A Baptist with a very wise observation.

Maine Progressive said:

Forgiven. Gladly.
1) I responded to the frequent claim that ‘a region with a majority Christian influence would do better than a secular region…specifically America. Because the Southeast region of the U.S. with a majority Christian population does worse than the rest of the more secular regions, that claim is false. These are just facts. Southeast Christians are no worse than any of us. No different. It’s just that the claim is false.
2) I am delighted that you are involved in Kingdom work, helping the downtrodden, helping those in trouble, seeking justice. Excellent.
3) We are indeed a rather invisible hand. Many Christians in true humility seek to be anonymous so as not to brag or boast and, still, the work gets done. I do not need to ‘detect’ the effort. But I do expect to see the results. As the Bible says, we know them by their fruits.
4) You lay out a sequence..the most important being seeking souls, then beneficially enlarging the body, and then become busy with such Kingdom work…sort of a byproduct of the whole thing. I see it the opposite way. All the steps are correct. But based on what I see in Scripture, the “Kingdom work” is most important. The rest is just facilitation. So if you perceive me as placing ‘little value’, I disagree. I just believe, as the Bible shows, that the greatest value is in the Kingdom work.

Click to expand...

Well, I truly appreciate your heartfelt reply.

I truly believed you gave little credence to the individual Christian efforts and that of the church proper. There are legitimate charges to be brought to modern day churches, however. Some tend to want to bring worldly activities into the church to attract newcomers and thereby witness to them and bring a greater comfort level to these new attendees...though most such secular activities do not bring in visitors to the church nor new members. The net effect is watered down Christianity. And I have already listed what I perceive as the breakdown of the family unit further eroding the church. In the end it is in God's hands as to who will be saved for it is a gift of God. Therefore, we must work within our given sphere and path...and it is good and right to broaden that path as much as possible. I am sorry for any offense this may have brought you, but I fear we may still not understand one another completely and I currently have so little time to write or organize my thoughts.

Godspeed to you as you travel that narrow road on your journey home.

Maine Progressive said:

“The liberty I contend for, is more than toleration,” Leland would later write.

Click to expand...

Jesus on the cross included everyone. Everyone has needed to turn from our sins. And Jesus does not tolerate people staying in their own ways. But all are called to submit to how our God and Father personally rules each of us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Or else, we are not free from "self" and the weakness of self which has us fearing and worrying and unforgiving and self-righteously looking down on others.

Maine Progressive said:

“The very idea of toleration, is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest, to grant indulgence;

Click to expand...

But Jesus is the Lord of all, above all the rest. And He calls to "all" to join Him in His rest >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

Jesus does not only give "indulgence" or "tolerance", but His own rest.

Maine Progressive said:

whereas, all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians.”

Click to expand...

Here he lists two nationalities . . . Jews and Turks. And he mentions two of what are not nationalities > Pagans and Christians.

Does he consider it the same to be a Christian as to be a Pagan?? A Pagan is a person who does not consider Jesus to be "the way, the truth, and the life" (in John 14:6). Jesus says, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." (in John 14:6)

And Jesus died on the cross for all people. So, if someone says a wrong person does not need Jesus on the cross, someone can be helping that wrong person to miss out on becoming forgiven and set free from the person's sin problems. And that means someone is not forgiving the wrong person. It is not wise to keep wrong people from being forgiven. To my knowledge there are Pagans and Jews who do not uphold our need to trust in Jesus for forgiveness.

And now we have people who are betraying certain wrong people, by saying they are ok to keep on living in their wrong things. Plus, God is trusting us to tell children the difference between right and wrong. But it does appear to me that people can pick and choose what they say is wrong. There are things wrong which not all people will tell their children >

heterosexual immorality

not being "thankful" (Romans 1:21, Colossians 3:15) and "leaving the natural use of the woman" > Romans 1:18-32

arguing and complaining > Philippians 2:14, Hebrews 13:5

food abuse > 1 Corinthians 6:12, 1 Corinthians 9:25

beauty discrimination > John 7:24, 1 Peter 3:4

favoritistic loving > Matthew 5:46

lording myself over others, or trying to > 1 Peter 5:3

unforgiveness > including not seeking forgiveness for people involved in wrong things > Mark 11:25

Maine Progressive said:

John Leland , Itinerant Baptist preacher during the American Revolution.

Click to expand...

Did he ever say we all are "called in one body" to be ruled by God in His own peace? Colossians 3:15.

Maine Progressive said:

“The liberty I contend for, is more than toleration,” Leland would later write. “The very idea of toleration, is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest, to grant indulgence; whereas, all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians.” John Leland , Itinerant Baptist preacher during the American Revolution.

Click to expand...

The thought is nice as far as it goes, but it only works if the same values are held by all and all want the same outcome. But history has shown us that is not true.

I remember the arguements on multuralism and relatiive morality. How everyone was for allowing everyone regardless of race or culture the freedom to self determination.

But when it got to the obviously strange and wrong according to our standards people began to swirm in their seats nodding "yeah thats ok they have a right". While inside thinking "no way thats just wrong".

I like in what Jesus taught the disciples.

Matthew 5:41-48
If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

stevevw said:

I remember the arguements on multuralism and relatiive morality. How everyone was for allowing everyone regardless of race or culture the freedom to self determination.

But when it got to the obviously strange and wrong according to our standards people began to swirm in their seats nodding "yeah thats ok they have a right". While inside thinking "no way thats just wrong".

I like in what Jesus taught the disciples.

Matthew 5:41-48
If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Click to expand...

Acquiescing to sin make you a partner in sin… be careful you do not yourself fall says Galatians. Loving a neighbor caught in sin requires the spiritual work of pointing out sin as sin and a call for repentance. This may take time depending on the sinner’s attitudes etc. and having of course to be patient when one-on-one.

Yes, your problem is the same as Jesus’, it is not the judging in-of-itself that is bad but the hypocrite who’s doing it. To which I agree & I’ll take it even further - many Christians are doing a terrible job at it because they are not Christians. They do not know the difference between right & wrong because they do not live it; their prayers cease; Jesus has been forgotten. In any regard, both extremes are to be avoided. Yes it is bad to be a hypocrite but it’s just as bad to never say anything in fear of being a hypocrite. The world struggles with the former - Christians struggle with the latter

CHRISTIANS have been bought by God and He is conforming us to do His will.

Maine Progressive said:

Actually I think history has most often taught us that the society locked to one set of common values is the one that falls behind. The one that ventures into appropriation of many cultures usually comes out on top simply by having many more options to deal with challenges. Just look at the historical record.

Click to expand...

I guess when I responded I was thinking that by “same outcome” I was thinking that it implied survival of all groups as compared to the situations of these days where one groups sees only survival of itself at the cost of all others.

Maine Progressive said:

Exactly. Thanks. You point to the two sides of stupid. Fear and loathing. The loathing side of this argument is the 'group' that insists all other groups must be eliminated. And the fear side is the 'group' who stupidly fears that other groups are out to get them. Sound policy can only grow in an environment free of fear and loathing. Unfortunately leaders, both political and religious, love to play on fear and loathing as it is such a powerful way to make people turn from kindness and common sense and commit themselves to foolish and cruel policies.

Click to expand...

Nobody suggested that people turn from kindness and commit cruel policies, but history HAS shown that some groups are out to get others and only those without common sense will ignore it. Look at what’s happening in England and Ireland right now.

Maine Progressive

You like to judge and accuse those who disagree with you. We seek our guidance from the God given Bible, not you.

Maine Progressive said:

This is funny. In England and Ireland the most violent religious conflict occurred under the pretense of Catholics vs Protestants. But was really between Nationalists and Unionists. But, you’re right, they were “out to get you” sorts of people. I have a hunch you are referring to something else. Like the response of xenophobes to the current state of Islamic immigrants. Similarly we love to think the terrorist attacks in the U.K are all religious. That’s baloney. Those are terrorists whose fury is entirely based in political extremism and vengeance for perceived injustices. I make no excuse for them. But they are no more Muslim than the KKK is Christian. And you can no more honestly believe Muslims are out to get you because of what terrorists have done than you can believe Christians are out to get you because of what the KKK has done.

Click to expand...

And yet those people who have escaped Muslim terrorist regimes will disagree with you. Heck, even the son of the person who started Hamas disagrees with you. There is a saying “when people tell you who they are, you should believe them”, but you go on with your eyes closed.