ( Hebrews 1:1-4, John 3:16-21, 1 Corinthians 13:4-13, Colossians 1:10-24 etc.)?

Our behaviors should be the same ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, Matthew 19:16-26, Romans 13:8-10) but these must be according to grace & faith ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We should not presume to speak for God except according to how He has spoken to us ( Deuteronomy 29:29, Proverbs 16:1-6 etc.).

I am just speaking in the sense of how we should understand our faith in God, not in some kind of presumptuous way or whatever.

I was more focusing on whether God had changed His mind about conquest and sent Jesus to convey this message. (I don't believe this)
 
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Carl Emerson

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It doesn't matter if it's common. In the Christian Philosophy section, we want to know if it's right and correct, rational and true, not simply if it's "biblically abstracted." And so, as philosophers do, we'll make evaluations of statements and offer answers, hopefully, logically induced answers, not those that rely purely on selected and commonly held truisms.

Moreover, nowhere in the Bible is an interpretive viewpoint said to depend on one's preference in politics. No, it requires deeper and more critical thinking, especially where an ancient set of Hebrew/Israelite books is to be applied to today's politics.
When I submitted my first essay in philosophy, I was told that presenting absolutes was breaking the rules of the discipline.

So 'Philo Void' correctly expresses that philosophy is atheistic by definition.

As such it is a tool not suited to explore spiritual issues.

However some from the Free University of Amsterdam bent the rules and presented a Christian Philosophy with the fact of the resurrection of Jesus at at it's core.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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When I submitted my first essay in philosophy, I was told that presenting absolutes was breaking the rules of the discipline.

So 'Philo Void' correctly expresses that philosophy is atheistic by definition.

As such it is a tool not suited to explore spiritual issues.

However some from the Free University of Amsterdam bent the rules and presented a Christian Philosophy with the fact of the resurrection of Jesus at at it's core.

You don't get to preach at me on this topic, Carl. You are out of your league, so please refrain further from doing so as not to extend the opportunity for others to observe your obviously profound ignorance on the matter.

Again, THIS IS A SECTION OF CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY AND ETHICS. If you don't like this fact, then have this thread moved to where it probably belongs---------------somewhere in the Theology section.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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When I submitted my first essay in philosophy, I was told that presenting absolutes was breaking the rules of the discipline.

So 'Philo Void' correctly expresses that philosophy is atheistic by definition.

As such it is a tool not suited to explore spiritual issues.

However some from the Free University of Amsterdam bent the rules and presented a Christian Philosophy with the fact of the resurrection of Jesus at at it's core.

Carl, I don't even think you understand all of what I've been saying, which is why you're attempting to say whatever it is that you're saying.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Back to topic...

Does the OT narrative support conquest, and if so under what circumstances?

Does the NT eclipse what the OT records of this matter ???

Comments appreciate.

While I can agree with you about the nature of the 'world,' I'm not going to agree with your particular philosophical (Theonomic?) viewpoint about 'Conquest.'

If the Lord wanted to, He could simply send the Angel of Death (or a foreign army) to slay everyone without commanding human beings (especially not Christians) to do the slaying for Him through Herem Warfare.

...................... Theonomy of any form isn't needed. Nor is it appropriate for Christians.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I would think God in the NT eclipses any concepts of conquest. Ephesians 6:10-19 ( especially verse 12) testifies to this as far as I can tell.
OK thanks for that...

What then do we understand from this event ?

Luke 3:14
Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”
 
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Carl Emerson

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While I can agree with you about the nature of the 'world,' I'm not going to agree with your particular philosophical (Theonomic?) viewpoint about 'Conquest.'

If the Lord wanted to, He could simply send the Angel of Death (or a foreign army) to slay everyone without commanding human beings (especially not Christians) to do the slaying for Him through Herem Warfare.

...................... Theonomy of any form isn't needed. Nor is it appropriate for Christians.
What led you to believe I hold such a view?
 
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Lukaris

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OK thanks for that...

What then do we understand from this event ?

Luke 3:14
Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”
I think John the Baptist was probably giving instructions to the soldiers for particular situations they face in war or just general duty as non civilians. This is within the larger preaching in Luke 3:1-14 particularly verses 8 through 14. John seems to tell the publicans particular things to them in Luke 3:12-13. It is interesting that Paul actually gave a comprehensive message that was the same as John the Baptist ( compare Luke 3:8 and Acts 26:20). The aspect of works should be understood within the framework of Ephesians 2:8-10.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What led you to believe I hold such a view?

I didn't say you did. Notice the question mark (?), which should signal you that I was guessing.

Feel free to come right out, though, with what your actual view is.
 
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Unqualified

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He forbears now our sins being patient for everyone to get saved. He is in control but stays out of many people’s circumstances. Like conquest, is loss of a war judgement of who’s right? Might makes right.
evil governments oppress their conquests and don’t seen condemned by God. What would be a theological premise for any of that except false prophets. England and France and all conquerors had their churches on their side. I don’t think they’re saying in America, only a weak voice. But russias church is not for their conquest of Ukraine. I don’t see any great fight with a church when it comes to conquering nations. What church even asks is it right to conquer?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I didn't say you did. Notice the question mark (?), which should signal you that I was guessing.

Feel free to come right out, though, with what your actual view is.
I am not here to argue but explore different opinions.
 
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stevevw

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Most indigenous peoples of the land fought, slaughtered, enslaved and took other indigenous peoples land. All humans done this. This idea of the noble native is unreal. It never happened.

Thats not to justify the taking of peoples lands and killing them.

I wonder if there was no exploration of the world and everyone stayed in their place what would happen. Would there be massive indigneous peoples in the nations conquered. Would they move into the modern world. How would they cope with the big changes in the land. Would they become over populated like all other nations. What then. How do they feed millions ?

I am not sure. But it is what it is. People explored and found untamed lands. To them it was a new world to develop. They may have been colonialist but they also had modern ways of coping with growing populations. We now have better medicine and health and people live longer.

Some of these natives were cannabils and practicing horrific ideas. Much has now been stopped and they have been brought into the modern world.

Though I disagree with the destruction of their cultures and the knowledge they held over 1,000s of years about how to live in harmony with nature and the land. That is something they can teach us.

But I think its unreal that in a modern world that we could have large parts of the world still back in prhistoric times while others are going to the moon and inventing life saving medicine. Its just how humans have developed. They cannot live in caves forever.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Most indigenous peoples of the land fought, slaughtered, enslaved and took other indigenous peoples land. All humans done this. This idea of the noble native is unreal. It never happened.

Thats not to justify the taking of peoples lands and killing them.

I wonder if there was no exploration of the world and everyone stayed in their place what would happen. Would there be massive indigneous peoples in the nations conquered. Would they move into the modern world. How would they cope with the big changes in the land. Would they become over populated like all other nations. What then. How do they feed millions ?

I am not sure. But it is what it is. People explored and found untamed lands. To them it was a new world to develop. They may have been colonialist but they also had modern ways of coping with growing populations. We now have better medicine and health and people live longer.

Some of these natives were cannabils and practicing horrific ideas. Much has now been stopped and they have been brought into the modern world.

Though I disagree with the destruction of their cultures and the knowledge they held over 1,000s of years about how to live in harmony with nature and the land. That is something they can teach us.

But I think its unreal that in a modern world that we could have large parts of the world still back in prhistoric times while others are going to the moon and inventing life saving medicine. Its just how humans have developed. They cannot live in caves forever.
I really appreciate your considered reply.

I might comment that indigenous folk are not always conservationists when it comes to the environment. It is thought that massive fires destroyed the forests in parts of the South Island of NZ unlikely to have been caused by 'natural' events. The midden beds also record a people exhausting the area of food and moving on without thought for regeneration. The suggestion of these people being somehow closer to Eden and interrelated in Love is hard to sustain from evidence.

However the way they were treated was appalling and criminal and the Church largely stood by and watched,
 
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The Liturgist

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Our early pioneers landed and soon signed a treaty with the Crown, the indigenous Maori dwellers, moderated by the Church.

It was an agreement for mutual respect and a partnership to steward the resources. Initially the vast majority of Maori converted to Christianity

Commercial greed and military might, drove Maori out of their lands claiming a conquest and a right to occupy.

The Church was silent about this.

Is conquest theologically justifiable ?

Well, we have to differentiate between a few different things.

In the case of what happened with the Maori, if a treaty was violated without justification, that would not be moral.

In the case of another British colony, India, while the British East India Company’s encroachment was amoral, the attrocity of the Mutiny and the mass-murder of English civilians combined with corruption on the part of the Company was in my opinion justification for establishing the Raj in order to sort out the problem. However the British subsequently abused this policy and the Partition created an on-going threat to world security by creating two nuclear nations that hate each other, India and Pakistan, so that was a failure.

On the other hand some conquests might be justifiable in order to prevent persecution genocides of Christians, or to abolish horrible moral degradation.

For example, let’s say we have a hypothetical country called “Alateria.” Once a colony of a major imperial power, it became a wealthy independent first world country in the late 20th century, a modern liberal democracy. Then it elected a socialist government, which then slowly moved to dismantle the rights of religious people, in particular Christians regardless of denomination, and began imposing forced abortion and euthanasia. In such a case, the conquest of that land in order to remove its government would be morally justified to protect the Christian population from abuse. Additionally it could be justified to deny that land sovereignity until whatever social factors led to the socialist regime that I’ve described being identified and rectified were corrected.

Outside of that very specific hypothetical favor I’m not a fan of conquest; the main rationale for having governments is to maintain defensive forces to prevent conquest and most recent attempts at military expansionism have been disastrous.

The moral basis of this is based purely in Christ’s commands to treat others the way we would be treated, to turn the other cheek (but there exists no prohibtion against defending others), and to love God above all others.

Our actions must be based on this ideal without reference to Old Testament examples which were specific to the Old Covenant which was fulfilled on the Cross.
 
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stevevw

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I really appreciate your considered reply.

I might comment that indigenous folk are not always conservationists when it comes to the environment. It is thought that massive fires destroyed the forests in parts of the South Island of NZ unlikely to have been caused by 'natural' events. The midden beds also record a people exhausting the area of food and moving on without thought for regeneration. The suggestion of these people being somehow closer to Eden and interrelated in Love is hard to sustain from evidence.

However the way they were treated was appalling and criminal and the Church largely stood by and watched,
I remember watching a doco on the south American indigenous peoples such as the Andean cultures around 12,000 years ago. They had sophisticated agricultural practices and it is said they actually enhanced the soil and had a diverse range of crops.

Some say there were a civilisation with 10's of thousands of people interconnected who developed the rainforests. But that is long gone now thanks to western conquestions.

Now that I think about it in some ways there was a world that may have developed to a great height as nations. But in a different way to how we do today. Such as like the Aztecs and Inca's. Then they disappeared.

The bible says that the pre flood world had developed to a peak where they became too great. I am wondering if there was a world before our current known world that was destroyed and we had to start again. We find many remains of megaliths throughout the world and it seems they were pretty sophisticated.
 
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