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New Creation Millennialism

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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.

For instance, premillennials have to contend that two separate resurrections is not explicit in Scripture and that what is the purpose of the Millennium if the wicked dead are also resurrected. If the Millenium is the fully realized Kingdom of God, then what place in it is there for the unrighteousness?

However, amillennialism isn't without it's own issues, particularly with the binding of Satan. If he's shut up in a pit, then how can he also be prowling the earth like a roaring lion? He can supposedly no longer deceive the world, yet much of the world is deceived.

This is where NCM comes in. It's like amillennialism in that it interprets much of Revelation symbolically (preferring the recapitulation model of amillenialism) rather than a strictly chronological sequence of events like premillennialism. Also, like amillennialism, NCM only recognizes two ages: the current Church Age and the Age to Come/New Creation.

However, unlike amillennialism (but like premillennialism) NCM sees Revelation 20 as still in the future and expects the Millennium to be a literal physical kingdom established on the earth.
Instead of a separate era that occurs before the New Creation, NCM sees the Millennium as part of the New Creation. In other words, it's better to think of the Millennium as a phase of sub-era of the New Creation rather than its own separate age.

The Millennium is simply the era of the New Creation when Satan and the unrighteous dead (the second death) are imprisoned in Sheol (NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time, Satan cannot deceive the people of God, who at this time are residing in and reigning over the New Creation.

When the Millennium is over, Satan and the wicked dead (the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation) will be released and try to destroy the kingdom of God, but ultimately fail

The two main proponents of this view are Tom Schreiner and J Webb Mealy. Schreiner seems to hold to the traditional Protestant view of eternal conscious torment, so after their attack, the wicked will suffer in hell for eternity.

Mealy, on the other hand, seems to be an annihilationist. He understands the "lake of fire" as connected to the fire from heaven and that in Greek, the word use for lake can mean a temporary pool of water (like a puddle left behind by rain or pool created by a tide.) So, he sees the lake of fire as what is left behind from the fire from heaven rather than a separate physical location.

What are your thoughts on this view?
 

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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.

For instance, premillennials have to contend that two separate resurrections is not explicit in Scripture and that what is the purpose of the Millennium if the wicked dead are also resurrected. If the Millenium is the fully realized Kingdom of God, then what place in it is there for the unrighteousness?

However, amillennialism isn't without it's own issues, particularly with the binding of Satan. If he's shut up in a pit, then how can he also be prowling the earth like a roaring lion? He can supposedly no longer deceive the world, yet much of the world is deceived.

This is where NCM comes in. It's like amillennialism in that it interprets much of Revelation symbolically (preferring the recapitulation model of amillenialism) rather than a strictly chronological sequence of events like premillennialism. Also, like amillennialism, NCM only recognizes two ages: the current Church Age and the Age to Come/New Creation.

However, unlike amillennialism (but like premillennialism) NCM sees Revelation 20 as still in the future and expects the Millennium to be a literal physical kingdom established on the earth.
Instead of a separate era that occurs before the New Creation, NCM sees the Millennium as part of the New Creation. In other words, it's better to think of the Millennium as a phase of sub-era of the New Creation rather than its own separate age.

The Millennium is simply the era of the New Creation when Satan and the unrighteous dead (the second death) are imprisoned in Sheol (NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time, Satan cannot deceive the people of God, who at this time are residing in and reigning over the New Creation.

When the Millennium is over, Satan and the wicked dead (the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation) will be released and try to destroy the kingdom of God, but ultimately fail

The two main proponents of this view are Tom Schreiner and J Webb Mealy. Schreiner seems to hold to the traditional Protestant view of eternal conscious torment, so after their attack, the wicked will suffer in hell for eternity.

Mealy, on the other hand, seems to be an annihilationist. He understands the "lake of fire" as connected to the fire from heaven and that in Greek, the word use for lake can mean a temporary pool of water (like a puddle left behind by rain or pool created by a tide.) So, he sees the lake of fire as what is left behind from the fire from heaven rather than a separate physical location.

What are your thoughts on this view?
My thoughts...you cant have it both ways.
A - Millennium is simply no literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ of Nazareth but a never ending time period. Most importantly, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Kingdom as He said:

" The Kingdom of God is in your midst ".

Who was in their midst? Jesus Christ of Nazareth. What did He say He would do if one loved Him? Make His Home in them.
And when He said He would send another Helper, He sent Himself, His Holy Spirit. So His Kingdom is in Him not a place. As Paul said, " absent from the body, present with the Lord".

Blessings
 
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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.
(NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time,

What are your thoughts on this view?
I'm not aware of NCM? Anyway, yes there are weaknesses to both Premil and Amil, in my opinion. The Kingdom of God is a subject all to itself, however. I see the Kingdom as both heavenly and earthly--heavenly because the Kingdom is wherever God is, in heaven, and earthly because God endows some of His authority to earthly kingdoms such as OT Israel or even NT Christian kingdoms.

When Jesus was on earth in his earthly ministry he indicated the Kingdom was both "near" and "in the midst" of his disciples or people. This means that Jesus represented the Lord's rule both in heaven and on earth while he was on the earth. But his presence is reprsented by the Holy Spirit today even after he has gone back to heaven. So, the Kingdom is not fully here in a consummate sense, but only "near" in its sense of history currently proceeding to that end.

There is some truth to what some term "Realized Eschatology," though it is not truly eschatological at all. What this means is that the Kingdom, as it is currently in our midst through the Holy Spirit has some characteristics of its ultimate end in the eschaton. As we're told, we have the down payment of the spiritual life in anticipation of the entire endowment at the resurrection. We currently have power to live a Christian life now, even before we obtain our immortal inheritance.

I believe we are given power over Satan now, through the Cross. But Jesus' disciples operated in power over Satan, through Jesus' name, even before the Cross. So even though we may be able to bind demons in the name of Jesus Satan isn't actually bound until Jesus comes again. My opinion.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.
There are variatians of views within both premillennialism and amillennialism, so it's not very helpful to make general statements about each of them. Your view is a premillennialist view, but just different from other premillennialist views.

For instance, premillennials have to contend that two separate resurrections is not explicit in Scripture and that what is the purpose of the Millennium if the wicked dead are also resurrected. If the Millenium is the fully realized Kingdom of God, then what place in it is there for the unrighteousness?
Doesn't your view have two separate resurrections? When do you believe the unsaved will be resurrected?

However, amillennialism isn't without it's own issues, particularly with the binding of Satan. If he's shut up in a pit, then how can he also be prowling the earth like a roaring lion? He can supposedly no longer deceive the world, yet much of the world is deceived.
Like other premillennialists, you assume the binding of Satan is a literal binding of a spirit being (somehow) that renders him to be completely incapacitated. That is not how amillennialists understand his binding, so why don't you address how amillennialists understand his binding instead of forcing a premil-like understanding of Satan's binding onto amillennialism? As amillennialists understand Satan's binding, there is no problem. So, are you interested in learning the amill understanding of Satan's binding to take into consideration or not?

This is where NCM comes in. It's like amillennialism in that it interprets much of Revelation symbolically (preferring the recapitulation model of amillenialism) rather than a strictly chronological sequence of events like premillennialism. Also, like amillennialism, NCM only recognizes two ages: the current Church Age and the Age to Come/New Creation.

However, unlike amillennialism (but like premillennialism) NCM sees Revelation 20 as still in the future and expects the Millennium to be a literal physical kingdom established on the earth.
Instead of a separate era that occurs before the New Creation, NCM sees the Millennium as part of the New Creation. In other words, it's better to think of the Millennium as a phase of sub-era of the New Creation rather than its own separate age.

The Millennium is simply the era of the New Creation when Satan and the unrighteous dead (the second death) are imprisoned in Sheol (NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time, Satan cannot deceive the people of God, who at this time are residing in and reigning over the New Creation.
What would be the point and purpose of the thousand years in this case? It seems that you must think that no sin or death occurs during that time? Which would mean it would basically be like things will be during eternity in the new heavens and new earth? Why would God make it that way for a thousand years, only to allow Satan and the unrighteous, resurrected dead to ruin that for a little season only to then restore things again to how they already were during the thousand years? I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense of your view.

When the Millennium is over, Satan and the wicked dead (the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation) will be released and try to destroy the kingdom of God, but ultimately fail
Why?

The two main proponents of this view are Tom Schreiner and J Webb Mealy. Schreiner seems to hold to the traditional Protestant view of eternal conscious torment, so after their attack, the wicked will suffer in hell for eternity.

Mealy, on the other hand, seems to be an annihilationist. He understands the "lake of fire" as connected to the fire from heaven and that in Greek, the word use for lake can mean a temporary pool of water (like a puddle left behind by rain or pool created by a tide.) So, he sees the lake of fire as what is left behind from the fire from heaven rather than a separate physical location.

What are your thoughts on this view?
I disagree with it and simply do not think it makes any sense.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I'm not aware of NCM? Anyway, yes there are weaknesses to both Premil and Amil, in my opinion.
To be clear, you just mean that there are weaknesses in some variations of Premil and some variations of Amil, right? At a basic level, one or the other has to be true. NCM is just another variation of premillennialism because it has Jesus returning before the thousand years. Jesus will either return before or after the thousand years. There's no other viable option than Premil or Amil. Well, I guess Postmil is another option, but it's similar to Amil except it doesn't see things as getting worse before Jesus returns after the thousand years, but instead sees things as getting better before He returns after the thousand years.
 
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RandyPNW

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To be clear, you just mean that there are weaknesses in some variations of Premil and some variations of Amil, right? At a basic level, one or the other has to be true. NCM is just another variation of premillennialism because it has Jesus returning before the thousand years. Jesus will either return before or after the thousand years. There's no other viable option than Premil or Amil. Well, I guess Postmil is another option, but it's similar to Amil except it doesn't see things as getting worse before Jesus returns after the thousand years, but instead sees things as getting better before He returns after the thousand years.
Yes, either the thousand years are literal or they are a symbolic number representing the current Christian Age. Either position has a lot of other beliefs attached to back up what that position believes. I think the weakness of each position exists within these other related beliefs.

But a lot of this is my own personal belief and not something you would agree with. For example, I think it is a weakness for amillennialists to claim that no earthly Kingdom of Messiah is anticipated in OT Prophecy, the Abrahamic Covenant, or NT belief. I think, on the other hand, it is a weakness for premillennialists to claim a thousand years is future when there is no other mention of that explicit number of years anywhere else in the Scriptures.

It is a strong point when amillennialists claim that Jesus comes back to render final judgment upon all, righteous and wicked, leaving little room for survivors. It is a strong point when millennialists claim that there is a 2nd resurrection, following the Millennium. These beliefs tend to cancel each other out. Believe what your conviction is.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.

For instance, premillennials have to contend that two separate resurrections is not explicit in Scripture and that what is the purpose of the Millennium if the wicked dead are also resurrected. If the Millenium is the fully realized Kingdom of God, then what place in it is there for the unrighteousness?

However, amillennialism isn't without it's own issues, particularly with the binding of Satan. If he's shut up in a pit, then how can he also be prowling the earth like a roaring lion? He can supposedly no longer deceive the world, yet much of the world is deceived.

This is where NCM comes in. It's like amillennialism in that it interprets much of Revelation symbolically (preferring the recapitulation model of amillenialism) rather than a strictly chronological sequence of events like premillennialism. Also, like amillennialism, NCM only recognizes two ages: the current Church Age and the Age to Come/New Creation.

However, unlike amillennialism (but like premillennialism) NCM sees Revelation 20 as still in the future and expects the Millennium to be a literal physical kingdom established on the earth.
Instead of a separate era that occurs before the New Creation, NCM sees the Millennium as part of the New Creation. In other words, it's better to think of the Millennium as a phase of sub-era of the New Creation rather than its own separate age.

The Millennium is simply the era of the New Creation when Satan and the unrighteous dead (the second death) are imprisoned in Sheol (NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time, Satan cannot deceive the people of God, who at this time are residing in and reigning over the New Creation.

When the Millennium is over, Satan and the wicked dead (the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation) will be released and try to destroy the kingdom of God, but ultimately fail

The two main proponents of this view are Tom Schreiner and J Webb Mealy. Schreiner seems to hold to the traditional Protestant view of eternal conscious torment, so after their attack, the wicked will suffer in hell for eternity.

Mealy, on the other hand, seems to be an annihilationist. He understands the "lake of fire" as connected to the fire from heaven and that in Greek, the word use for lake can mean a temporary pool of water (like a puddle left behind by rain or pool created by a tide.) So, he sees the lake of fire as what is left behind from the fire from heaven rather than a separate physical location.

What are your thoughts on this view?

For me, engaging the eschatology of the book of Revelation isn't an exercise in trying to decide which of a dozen competing interpretive views are the correct one. And since I don't think any of us can have a definitive understanding of what the Lord Himself has not fully fleshed out in prophecy beyond a sort of general outline in metaphorical terms, I leave my understanding of the Millennium open.

This also means I think everyone is partly free to veer toward whichever of the various dozen readings of Revelation one think is preferable within certain epistemic limits. If you like this NCM position, I'm not going to castigate you over. Some aspects of your description of it I could probably even say reflect some measure of how I approach Revelation.

Other than that, I don't have too many other thoughts on NCM to talk about. I do appreciate you having mentioned it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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For me, engaging the eschatology of the book of Revelation isn't an exercise in trying to decide which of a dozen competing interpretive views are the correct one. And since I don't think any of us can have a definitive understanding of what the Lord Himself has not fully fleshed out in prophecy beyond a sort of general outline in metaphorical terms, I leave my understanding of the Millennium open.

This also means I think everyone is partly free to veer toward whichever of the various dozen readings of Revelation one think is preferable within certain epistemic limits. If you like this NCM position, I'm not going to castigate you over. Some aspects of your description of it I could probably even say reflect some measure of how I approach Revelation.

Other than that, I don't have too many other thoughts on NCM to talk about. I do appreciate you having mentioned it.
I think if you take the approach that you try to come to the truth of his matter just from the book of Revelation alone, then you're going to tend to leave your understanding of the Millennium open or you might tend to be a Premillennialist if you read the book chronologically. But, doctrine should not be founded upon difficult to interpret scripture like most of the book of Revelation tends to be. There are other more clear, straightforward scriptures that we can use to help understand what is written in Revelation and that can help us come to a solid understanding of Revelation 20.
 
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I think if you take the approach that you try to come to the truth of his matter just from the book of Revelation alone, then you're going to tend to leave your understanding of the Millennium open or you might tend to be a Premillennialist if you read the book chronologically. But, doctrine should not be founded upon difficult to interpret scripture like most of the book of Revelation tends to be. There are other more clear, straightforward scriptures that we can use to help understand what is written in Revelation and that can help us come to a solid understanding of Revelation 20.

It's not clear or straightforward and I've studied enough to know better than to think it is. But I do agree with you that understanding Revelation requires a 'whole Bible' approach where Revelation is to be informed by content from the Old Testament, particularly the Prophets.
 
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So, I discovered another end times view that I think is interesting and want to share to get other's thoughts about it. I personally agree with it and it's probably what I lean towards (albeit tentatively.)

New Creation Millennialism (or NCM) is a viewpoint that sees both premillennialism and amillennialism as having serious weaknesses.

For instance, premillennials have to contend that two separate resurrections is not explicit in Scripture and that what is the purpose of the Millennium if the wicked dead are also resurrected. If the Millenium is the fully realized Kingdom of God, then what place in it is there for the unrighteousness?

However, amillennialism isn't without it's own issues, particularly with the binding of Satan. If he's shut up in a pit, then how can he also be prowling the earth like a roaring lion? He can supposedly no longer deceive the world, yet much of the world is deceived.

This is where NCM comes in. It's like amillennialism in that it interprets much of Revelation symbolically (preferring the recapitulation model of amillenialism) rather than a strictly chronological sequence of events like premillennialism. Also, like amillennialism, NCM only recognizes two ages: the current Church Age and the Age to Come/New Creation.

However, unlike amillennialism (but like premillennialism) NCM sees Revelation 20 as still in the future and expects the Millennium to be a literal physical kingdom established on the earth.
Instead of a separate era that occurs before the New Creation, NCM sees the Millennium as part of the New Creation. In other words, it's better to think of the Millennium as a phase of sub-era of the New Creation rather than its own separate age.

The Millennium is simply the era of the New Creation when Satan and the unrighteous dead (the second death) are imprisoned in Sheol (NCM is agnostic as to whether the Millennium will be a literal 1000 years or just figurative of an unspecified length of time.) During this time, Satan cannot deceive the people of God, who at this time are residing in and reigning over the New Creation.

When the Millennium is over, Satan and the wicked dead (the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation) will be released and try to destroy the kingdom of God, but ultimately fail

The two main proponents of this view are Tom Schreiner and J Webb Mealy. Schreiner seems to hold to the traditional Protestant view of eternal conscious torment, so after their attack, the wicked will suffer in hell for eternity.

Mealy, on the other hand, seems to be an annihilationist. He understands the "lake of fire" as connected to the fire from heaven and that in Greek, the word use for lake can mean a temporary pool of water (like a puddle left behind by rain or pool created by a tide.) So, he sees the lake of fire as what is left behind from the fire from heaven rather than a separate physical location.

What are your thoughts on this view?
And what will moves me are verses !!

dan p
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It's not clear or straightforward and I've studied enough to know better than to think it is.
What is not clear or straightforward exactly? If you mean the book of Revelation, then I agree and I don't know how anyone could disagree. But, I do believe there are clear and straightforward passages that touch on topics that are covered in Revelation, such as what we see in Revelation 20, that can help us understand what Revelation 20 is about. I'm talking about things like Christ's reign, Satan's binding, Christ's followers being priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment.

But I do agree with you that understanding Revelation requires a 'whole Bible' approach where Revelation is to be informed by content from the Old Testament, particularly the Prophets.
I think it's even more important to have the less obscure New Testament text help inform our understanding of the New Testament book of Revelation.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What is not clear or straightforward exactly? If you mean the book of Revelation, then I agree and I don't know how anyone could disagree. But, I do believe there are clear and straightforward passages that touch on topics that are covered in Revelation, such as what we see in Revelation 20, that can help us understand what Revelation 20 is about. I'm talking about things like Christ's reign, Satan's binding, Christ's followers being priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment.
I'm referring to all of those things as well, SJ. And if you feel you have some sense of interpretive assurance in your own view of the book of Revelation, along with all of the rest of Eschatology and Prophecy we find in the Bible, then I'm not going to argue with you about it.
I think it's even more important to have the less obscure New Testament text help inform our understanding of the New Testament book of Revelation.

What do you have in mind specifically that you think helps in regard to understanding Revelation?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I'm referring to all of those things as well, SJ. And if you feel you have some sense of interpretive assurance in your own view of the book of Revelation, along with all of the rest of Eschatology and Prophecy we find in the Bible, then I'm not going to argue with you about it.
I'm not trying to argue with you about our views, I'm just telling you my understanding of how we should approach the book of Revelation. That's all.

What do you have in mind specifically that you think helps in regard to understanding Revelation?
In relation to Revelation 20 specifically, which is basically what this thread is about (people's understanding of the thousand years or Millennium), any scriptures that talk about the reign of Jesus Christ, Satan being bound or restrained, a time of increased wickedness and rebellion, believers being priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment are helpful in determining what Revelation 20 is all about. So, for example, passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-22, Revelation 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:5-9, and Colossians 1:12-13 help us determine when Christ's reign began and when believers began being His priests in His kingdom.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm not trying to argue with you about our views, I'm just telling you my understanding of how we should approach the book of Revelation. That's all.


In relation to Revelation 20 specifically, which is basically what this thread is about (people's understanding of the thousand years or Millennium), any scriptures that talk about the reign of Jesus Christ, Satan being bound or restrained, a time of increased wickedness and rebellion, believers being priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment are helpful in determining what Revelation 20 is all about. So, for example, passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-22, Revelation 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:5-9, and Colossians 1:12-13 help us determine when Christ's reign began and when believers began being His priests in His kingdom.

Ok. I disagree that what you think are inferences from the verses you've listed clarify the meaning of the Millennium. But.....you're Amillennial and that's your thing so I understand where you're coming from. Thank you for sharing your view.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Ok. I disagree that what you think are inferences from the verses you've listed clarify the meaning of the Millennium.
Yeah, I figured as such. But, I'm not going to try to pressure you to get into a debate with me about it. I can tell that you're not interested in that and that's fine.

But.....you're Amillennial and that's your thing so I understand where you're coming from. Thank you for sharing your view.
It's very difficult sometimes on this forum just to get someone to understand my view and where I'm coming from, whether they agree with me or not. So, I appreciate that you at least understand why I believe what I do and you can respectfully disagree.
 
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