Whom do you serve?

stevevw · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
Whom do you serve?

The answer to that question cannot be found in what people say. Words are cheap, and emotions are fickle. There are serial killers that are baptised BELIEVERS in Jesus. The only way to know whom someone serves is to watch their behavior. If they serve God, they will be kind, compassionate, and just.

As a Jew, this is a no brainer for me. But if I give you the Jewish reasoning, it's going to go in one ear and out the other for most of you. So allow me to present the case made by your fellow Christians. Just a reminder, NO, I am not a Messianic Jew. I'm just your friendly neighborhood Spider-Jew.

There is only one place in your gospels where someone directly asks, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus tells him THE COMMANDMENTS. (Luke 18:18) Not faith. Not belief. Not a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not baptism. BEHAVIOR.

Actually if you look at the times when Christ does refer to the commandments like murder and adultery. He is speaking of the heart and not the behaviour. Before the actions. Whatever is in the heart is what is sinflu and leads to sinful behaviour.

This was directed at the pharisees who were good at presenting themselves as having pius behaviour which having a corrupt heart. Actually mocking the old women who acted in giving her last coin which came from a humble and good heart.

Meowzltov said:
In the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46) as you know, the sheep go to heaven and the goats go to hell. What was the difference? It wasn't their faith. It wasn't their beliefs. It wasn't having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It wasn't baptism. The ONLY difference between the sheep and the goats, as Keith Green pointed out, is what they DID... and DIDN'T... DO.

I agree faith is putting belief into action. Its one thing to say you believe. But another to act on it. To put yourself on the line.

Meowzltov said:
Of all the books in your NT, James is the most Jewish. Even as a Jew, I have enormous respect for when he says,
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

What about those who say they don't believe but also feed and make warm those in need ? Where do they fit ?

Meowzltov said:
Are any of you familiar with CS Lewis and his Narnia Chronicles? The last book in the series is called The Last Battle. In this story, the Calormen nation worships a demon named Tash. A particularly brave and loyal Calorman soldier finds himself in heaven. His mind is cleared and he realizes that Tash is a demon and the lion Aslan is God. This makes him confused to find himself in heaven. He asks Aslan how this can be since he served Tash all his life. But Aslan DISAGREES and states that nothing good can be done for Tash, just as nothing evil can be done for Aslan. All the good he had done in his life, he may have believed it was for Tash, but it served Aslan.

I can think of no better summary of my point than that.

Are you saying anyone who does good really has faith in Christ ? They just don't say it.

Meowzltov said:
I'm going to end with a word about a word, a Hebrew work: EMUNAH. EMUNAH means BOTH faith and faithfulness. It makes it impossible to accurately translate into English because our Christian culture pulls the two apart. In the Hebrew mind, they are the same thing. You don't go around asking a fellow Israelite if they believe in God. You look to see if they obey the commandments. THAT tells you everything you need to know about their beliefs without anyone speaking even one word.

So can we identify the good from faith in God and Christ will align with Gods laws and Christs teachings. That is how we can tell it from other behaviour that may appear good.

Or the outward appearence of good like the pharisees presents from the true good from the heart that the old women displayed in giving her last coin. Compared to giving as a token gesture to make onself look virtuous in the eyes of others.

.

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

stevevw said:
Actually if you look at the times when Christ does refer to the commandments like murder and adultery. He is speaking of the heart and not the behaviour.

Em, no. Murder and adultery are BEHAVIORS.

Hans Blaster · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
Em, no. Murder and adultery are BEHAVIORS.

Alas, one suspects ol'Steve is doing "hate = murder", "lust = adultry" from the gospels. He'll get to it eventually. That post was kind of short. Cheers.

Jar0fClay · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
Em, no. Murder and adultery are BEHAVIORS.

Hmm... according to Jesus, if you murder or lust in your heart, you've done the deed.

Tinker Grey · Jun 26, 2026

Jar0fClay said:
Hmm... according to Jesus, if you murder or lust in your heart, you've done the deed.

Jesus was wrong.

childeye 2 · Jun 26, 2026

Tinker Grey said:
Jesus was wrong.

How do you mean?

Tinker Grey · Jun 26, 2026

childeye 2 said:
How do you mean?

A thought is not the same as an action

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

Jar0fClay said:
Hmm... according to Jesus, if you murder or lust in your heart, you've done the deed.

I'm not concerned about this. My focus is not on things inside your head--that's in the same sphere as belief. When it becomes action, that's when it becomes my concern. I can understand WHY Jesus would make these remarks. Pharisees like him have a long history of, as the Pirke Avot says, making "a fence around the Torah" That means living in such a way that you don't do things that are even close to breaking a law so that you don't inadvertently end up breaking that law. But I do think Jesus goes too far.

Say it aint so · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
I'm not concerned about this. My focus is not on things inside your head--that's in the same sphere as belief. When it becomes action, that's when it becomes my concern. I can understand WHY Jesus would make these remarks. Pharisees like him have a long history of, as the Pirke Avot says, making "a fence around the Torah" That means living in such a way that you don't do things that are even close to breaking a law so that you don't inadvertently end up breaking that law. But I do think Jesus goes too far.

Interesting. Do we know enough about what Jesus said or didn't say to offer his teachings put a fence around the Torah?
We don't have his direct words or writings. It seems, at least to me, one has to place sole focus on Matthew to support that idea.
Is that enough in light of the other Gospels?

childeye 2 · Jun 26, 2026

Tinker Grey said:
A thought is not the same as an action

I don't think Jesus is denying that, though. His expressed sentiment denotes the same as -> the spirit of the law is greater than the letter of the law and/or -> sin was in the world before the law --> the cleaning the inside of the cup analogy.

Tinker Grey · Jun 26, 2026

childeye 2 said:
I don't think Jesus is denying that, though. His expressed sentiment denotes the same as -> the spirit of the law is greater than the letter of the law and/or -> sin was in the world before the law.

Well, the person I was responding to said, "you've done the deed". That's just wrong.

If the author of Matthew wanted to put words in Jesus' mouth, he should have gone more Pauline such as "guard your hearts and minds".

As it is, he allows an interpretation that physiological responses are sin. It's like equating hunger with gluttony.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
I'm not concerned about this. My focus is not on things inside your head--that's in the same sphere as belief. When it becomes action, that's when it becomes my concern. I can understand WHY Jesus would make these remarks. Pharisees like him have a long history of, as the Pirke Avot says, making "a fence around the Torah" That means living in such a way that you don't do things that are even close to breaking a law so that you don't inadvertently end up breaking that law. But I do think Jesus goes too far.

I don't think Jesus was a Pharisee, so it's probably better to not stretch that claim beyond measure in the effort to make a point.

childeye 2 · Jun 26, 2026

Tinker Grey said:
Well, the person I was responding to said, "you've done the deed". That's just wrong.

If the author of Matthew wanted to put words in Jesus' mouth, he should have gone more Pauline such as "guard your hearts and minds".

As it is, he allows an interpretation that physiological responses are sin. It's like equating hunger with gluttony.

Words can be clumsy, so between the person you were responding to and what you saw in their articulation there is some dissonance. As for the narrative in Matthew, it's about anger that leads to murder, and anger is not in the same category as hunger. Jesus is denoting that sin is something more than an action; similar to why the inside of the cup needs to be cleaned so that the outside is clean, the cup being the soul.

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

Say it aint so said:
Interesting. Do we know enough about what Jesus said or didn't say to offer his teachings put a fence around the Torah?
We don't have his direct words or writings. It seems, at least to me, one has to place sole focus on Matthew to support that idea.
Is that enough in light of the other Gospels?

No. We really don't know what the historical Jesus said since he left no writings. All we have are collections of legends. We have to use our common sense and knowledge of the culture to figure out what is more likely than not, and know that we may be mistaken.

However, many times in here the conversation is simply not on this level.

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
I don't think Jesus was a Pharisee, so it's probably better to not stretch that claim beyond measure in the effort to make a point.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, which is basically the mainstream Christian opinion.

My opinion is based on a quite a few things:
1. As a Jew, I have FAR greater knowledge of Pharisaism than Christians, and it is very obvious to me that if you isolate Jesus' teachings on the Law that they line of with a particular form of Pharisaism taught by Hillel.
2. I read a book on this topic that lays out such a strong case for it that I think it is beyond doubt: "Jesus the Pharisee" by Harvey Falk.
3. There are hints of this in the gospels that are so strong, that even Christians should notice them, and don't only because they read the gospels through an anti-Pharisee lens.

a. Jesus accepted the prophets, a belief promoted by the Pharisees.

b. Jesus accepted the resurrection of the dead, another belief associated with Pharisaism.

c. Jesus accepted Oral Law

(1) He taught his followers to observe an do EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach in Matthew 23:1-3.

(2) He told the Pharisees to BOTH keep the main ideas of the Torah AND keep Oral Torah like the spice tax. Matthew 23:23

(3) We know he observed the Pharisaical custom of ritual hand washing because when the Pharisees griped about it, they accused some of his disciples but did not accuse Jesus.

Say it aint so · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
No. We really don't know what the historical Jesus said since he left no writings. All we have are collections of legends. We have to use our common sense and knowledge of the culture to figure out what is more likely than not, and know that we may be mistaken.

However, many times in here the conversation is simply not on this level.

Agreed. However to me there just isn't enough about Jesus to conclude he was a "fence around the Torah" Pharisee.

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

Say it aint so said:
Agreed. However to me there just isn't enough about Jesus to conclude he was a "fence around the Torah" Pharisee.

Again, if you are strict to the level of a scholar, I agree. However, this particular discussion kind of looks at the Jesus as he is presented in the gospels, and THERE he clearly is, including the instances where he puts a fence around the Torah.

Say it aint so · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
You certainly have a right to your opinion, which is basically the mainstream Christian opinion.

My opinion is based on a quite a few things:
1. As a Jew, I have FAR greater knowledge of Pharisaism than Christians, and it is very obvious to me that if you isolate Jesus' teachings on the Law that they line of with a particular form of Pharisaism taught by Hillel.
2. I read a book on this topic that lays out such a strong case for it that I think it is beyond doubt: "Jesus the Pharisee" by Harvey Falk.
3. There are hints of this in the gospels that are so strong, that even Christians should notice them, and don't only because they read the gospels through an anti-Pharisee lens.

a. Jesus accepted the prophets, a belief promoted by the Pharisees.
b. Jesus accepted the resurrection of the dead, another belief associated with Pharisaism.
c. Jesus accepted Oral Law
(1) He taught his followers to observe an do EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach in Matthew 23:1-3.
(2) He told the Pharisees to BOTH keep the main ideas of the Torah AND keep Oral Torah like the spice tax. Matthew 23:23
(3) We know he observed the Pharisaical custom of ritual hand washing because when the Pharisees griped about it, they accused some of his disciples but did not accuse Jesus.

All from Matthew. Two different schools of Pharisees. I guess one could make a case Jesus was more the Hillel type. Which to me is kind of the opposite of placing a fence around the Torah. No?

Meowzltov · Jun 26, 2026

Say it aint so said:
All from Matthew. Two different schools of Pharisees. I guess one could make a case Jesus was more the Hillel type. Which to me is kind of the opposite of placing a fence around the Torah. No?

No, you are mistaken here. Both schools of Pharisees place a fence around the Torah. For example, even though more lenient in general, Hillel maintained boundaries on preparing certain acts too close to Shabbat to avoid confusion between permitted preparation and prohibited labor.

Say it aint so · Jun 26, 2026

Meowzltov said:
No, you are mistaken here. Both schools of Pharisees place a fence around the Torah. For example, even though more lenient in general, Hillel maintained boundaries on preparing certain acts too close to Shabbat to avoid confusion between permitted preparation and prohibited labor.

Great. I am not saying Jesus per say was part of the Hillel sect. If one could consider Jesus a Pharisee, it would be the Hillel variety.
I say that because, again having to consider all the Gospels, Jesus position of not being so adherent given words surrounding the Sabbath.

Whom do you serve?

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