• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What is the relationship of Israel to the Church?

Aussie52

Wesleyan-Arminian.
Feb 15, 2018
568
298
73
Sydney
✟79,039.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
 

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,848
1,222
34
York
✟187,872.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Israel today lives in rebellion, because they reject Christ as Messiah. They are no better than their enemies. They remind me of Israel in times of Jeremiah, living in sin.
Except for few Jews that have been saved by grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

Many Christian wrongly believe that if they bless Israel today God will bless them. But Israel lives in sin, and God does not bless sin. The blessing from genesis 12 is for seed of Abraham. Seed of Abraham is Christ, and those who are in Him. Not those who live in rebellion.
So many Christians send money to Jews thinking God will bless them. But Jews need the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God today only has one people. A sinner was, is and always will be saved only by geniune faith in Messiah, and that is Jesus Christ.

Now, it is true God still has plan for Israel. As prophet Zachariah says, one third will be saved, but they will go through the Great Tribulation. This is the remnant of Israel described in Romans 11.

Remember. Not all Israel is Israel. The true Israel are believers in Jesus Christ. Now ofc that does not mean the Church has replaced Israel, by no means!

Also, many Christians are looking forward to the third temple. But God is done with physical temples. The Church is the temple of God now. The temples that were before, the holy of hollies, could only be entered by a High Priest once a year, and there was a vail that separated us. Christ is the true High Prist now. Through Him we have constant access to God, and He got away with the vail. But seems like some one to tragically want to go back. The third temple is not for God, it will be for the antichrist!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aussie52
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
8,127
2,795
Perth
✟251,200.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
From a Catholic dogmatic standpoint, Israel and the Church stand in a relationship of both continuity and fulfilment, not separation. The Church teaches that God’s covenant with Israel is irrevocable (Rom 11:29), yet reaches its fullness in Christ, in whom Gentiles are “grafted in” to the one olive tree (Rom 11:17–24). The Catechism affirms that the Church is “the new People of God” (CCC 781) formed from Jews and Gentiles alike, but never in a way that cancels Israel’s unique vocation (CCC 839–840). Thus, there are not two peoples of God, but one people brought together in Christ, the mediator of the New Covenant (Heb 8:6–13). All Scripture speaks to this unity: St Paul teaches that in Christ “there is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one” (Gal 3:28), and that the promises to Abraham come to their fulfilment in Christ and those who belong to Him (Gal 3:16, 29).

When St Paul prophesies that “all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26), Catholic tradition understands this as a future grace by which the Jewish people, in God’s timing, will come to recognise Christ and enter the Church—not as a separate redeemed body, but as part of the one People of God. The Church’s Magisterium explicitly teaches this hope: “The Jewish people will be the first to welcome the Lord’s return” (CCC 674), and their inclusion will be “life from the dead” for the whole world (Rom 11:15). This is not Dispensationalism, nor Covenant Theology in its Reformed form, but the Catholic doctrine of one continuous divine economy culminating in Christ, in whom Israel’s calling is fulfilled and shared with all nations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aussie52
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
12,454
10,380
66
Martinez
✟1,320,117.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
If we look at these questions only in light of scripture, without " any" lens, we can clearly know the truth about Israel. One caveat though, we must define Israel first when using scripture. Here are the biblical identities described void of any theological lens:

-Literal Name:
The name given to Jacob after his struggle with God.
- Physical Nation:
The historical, biological descendants of -Jacob’s twelve tribes.
- Old Testament Metaphor:
A symbolic "son" or "wife" representing the human relationship with God.
-New Testament Expansion:
A spiritual family including all believers, grafted into the promises of Abraham.

With this in mind, here are my answers!


What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

Israel is the Church.

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

The Church is the Body of Christ and everlasting.

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

It needs no explanation, both of these theological views must be explained in light of scripture.


*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

One. Just as Jesus Christ of Nazareth told us.

I John 17:20-21

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

The Church is Israel.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
40,503
30,287
Pacific Northwest
✟869,499.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
When a man proposes to a woman, they are engaged as fiancées. When they get married, they are now married as spouses.

The identity never changed. It's the same man and the same woman. But there is a term we use for their relationship prior to the wedding, and for after.

Israel and the Church are the same. We aren't talking about two different types of people, with two different relationships to God. We are talking about the same people who belong to God through faith according to God's grace in His promises. Under the Old Covenant Israel looked forward to the fullness of time when Jesus would come; in the New Covenant we have the fullness in Jesus, and we are His Church.

The New Testament makes it very clear that in Christ Gentiles are now included within Israel; and both Jew and Gentile are the one Body of Christ, the Church.

There is some nuance we can talk about. Israel is sometimes used more broadly to speak of Jewish persons, both believing and unbelieving. That's why when the Apostle speaks of "all Israel being saved" he is looking forward, in hope, to the an ultimate moment when all Jewish people accept Jesus as the Messiah, as he himself had done. So those nuances exist.

So the Church being Israel, doesn't mean that modern (non-Christian) Jews aren't Israel. They're Israel too. On account, as Paul would say, the covenants and the promises and the blessings made with the patriarchs and the prophets. It's not either-or, it's both-and.

But as for the relationship between Israel (Old Testament) and the Church (New Testament), is a matter of prophetic fulfillment in the Messiah, in Jesus. Which is why I brought up the analogy of a couple before marriage and a couple after marriage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aussie52
Upvote 0

NewLifeInChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
1,870
531
Georgia
✟140,366.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
To me, the answer to these questions is found in the second half of the book of Romans.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. The New King James Version (Ro 9:1–5). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

Paul obviously cared for his countrymen according the flesh. They were caretakers of the kingdom of God before God took his kingdom away from them and gave it to us. The most important aspect of their ministry was that God promised that the Savior of the world would come into the world through them. And God fulfilled that promise when Jesus became a human being.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:​
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,​
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” (Ro 9:30–33)​

But Israel stumbled. And God took His kingdom away from them and gave it to us to be its caretakers.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!​

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.​

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Ro 11:11–24)​

This passage stands both as an explanation for why God took His kingdom away from them (their unbelief/rejection of Jesus as Messiah) and serves as a warning to us that if we don't coninue in His goodness He may take our stewardship of the gospel away from us. It also says that if they do not continue in unbelief, God is able to graft them back in just as He was able to graft us in.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:​
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,​
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;​
27 For this is My covenant with them,​
When I take away their sins.”​
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Ro 11:25–32)​

And concerning the possibility that this may happen for the nation of Israel, Paul states boldly that he believes it will happen. If we remain faithful and avoid losing our stewardship of the gospel, Israel will join us and be joint caretakers of the gospel with us. If as a people we stumble before that happens, believing Israel may become stewards of the gospel with the remnant of us who remain faithful. I don't have any insight into which possibility will come to pass.
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,824
3,134
London, UK
✟1,122,441.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?
John 15 the Vine described it best. Some remain rooted in Christ and those that are not are withered and broken off branches.
* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?
No one is saved except by Christ. He is the key to understanding the old and new covenants. In His light we can say much has been fulfilled in Him and some stuff seems to remain open. The history with the Jews and the prophecies accumulated during that time include some promises about a specific people and land that cannot simply be transferred to the church , but much else can. We are not going to squeeze billions of believers past and present into the land of Israel for example.
*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?
Dispensationalism is relatively new theology and may yet be seen as a passing phase. Through most of history the church has held amillennial views even though premillennialism might be the oldest view formed at a time when the majority of believers were Jewish. Dispensationalism itself was systematized in the early C19 by Darby but you could point to Clement of Alexandria and Augustine for the major themes also. A more laid back view of it that hangs less heavily on dubious details could be held without being a complete heretic. Post tribulation rapture is more prevalent than pre trib as with Dispensationalists.
*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?
There are people from every tribe and nation united by Christ. So the question is faulty.
* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I think Paul was talking about Jews and also the church. The history he gives is specifically Jewish but the theological themes can be applied to all. So BOTH / AND is the best answer here.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie52

Wesleyan-Arminian.
Feb 15, 2018
568
298
73
Sydney
✟79,039.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
John 15 the Vine described it best. Some remain rooted in Christ and those that are not are withered and broken off branches.

No one is saved except by Christ. He is the key to understanding the old and new covenants. In His light we can say much has been fulfilled in Him and some stuff seems to remain open. The history with the Jews and the prophecies accumulated during that time include some promises about a specific people and land that cannot simply be transferred to the church , but much else can. We are not going to squeeze billions of believers past and present into the land of Israel for example.

Dispensationalism is relatively new theology and may yet be seen as a passing phase. Through most of history the church has held amillennial views even though premillennialism might be the oldest view formed at a time when the majority of believers were Jewish. Dispensationalism itself was systematized in the early C19 by Darby but you could point to Clement of Alexandria and Augustine for the major themes also. A more laid back view of it that hangs less heavily on dubious details could be held without being a complete heretic. Post tribulation rapture is more prevalent than pre trib as with Dispensationalists.

There are people from every tribe and nation united by Christ. So the question is faulty.


I think Paul was talking about Jews and also the church. The history he gives is specifically Jewish but the theological themes can be applied to all. So BOTH / AND is the best answer here.
Nice summary. I believe the Church is the fulfillment of the nation Israel, and thus, there is only one 'people of God', the Church.
The question is not faulty. Are there one or two 'peoples of God' at the present moment Israel and/or the Church? Is Israel presently a people of God?
I believe the Land promises given to the Patriarchs in the OT are fulfilled in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the True Israel.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,966
899
Pacific NW, USA
✟202,448.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
Don't expect the picture to become clear for you overnight--this discussion has been ongoing since the Early Church! I personally believe God made an eternal covenant with Abraham to preserve for him Israel as his heritage. Nothing less than an entire nation of Jewish People will fulfill this requirement.

In the Early Church there was little indication that a Jewish nation would embrace Christ. And so, Israel was turned into a symbol of the International Church--something that is more questionable today when the nation of Israel has been restored.

When God called the nation of Israel into existence He also called for many other nations to share with Israel in their Faith inheritance. That's why, I believe, there have been many Christian nations in history. Some deny this, but its obvious that history has identified "Christian nations." They are no more perfect than Israel was, and so we shouldn't expect the fulfillment of these nations of Faith will get there until a cleansing process takes place first.

I think it valuable to view nations as having their own histories. Israel rises and falls, Christian Rome rose and fell, and European-style nations have arisen with a new-found Christian faith, and now are falling back into atheism or humanism. Nations rise and fall!

This was what Paul anticipated when he looked back at Dan 7 and saw the ultimate rise of the Antichrist. Christian nations would fall into apostasy, and this Paul said even before there were any Christian nations! Only Israel at that point had been a nation of faith. And yet Paul identified the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant as being fulfilled among the nations!

In sum, I reject "Replacement Theology," which is the identification of the name "Israel" with the International Church. Israel retains its own national identity, which is important if promises made to Abraham are truly fulfilled.

Thanks for asking!
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,503
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,855.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
* What is the relationship of Israel (descendants of Jacob) to the Church (Body of Christ)?

* Is that relationship one of, continuity, discontinuity or a mixture of both?

*Can this relationship be explained outside of Covenant or Dispensational theology, or not?

*Are there two peoples of God at the present moment or only one?

* When 'all Israel will be saved' Rm 11, will it be as a part of the Church or separate to it?

I appreciate your input as I am grappling with these questions, having recently relinquished Dispensationalism.

Blessings.
And in 2. COR. 3:13 -14 EXPLAINDS why Israel and the OLD COVENANT and Salvationof God was sent too the GENTILES

AND THAT THEY WILL HEAR IN. ACTS 25-28.

And in 2 Cor 15 and 16 says But until. this day , when Moses is being read. , A COVERING. LIES UPON TNEIR HEART. !

AND verse 16 says , But when. ever he should TURN. TO. the LORD , the COVERING its being TAKEN AWAY. !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0