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Is Salvation a choice? If it is, whose choice is it ?

Jan001

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Let me repeat, that in the final analysis, the only thing that ever happens is what omniscient God knew would happen when he began all this. Nothing else can happen. What we see as possible is enough to call our choosing, "legitimate choice". It doesn't matter whether we could ACTUALLY have chosen it or not. We do not ever choose anything but what is actually chosen. Tautology indeed! :tongueout:

It seems you do not believe in God's gift of free will to choose for oneself whether to know, love, and serve him. What would be the point of providing a salvation plan if all people couldn't freely choose to take advantage of it?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
 
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Jan001

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God's choice...

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We should complete the context of Paul's teaching about how we first receive God's grace of salvation and what we need to do to maintain it, or else we will be led astray:

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.



What is the Father's will?

The Father's will is for us to do the good works that he prepared for each one of us to do in Christ's name before the foundation of the world.

What will be our eternal reward if we do not do these good works before we die?



Matthew 25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

James 1:22
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
 
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Mark Quayle

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How is that different from not being able to resist the Spirit: He doing as He wills with us and all?.
Let me put it two ways. One is that as far as I know we are not even aware that it is happening until it has already happened. Our WILL is changed. That is what he does by taking up residence within us. The other is that even if we were aware and resisting him (as we always do up until he indwells us) He still changes our will by indwelling us, quite apart from any action in that direction by our wills.

I.e. he changes our wills irresistibly. Do you think we have some right to our own being? Do we not belong to him to do with as he pleases?

Lol, I remember watching a video of John MacArthur speaking, telling about things people say or think concerning Irresistible Grace and God regenerating us without asking permission or even consulting us on the matter: "He can't do that! We're Americans!".
 
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Mark Quayle

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It seems you do not believe in God's gift of free will to choose for oneself whether to know, love, and serve him. What would be the point of providing a salvation plan if all people couldn't freely choose to take advantage of it?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
I do believe in God's gift of will. But, "Free", in the sense of uncaused choice, is logically self-contradictory. That is claiming either causation by mere chance, or that we are actually spontaneous in the same way that God is, or both —both of which are self-contradictory. Chance can cause nothing, and there can be only one first causer. If nothing causes our choosing, it can't happen.

But we do choose, no doubt! Something caused it. You will probably say, "Yes! We cause it!", and I agree: Indeed we do. But not uncaused to do so. We are full of contradictory impulses and desires, just for starters. We want this or that, and we go with this or that at will. I don't say otherwise. But those impulses and desires came from somewhere just like our very bodies and minds did. I will even agree we choose for ourselves whether to know, love and serve him. That doesn't mean he does not also choose that from the foundation of the world.

Funny to me how the semi-Arminian believers I grew up with prayed like the Reformed/Calvinist. "And, dear Lord, we pray You would work in his heart, change his mind, cause him to come to know You."

As for Revelation 3:20, it is talking about fellowship in Christ. Indeed it is true, that if anyone hears his voice and opens the door, he will come in and 'fellowship' with him. This is an ongoing thing, and, in fact, if it doesn't happen, that person is not saved.
 
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fhansen

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Let me put it two ways. One is that as far as I know we are not even aware that it is happening until it has already happened. Our WILL is changed. That is what he does by taking up residence within us. The other is that even if we were aware and resisting him (as we always do up until he indwells us) He still changes our will by indwelling us, quite apart from any action in that direction by our wills.

I.e. he changes our wills irresistibly. Do you think we have some right to our own being? Do we not belong to him to do with as he pleases?

Lol, I remember watching a video of John MacArthur speaking, telling about things people say or think concerning Irresistible Grace and God regenerating us without asking permission or even consulting us on the matter: "He can't do that! We're Americans!".
Ok. Well, He obviously doesn't need to consult us for anything; He could've just destined everyone for heaven to begin with, for that matter. Or hell. Or not created us at at all. It's really about what He wants to do, and why He wants to do it that way. My position and that of others here is that grace is resistible, for His highest purposes. Did Adam have a right to his own being? Did God want Adam to disobey when He commanded Adam not to disobey? Did the Spirit of God cause Adam to disobey God?
 
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Jan001

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I do believe in God's gift of will. But, "Free", in the sense of uncaused choice, is logically self-contradictory. That is claiming either causation by mere chance, or that we are actually spontaneous in the same way that God is, or both —both of which are self-contradictory. Chance can cause nothing, and there can be only one first causer. If nothing causes our choosing, it can't happen.

The "first causer" and only causer of salvation is God, and his gift of grace calls every person to repentance and conversion. Romans 10:13, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Luke 5:32

God desires salvation for all people, so he must make this possible; otherwise, he would be like a house divided against itself, which would be contrary to his perfect nature. God provides the necessary grace to each person so he can freely choose to believe and become saved. Luke 11:17, Mark 16:16

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Yes, this idea that fallen man is corrupt at/to the core isn't sound understanding. It would mean that man is as bad/evil as he could possibly be, no redeeming qualties or spark of God's image left in him at all, nothing for God to appeal to which is not the case and not consistent with Scripture taken as a whole. The problem with fallen man is that he has no way, no means to reach up and find God, and bring Him down to himself. That requires grace, God's action.

Man is lost, far from his true home; he can never cause or experience reconciliation with God on his own to put it another way, even if he senses something's wrong, something's missing in this world; God must initiate that.
Yes, I agree with all of that. And that's why I mentioned Romans 10:21 because it shows that God reached out to the Israelites "all day long" in the desire that they believe the gospel. And some of them did. But, most did not. It wasn't because God didn't want them to believe or else Him reaching out to them all day long would make no sense. As you and I know, and as Calvinists deny, God genuinely and sincerely wants all people to repent and to be saved and He offers salvation to all people (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:11, etc.).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My question is about John's use of the word "world" in John 3:16-17 and John 12:47. What contextual evidence is there that "the world" means only the elect or the future redeemed creation? In John's Gospel, "world" normally refers to humanity broadly, including those who reject Christ (see John 3:19 and 12:47). I don't see how appealing to a possible meaning of "world" establishes that John intended that meaning here. There is a good reason to interpret "the world" to include both elect and non elect. We see in John 12:47 that those who do not receive Christ are part of the word "world". So it's reasonable to interpret "world" in John 3:16-17 to also include those who reject Christ.

And again, as the context indicate "the world" refers to both the elect and the non elect. We see, that if that is the case, then God loved even the non elect in such a way that He gave His only begotten Son. What then does that mean? It seems the most natural reading is that God gave His Son for them as well.
Right. Nowhere in John or 1st John does "the world" or "the whole world" ever refer only to the elect. So, why would that be the case in John 3:16-17 and 1 John 2:2? It's not reasonable to draw that conclusion at all.

Also, to support what you're saying about John 3:16 further, the following scripture indicates that the Lord even bought (paid the price for) the false teachers and false prophets that Peter wrote about here...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Ok. Well, He obviously doesn't need to consult us for anything; He could've just destined everyone for heaven to begin with, for that matter. Or hell. Or not created us at at all. It's really about what He wants to do, and why He wants to do it that way. My position and that of others here is that grace is resisitible, for His highest purposes. Did Adam have a right to his own being? Did God want Adam to disobey when He commanded Adam not to disobey? Did the Spirit of God cause Adam to disobey God?
It seems that Calvinists do not consider or they just ignore that God is love (1 John 4:8). What is a God who is love more likely to do? To just save relatively few while having no interest in saving the rest and being pleased to allow them to remain in their lost condition and eventually experiencing His wrath and eternal torment, as Calvinists believe? Or is a God who is love more likely to graciously offer salvation to all people while requiring them to repent of their sins and put their faith and trust in Him and His Son in order to be saved? The latter clearly is more in line with a God who is love than the former.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The only thing you need to show is that a particular choice was necessitated (not only influenced) by something else before the choice
The Law of Causation says that all effects are caused. There is nothing that we can do that is not caused, nor can we ourselves be uncaused. So even if you say we are entirely spontaneous in our decisions, THAT is also caused since we are caused. Thus, a logical self-contradiction. Thus, we are not able to do anything uncaused.

If our choice is influenced, that influence necessarily causes, one way or another, rejection, consideration, acceptance, dismay, etc etc etc
Sorry! Would you be kind to direct me back to the post where you explain how God can decree every sinful act without being the author of sin?
God created with full knowledge of the consequences, yes? When God spoke his creation into existence, that —all of it— is his decree. We accept that he did not "author" sin, (depending on what you mean by the word, 'author'). If he caused, but did not author, then he caused that there be sin, and he caused every incidence of it to be. But the principles (delight and desire and habit and on and on) and the individuals that sin on their own, are also caused to be. All the circumstances by which we sin, are caused to be. But, as Joseph said to his brothers, "You indeed intended it for evil, but God intended it for good." God intended every evil sin for a good end; if there were no sin, there would be no redemption. But the individual that sins is the cause of his own decisions, for good or for evil, but that individual is not the only cause of his decisions.

James says, "...each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;" There is where sin begins.
I'm not saying Sproul didn't make a good argument. I think the argument was fine, but it leads to those unbiblical implications. Sure Calvinists don't agree, but I've never heard a reasonable explanation for how God can control everything, while we are still held responsible. Saying God uses "means" doesn't answer that, because the "means" themselves are determined by God.
Yes, the means are determined. I'm just showing a degree of separation. But let me get a little severe here, or clinical. By definition God does not sin—not just because he is not evil-natured, but because by definition, sin is against God, and it is illogical to suppose that he would be against himself. What God does, then, is never against himself, and never against his purposes. All he made serves his purposes. There he is, in his own economy —his own level, so to speak— that we can't even access, nevermind dwell in. I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that he authors sin; instead, I am forced to admit that he causes that there be sin. I can see no way around it. Even if I agreed about libertarian free will, which (to my knowledge) all proponents of it —Christians, that is— say it is God's gift, (or words to that effect), then I would have to say that God caused that free will, and whatever comes of that free will (in this case, sin) is therefore caused to be.

The severe part is that God will do everything it takes to complete the product he intended from the beginning. And what is needed was more severe than any of us realize; and he has every right to do so. We are not completed yet.

You may remember me talking about atheists sometimes asking, "If God is omnipotent, why didn't he just speak Heaven and the Bride, etc into instantaneous existence—why drag us through this mess?" And I respond, "Maybe he did speak it instantaneously into existence, and this is how it came to be. This life is not for this life."
I think there's an important distinction you are overlooking. God decreeing some sinful acts for a specific purpose is not the same as God causing existence of sin.
It at least sounds like you agree, then, that he decreed some specific sinful acts. Good. If he can do that, and yet not be the author of sin, then he can decree any sinful act without being the author of sin.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
It is not that we can't resist the Spirit, but that the Spirit does as it will with us, (John 3), in indwelling us, changing us from death to life. It is not a reference to subsequent moral choices.
How is that different from not being able to resist the Spirit: He doing as He wills with us and all?.
I guess you're missing what I'm saying. We can be at enmity with God in all our ways, so we resist him. When he re-births us, he is doing something we cannot resist.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes, this idea that fallen man is corrupt at/to the core isn't sound understanding. It would mean that man is as bad/evil as he could possibly be, no redeeming qualties or spark of God's image left in him at all, nothing for God to appeal to which is not the case and not consistent with Scripture taken as a whole. The problem with fallen man is that he has no way, no means to reach up and find God, and bring Him down to himself. That requires grace, God's action.

Man is lost, far from his true home; he can never cause or experience reconciliation with God on his own to put it another way, even if he senses something's wrong, something's missing in this world; God must initiate that.
Not exactly. God restrains the evil, with what is sometimes called common grace, and by specific inhibiting of man's notions, too, not to mention that man is not able to do all he wants. So, no, man is not as bad/evil as he could possibly be. And, there are 'redeeming' qualities but they are only by the presence (Immanence) of God, working on each person. ("The king’s heart is a waterway in the hand of the LORD; He directs it where He pleases." Proverbs 21:1) The only good in any of us is God's doing.
 
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fhansen

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Mark Quayle said:
It is not that we can't resist the Spirit, but that the Spirit does as it will with us, (John 3), in indwelling us, changing us from death to life. It is not a reference to subsequent moral choices.

I guess you're missing what I'm saying. We can be at enmity with God in all our ways, so we resist him. When he re-births us, he is doing something we cannot resist.
I doubt you're missing what I'm saying which is, yes, we can resist Him; we can remain at enmity-or return to enmity- with Him. Again, what is rebirth in your view, how would you define or describe it, how does it change us? What does it mean to move from life to death? Is it only that God considers us to be alive now, or is their some substantive change?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Ok. Well, He obviously doesn't need to consult us for anything; He could've just destined everyone for heaven to begin with, for that matter. Or hell. Or not created us at at all. It's really about what He wants to do, and why He wants to do it that way. My position and that of others here is that grace is resistible, for His highest purposes. Did Adam have a right to his own being? Did God want Adam to disobey when He commanded Adam not to disobey? Did the Spirit of God cause Adam to disobey God?
Why do you assume he wants everyone that ever will have lived to go to Heaven?

But if everyone is at enmity with God, how will they get there without him changing them? I mean, how will they even do anything real?


I don't understand why you ask the 3 questions you do above:

No, Adam has no right to his own being. He has responsibility to obey.

No God did not want Adam to disobey. (Define "want" when it is applied to God. We might wish two things, but want the one more than we want the other.) One of my opponents on this forum tries this same sort of argument to demonstrate that, in effect, I believe in an irrational God. God 'wanted' from the beginning to Redeem a People for Himself, so he made Lucifer, who rebelled, just as God intended to happen, and decreed Adam's fall, and Christ's sacrifice, all necessary components to Redemption. The Reformed refer to the "two wills" (at least two) of God, the Revealed Will (eg Command) and Hidden Will (eg God's Decree). The decree is everything that comes to pass, since nothing can happen apart from God ordaining it to happen. Thus, it can be said that God wants Adam to sin, and it can be said that God doesn't want Adam to sin, because the law of non-contradiction says that two things are only necessarily mutually exclusive if they are opposite in the same way at the same time. Those two "wants" God has are not mutually exclusive, since one is about what he intended Adam to do, and the other is about what he told Adam not to do. God intended that there be sin, though he hates sin and by definition does not himself sin. There is no plan B on account of something having gone wrong.

No, the Spirit of God did not cause Adam to disobey God. Not sure why you went there. God decreed that it would happen, and thus caused it to come about. God did not tempt Adam. The serpent, and his wife did.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Why do you assume he wants everyone that ever will have lived to go to Heaven?
Why would you assume otherwise? What else should we expect from a God who is love (1 John 4:8). The word "love" describes who God is more than any other word, but you think a God who is love would not want some to be in heaven? Why?

But if everyone is at enmity with God, how will they get there without him changing them? I mean, how will they even do anything real?
Faith does not come by God changing people's minds and hearts with them having no choice in the matter. It comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God/Christ (Romans 10:17). God doesn't just leave them in that state of being at enmity with Him. He reaches out to them all day long in an effort to change their minds about Him (Romans 10:21). The gospel is "the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16). Faith comes from the powerful influence of the preaching of the gospel, not from God changing people's minds and hearts. If it was just a matter of God changing people's minds and hearts in order to believe, that would be a simple, quick process. Yet, we read of God reaching out all day long to people and of Paul spending multiple days trying to persuade people to believe (Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-4). The way scripture portrays how salvation works simply does not line up with what you believe. Salvation is offered to people with people having to decide how to respond to the offer rather than it just being given to some and withheld from the rest.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I doubt you're missing what I'm saying which is, yes, we can resist Him; we can remain at enmity-or return to enmity- with Him. Again, what is rebirth in your view, how would you define or describe it, how does it change us? What does it mean to move from life to death? Is it only that God considers us to be alive now, or is their some substantive change?
I don't think I said life to death. I said from death to life (or at least that's what I meant to say). We cannot change God's mind. It is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.

Rebirth, "born from above" (John 3 discourse with Nicodemus), born again, regeneration, is what happens when the Spirit of God takes up residence within a person, utterly changing the person's will. God does not depend on the integrity of anyone to keep what he has begun, nor does he abandon the project. There is indeed a substantive change.

Eph 2 describes that death-to-life transformation, and Romans 8 shows our inability to change ourselves, until God has changed us.
 
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zoidar

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I don't think I said life to death. I said from death to life (or at least that's what I meant to say). We cannot change God's mind. It is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.

Rebirth, "born from above" (John 3 discourse with Nicodemus), born again, regeneration, is what happens when the Spirit of God takes up residence within a person, utterly changing the person's will. God does not depend on the integrity of anyone to keep what he has begun, nor does he abandon the project. There is indeed a substantive change.

Eph 2 describes that death-to-life transformation, and Romans 8 shows our inability to change ourselves, until God has changed us.
It's a good question what changes at rebirth. I don't think I would say rebirth changes the will. I would say conviction changes the will. Rebirth gives the heart new desires, not a new will.
 
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throughfierytrial

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I don't think I said life to death. I said from death to life (or at least that's what I meant to say). We cannot change God's mind. It is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.

Rebirth, "born from above" (John 3 discourse with Nicodemus), born again, regeneration, is what happens when the Spirit of God takes up residence within a person, utterly changing the person's will. God does not depend on the integrity of anyone to keep what he has begun, nor does he abandon the project. There is indeed a substantive change.

Eph 2 describes that death-to-life transformation, and Romans 8 shows our inability to change ourselves, until God has changed us.
I agree as Philippians in fact says, it is God in us to will and to act according to His purpose.

That being said there is a conscious effort to undertake to repent …do an about-face…to conform to God’s will. The incomprehensible issue is where in this new relationship…God in us/indwelling us… do I a person begin and where do I end.

There are many warnings given to the NT Christian. Don’t be lukewarm, not to put out the Spirit’s fire, struggle against the flesh, exercise self-control …. On and on.

You may be describing a once saved always saved relationship with God.??? I do not subscribe to that belief. But, God saves us by grace and God willing we do not become Godless like Esau who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup. (a somber reminder)
 
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