Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

keras said:

The Bible does not say the earth will be no more; before the GWT Judgment. Rev 21:1, is planly after the Judgment.

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Yes the bible does say that the earth and its heaven will be no more before the Great White Throne Judgment in verse 11. Where is God's throne, keras ? If there is no earth, nor its heaven, where are you going to be keras ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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The new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21 is not until after the Great White Throne Judgement.

The New Jerusalem comes down to the new earth, from God out of heaven.

Douggg said:

The new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21 is not until after the Great White Throne Judgement.

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It seems that the Judgment and the old earth disposed of, will happen at the same time. More or less simultaneously. Both after the Millennium.

It will be all of the earthly and mortal world finished and gone. Eternity is entirely Spiritual.

BobRyan said:

The reason for this thread is to avoid confusion on the term "rapture"

Many people will say that it did not exist 300 years ago , when in fact 1 Thess 4 came almost 2000 years ago but the term comes from the latin Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4... and the preMill post trib rapture form is the oldest Historic PreMill position.

But people generally know the term today for its PRETrib form so when they say "The Rapture is a recent teaching" they really mean "the PRETRIB Rapture" is recent.

All the postTrib rapture people feel somewhat "missed" in that over simplification of the broader topic.

Rapture is very old, PostTrib Rapture is very old... but preTrib rapture has some claim to being newer.

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True - and it is the question among the believers as to when what is termed rapture will take place which causes some division. Whether pre, mid, or post departure.

It is not common knowledge when the pre-rapture teachings began but most will say in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald _ theory made famous in the mid 20th century by evangelists such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and a few others.

keras said:

It seems that the Judgment and the old earth disposed of, will happen at the same time. More or less simultaneously. Both after the Millennium.

It will be all of the earthly and mortal world finished and gone. Eternity is entirely Spiritual.

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It doesn't really matter where it will take place exactly, but I would say even though we will not inherit the new heavens and new earth until the judgment is over, that doesn't mean they can't be created just before the judgment with the judgment taking place somewhere within the new heaven or on the new earth.

truthuprootsevil said:

True - and it is the question among the believers as to when what is termed rapture will take place which causes some division. Whether pre, mid, or post departure.

It is not common knowledge when the pre-rapture teachings began but most will say in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald _ theory made famous in the mid 20th century by evangelists such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and a few others.

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I agree, but I think in fairness to Billy Graham it was not something that he talked about a lot or put much emphasis on, from my understanding. Not like other famous pre-trib teachers like Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and Tim LaHaye.

It is actually proof that the 'rapture to heaven' theory is false: how there is no real consensus about when it will? happen.

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory falls flat when it is realized that only Spiritual beings inhabit heaven. It is not until the GWT Judgement that those mortal humans, dead or alive, whose names are found in the Book of Life, are given immortality. Not even the GT martyrs, who will be resurrected back to life by Jesus, or Moses, or David, or Billy Graham, get immortality before the final Judgment.

keras said:

It is actually proof that the 'rapture to heaven' theory is false: how there is no real consensus about when it will? happen.

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory falls flat when it is realized that only Spiritual beings inhabit heaven. It is not until the GWT Judgement that those mortal humans, dead or alive, whose names are found in the Book of Life, are given immortality. Not even the GT martyrs, who will be resurrected back to life by Jesus, or Moses, or David, or Billy Graham, get immortality before the final Judgment.

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I’m sorry, what now? Are you claiming St. Moses the Prophet, St. David the King and Prophet, and the Rev. Billy Graham, memory eternal, will personally resurrect people at the Last Judgement?

keras said:

It seems that the Judgment and the old earth disposed of, will happen at the same time. More or less simultaneously. Both after the Millennium.

It will be all of the earthly and mortal world finished and gone. Eternity is entirely Spiritual.

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In the Nicene Creed we confess a belief in the resurrection of the Body and the life of the world to come, and eschatological texts in the New Testament very clearly describe a physical World to Come.

The Liturgist said:

Are you claiming St. Moses the Prophet, St. David the King and Prophet, and the Rev. Billy Graham, memory eternal, will personally resurrect people at the Last Judgement?

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Of course not.
My point is that immortality is not conferred on anyone before the final Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

The Liturgist said:

In the Nicene Creed we confess a belief in the resurrection of the Body and the life of the world to come, and eschatological texts in the New Testament very clearly describe a physical World to Come

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The Millennium period will be physical life on a physical earth. But after the Millennium, there will be Eternity in the Spiritual dimension forever.

keras said:

Of course not.
My point is that immortality is not conferred on anyone before the final Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

The Millennium period will be physical life on a physical earth. But after the Millennium, there will be Eternity in the Spiritual dimension forever.

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The problem with that is that even pre-Millenarian attempts at reconciliation with the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (which says of our Lord that His Kingdom shall have no end) run into problems if we put a constraint on the length of the physicality of the resurrection, since a Kingdom is a physical thing.

There’s also the issue that this somewhat undermines the glorification of our human form by Christ our God.

Why should He have bothered to rise from the dead in the flesh and to glorify our human flesh if the plan is to abolish this?

There’s also the issue of the Scriptural prophecy of the New Heavens and the New Earth - which implies a new glorified physical existence.

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What motivates you out of curiosity to reject physicality in the Eschaton? Historically a rejection of physicality in the Eschaton was associated with Docetism and related movements, many of which regarded matter and flesh as inherently corrupt and desired purification to a purely pneumatic existence. But Christ our God being born as a man, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, putting on our corruptible nature and so that we could put on incorruption, and glorifying it and remaking our humanity in His image on the sixth day, just as He had made our humanity in his image on the sixth day, refutes the idea of physicality as inherent corruption.

The Liturgist said:

What motivates you out of curiosity to reject physicality in the Eschaton?

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Its simple; physical beings and physical things are not eternal.
I view the new earth and Jerusalem, as Spiritual entities, as heaven is now.

keras said:

physical beings and physical things are not eternal.

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Did not the resurrected Christ visit His disciples as a physical being? Wasn't He immortal?

Spiritual Jew said:

I agree, but I think in fairness to Billy Graham it was not something that he talked about a lot or put much emphasis on, from my understanding. Not like other famous pre-trib teachers like Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and Tim LaHaye.

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Ag

Spiritual Jew said:

I agree, but I think in fairness to Billy Graham it was not something that he talked about a lot or put much emphasis on, from my understanding. Not like other famous pre-trib teachers like Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and Tim LaHaye.

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Agreed, of the pre-trip rapture teachers / preachers I tried to name the most famous two.

Prior to the 1990s I never heard of Lindsay or Van Impe, but I listened to them on TBN back when Paul was alive because they kept up with world events and until now never heard of Tim Lahaye.

keras said:

Its simple; physical beings and physical things are not eternal.

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We are finite created beings, God alone exists outside of time and in dominion over it, but as for our ability to become like him (for as St. Athanasius said in On The Incarnation, God became man so that man might become god - which is to say that we become by grace what Christ is by nature, sons of God according to the promise, adopted by God and inheriting eternal life) Christ, who is eternal, rose from the dead while retaining a glorified human form, and no Scriptural verse indicates that His glorified body is not eternal. On the contrary numerous verses indicate in His resurrected form He is immortal and that we will be immortal.

I view the new earth and Jerusalem, as Spiritual entities, as heaven is now.

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But Heaven as it is now is also not eternal, it is clearly stated that both it and the Earth will be replaced.

The Liturgist said:

numerous verses indicate in His resurrected form He is immortal and that we will be immortal.

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Sure, we have the Promise of Eternal life. John 3:16, +
But Revelation 20,21, make it clear that those who prove themselves to be worthy don't receive immortality until after the GWT Judgment.

The Liturgist said:

But Heaven as it is now is also not eternal, it is clearly stated that both it and the Earth will be replaced.

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Why does God need to make a new heaven? Logically and obviously, the Greek word 'oranous'. translated in Revelation 21:1, refers to the earths sky, or atmosphere. Proved by Rev 21:2, where Gods heaven is where the new Jerusalem comes from.

keras said:

But Revelation 20,21, make it clear that those who prove themselves to be worthy don't receive immortality until after the GWT Judgment.

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Actually, on this point, Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that it is not about proving outselves to be worthy, rather, salvation is by grace, through faith.

What’s interesting is that in asserting this, I am doing so as an Orthodox Christian who rejects Sola Fide and rejects even more vigorously the use of the term “semi-Pelagian” to refer to non-monergist Patristic, Orthodox and Catholic theologians who believe in Divine Synergy, and who believes Luther erred by interpolating the word “alone” into his translation of Romans.

Conversely, I am sympathetic to the reasons for Luther and Calvin’s reaction to pre-Tridentine Roman Catholicism, for it had become legalistic to the point of becoming uncomfortably close to crypto-Pelagian, and while on the one hand there were some extremely beautifully pious Catholic laity during this time (St. Catharine of Sienna from the 14th century comes to mind), we also saw during the 15th and early 16th century some very unpleasant figures in the leadership such as Pope Alexander VI, who is not regarded with the same affection by Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants as earlier Popes such as St. Gregory the Great, St. Gelasius, St. Celestine, St. Damasus, St. Victor or St. Clement, nor is he one of the later Popes who as an Orthodox I feel would be among those who should be venerated if Orthodox-Catholic reunfiication is achieved, such as St. Pius V or St. Pius X or St. John Paul II or Blessed Benedict XVI (whose canonization I hope will proceed as expeditiously as that of his predecessor).

The point being -f I as an Orthodox Christian am stopping and pausing on the basis of concerns about works-righteousness, well, at a minimum, I would respectfully suggest the manner in which you are wording it is problematic.

Also I would note the phrase “Great White Throne Judgement” was not used by the early church fathers, even the small number who subscribed ro Chiliasm (pre-Millenialism) such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons. Rather there is one definitive judgement, that being the Last Judgement,

keras said:

Why does God need to make a new heaven? Logically and obviously, the Greek word 'oranous'. translated in Revelation 21:1, refers to the earths sky, or atmosphere. Proved by Rev 21:2, where Gods heaven is where the new Jerusalem comes from.

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I’m not seeing any of that in the text.

You are aware that God created time and exists independently from it? All things were made by Him, including Heaven. At any rate scripture is clear that Heaven is not our final destination (but is a place of repose before the Last Judgement for the faithful) but rather the World to Come is where we are headed.

And no verse you’ve supplied addresses my point that there is nothing perishing about the resurrected body of Christ our True God, which is by virtue of its glorification, incorruptible and imperishable, yet still physical.

The Liturgist said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that it is not about proving outselves to be worthy, rather, salvation is by grace, through faith.

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WE are saved by believing in and trusting Jesus. Our name is Written in the Book of life, but can be erased by our sin and backsliding. It is Gods grace that forgives our sins, provided true repentance is made.

The Liturgist said:

I’m not seeing any of that in the text.

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Well; it is a fact that 'oranous' can be translated as Gods heaven, or the earths atmosphere. Context decides. Rev 21:1 refers to our sky, Rev 21:2 refers to Gods dwelling place.

This discussion is way off the thread subject. Are you a believer in the idea of the Church being taken to live in Gods heaven?
If so, please provide scriptural proof of it and explain why the living Christians today should escape Tribulations, when every Christian martyr over the last 2000 years, was murdered?

keras said:

This discussion is way off the thread subject. Are you a believer in the idea of the Church being taken to live in Gods heaven?
If so, please provide scriptural proof of it and explain why the living Christians today should escape Tribulations, when every Christian martyr over the last 2000 years, was murdered?

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I reject the idea of a pre-Tribulation rapture and of pre-Millenarianism as these are both precluded by the same thing you referred to (the fact that the Tribulation has been going on since Pentecost in AD 33), and Orthodox Christians are still being martyred now in Syria, Armenia, Iraq, Ethiopia, Egypt (and North Africa more generally) India, Palestine, Pakistan, Nigeria and other places. For this and other reasons the Greek Orthodox fathers (without any Roman Catholic influence) at the Council of Constantinople deemed that the 1,000 years were representing infinity (just as other large numbers have been used to represent infinity, such as seventy times seven; our Lord obviously did not mean to say that we should only forgive our brother 490 times, and on the 491st offense, no more forgiveness; very sadly most humans, due to our fallen, sinful nature, are not that patient and we tend to switch to revenge-seeking behavior after at most a few dozen confrontations except to some extent with relatives).

The Council of Constantinople, despite having been convened as a local council, was then adopted ecumenically and became the Second Ecumenical Synod, and while some Premillenarians do confess the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, it is a fact that the caluse “whose kingdom shall have no end” was included in an attempt to catechize against Chiliasm (more specifically, against the idea of Christ’s rule being finite).