Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

under grace1 · 2026-06-12T15:01:33-0500

fhansen said:
Of course, for all people. Are you perfected in love? Love, the very nature of God we're to be transformed into, is the antedote for sin. That's why/how it fulfills the law. Again duress, habit, mental hea;lth, etc all contribute to culpability but in genernal the human will is involved in sin. It would be absurd to say that I didn't want to sin...when I sinned, even if I had a divided heart on the matter, with competing desires.

Did you actually read the post??? Doesn't appear to be so.

It would probably help in this case.

I agree, love is the antedote for sin. But Im grateful you agree we will not be sinless in this life. Jesus commands can be summed up as love your neighbour, hence Gal6:2. So if we are honest, it shows us how far we are from a love that fulfills the law.
But I can only repeat, the best examples of Christianity Ive seen have come from people who do not stress how well we should live our lives, but people who are constantly grateful to God for the Amazing Grace given to us through Christ.
I havent been made perfect in love in regard to obeying all of the law/commandments, no, I fall short constantly of the pristene level set by those commands
But I am perfect, as seen by God even while I am being made holy, for he sees the sacrifice his son made for me at Calvary
One way in which I like to show love and consideration for my brother and sister is never to insist of them what I do not insist of myself

fhansen · 2026-06-12T15:23:49-0500

under grace1 said:
But I can only repeat, the best examples of Christianity Ive seen have come from people who do not stress how well we should live our lives, but people who are constantly grateful to God for the Amazing Grace given to us through Christ.

Alright, and while you apparently would not rank a gross sinner as even being Christian regardless of any profession, you see yourself as one even though you sin. So...do we agree that there's a level or degree or gravity of sin that should disqualify one from being Christian? There must be a way to identify that behavior-so we'll know. You've aready given an example in a previous post, in fact.

And the best Christian examples I've seen, BTW, are those who're aware they must live their lives as a child of God should, striving and struggling at times to do so, and are constantly grateful to God for the Amazing Grace given to us through Christ. They don't translate that grace into some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe, regardless of what I do, tho; they underastnd the true nature and role of faith and its relationship to rightousness, to love. Gal 5:6 gives some insight, as well as the 16th century quote, again, following, :

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Carl Emerson · 2026-06-12T15:25:02-0500

Jan001 said:
John was addressing faithful Christians. Jesus Christ promised eternal life to all Christians who remain faithful to him until they die.

How did he know they would remain faithful ?

under grace1 · 2026-06-12T15:27:51-0500

fhansen said:
Alright, and while you apparently would not rank a gross sinner as even being Christian regardless of any profession, you see yourself as one even though you sin. So...do we agree that there's a level or degree or gravity of sin that should disqualify one from being Christian? There must be a way to identify that behavior-so we'll know. You've aready given an example in a previous post, in fact.

And the best Christian examples I've seen, BTW, are those who're aware they must live their lives as a child of God should, striving and struggling at times to do so, and are constantly grateful to God for the Amazing Grace given to us through Christ. They don't translate that grace into some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe, regardless of what I do, tho; they underastnd the true nature and role of faith and its relationship to rightousness, to love. Gal 5:6 gives some insight, as well as the 16th century quote, again, following, :

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Please read the following:

I went to a church once to please a friend on Saturdays. It was relentlessly stressed: ''You must obey the TC'' The people there firmly believed you must obey the TC to attain to Heaven. In fact, a few were surprised when I told them believers have no righteousness of obeying those commands. I could tell by their facial expressions, they were cynical to put it mildly.

So, they earnestly stressed you must obey the TC as a precondition to enter Heaven, I on the other hand believe you have no righteousness before God of obeying them. The second week I was there, I was literally shocked and stunned to see two women, laughing and joking as they took the Lord’s name in vain, apparently unaware they were transgressing the commands they insisted everyone must obey. From that moment on I became uneasy in the church. And it was not just two women taking the Lord’s name in vain by any means. I had never come across such a thing before in any church I have been to.

One woman, was immaculately dressed for church with a bible tucked under her arm, she too insisted you must obey the TC. And if the minister said something she approved of during the sermon, she gave out a hearty ‘’AMEN’’ To be honest, If I had met her in the church of my youth, the guilt would have piled up on, believing she must be living a far more Godly life than I was. She too insisted you must obey the TC. After a while I found out she was having multiple affairs, sometimees overlapping. I said to her one day: ‘’How can you do that, you’re breaking the TC’’ She shrugged her shoulders and responded: ‘’All sin is equal and no ones perfect.’’ If I was living as she was, I could not enter a church and heartily join in the service, that would be beyond me.

So who cared more, who was more sensitive to the TC being transgressed, me, who believes you have no righteousness of obeying them, or the people who constantly believed they must be obeyed if you expect to enter Heaven?

Carl Emerson · 2026-06-12T15:29:20-0500

Jan001 said:
Isaiah was addressing the Israelite nation as a whole. As you can see, a few Israelite individuals, such as Isaiah, were righteous, but most of the Israelites were not. The nation of Israel was not righteous. The prophets and the Israelite people in Jesus Christ's lineage were righteous. Isaiah used hyperbole when he said that all of the Israelites had gone astray because most of them had.

Isaiah made no claim to righteousness when encountering the Holiness of God.

Carl Emerson · 2026-06-12T15:36:41-0500

Jan001 said:
Being "born again" means being "baptized" as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20. After we are born again, freed from Adam's sin and our own at the time of our baptism, then we are to be taught by the church how to remain a good disciple of Jesus Christ. If we remain a good disciple—follower—of Jesus Christ until we die, we will be approved to inherit eternal life.

I belong to Jesus Christ's church.

I note your reluctance to disclose your denomination..

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again He said nothing about baptism.

Carl Emerson · 2026-06-12T15:39:02-0500

fhansen said:
Something I’ve noticed here is people making unsubstantiated claims. No one asked me about evidence. But Paul told us that some are given the gift of healing, some the gift of miracles, some knowledge, some faith, etc. So congratulations for whatever you’ve been given. I also like Augustine’s statement that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."

For myself the greatest gift is the gift of love; love trumps and crowns everything else. And where I’ve contributed to helping others: down-and outers, drug addicts, just plain Joes, through acceptance and forgiveness and love, showing them the love I’ve been shown, demonstrating in word and deed the goodness and mercy and love of God, and then seen them change, seen them convert to God, seen them overcome their depression and anger and oftentimes dreadful backgrounds, that is the greatest miracle, one that isn’t temporary but eternal.

Bless you - I have worked in the same arena.

under grace1 · 2026-06-12T16:39:49-0500

Jan001 said:
Isaiah was addressing the Israelite nation as a whole. As you can see, a few Israelite individuals, such as Isaiah, were righteous, but most of the Israelites were not. The nation of Israel was not righteous. The prophets and the Israelite people in Jesus Christ's lineage were righteous. Isaiah used hyperbole when he said that all of the Israelites had gone astray because most of them had.

Isaiah 64:5
You meet those who gladly do right,
those who remember you in your ways.

We could clarify your point:
Do not bring your servant into judgement, for NO ONE LIVING is righteous before you Psalms143:2

There is considered righteousness and true righteousness, the first is available, the second is not, that is why the believers righteousness is faith in Christ, and when Jesus died at Calvary he died for those who had previously lived also

fhansen · 2026-06-12T17:09:00-0500

under grace1 said:
So who cared more, who was more sensitive to the TC being transgressed, me, who believes you have no righteousness of obeying them, or the people who constantly believed they must be obeyed if you expect to enter Heaven?

Well, if I understood you correctly, it would've been better for you to be unaware of the TC to begin with!?? Either way, IMO, it was good that you were aware of it, and that you were sensitive about it.

Now, if you're really just telling me that you've been offended by folks who practice Christianity hypocritically, legalistically, "Pharisaically", then so have I and many others. But if you're telling me that it's better for people to not know when they're wrong, that they're sinners, and to know they have obligation to be righteous and live accordingly, then I would disagree. I sought God and found that He would do that work in me-work I failed at-if I asked, if I was willing, if I turned to Him, and He's still working on it in various areas-praise God!-I can be a stubborn one...

I'd also add that this hypocrisy thing is something all humans have to be on the lookout for. It can sneak in pretty easily.

under grace1 · 2026-06-12T17:12:17-0500

fhansen said:
Well, if I understood you correctly, it would've been better for you to be unaware of the TC to begin with!?? Either way, IMO, it was good that you were aware of it, and that you were sensitive about it.

Now, if you're really just telling me that you've been offended by folks who practice Christianity hypocritically, legalistically, "Pharisaically", then so have I and many others. But if you're telling me that it's better for people to not know when they're wrong, that they're sinners, and to know they have obligation to be righteous and live accordingly, then I would disagree. I sought God and found that He would do that work in me-work I failed at-if I asked, if I was willing, if I turned to Him, and He's still working on it in various areas-praise God!-I can be a stubborn one...

I'd also add that this hypocrisy thing is something all humans have to be on the lookout for. It can sneak in pretty easily.

How can people not know when they transgress applicable law, how can they sin in ignorance concerning it? Under the core terms of the new covenant, God writes applicable law in the mind and places it on the hearts of believers. You must know in your mind what has been placed in your mind, the law in your heart must bring heartfelt consciousness of sin , for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

fhansen · 2026-06-12T20:20:42-0500

under grace1 said:
How can people not know when they transgress applicable law, how can they sin in ignorance concerning it? Under the core terms of the new covenant, God writes applicable law in the mind and places it on the hearts of believers. You must know in your mind what has been placed in your mind, the law in your heart must bring heartfelt consciousness of sin , for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Ok, and so those people probably knew they were wrong but proceeded to do it anyway, not walking with God, in the Spirit, while professing to be His followers.

under grace1 · 2026-06-12T23:49:05-0500

fhansen said:
Ok, and so those people probably knew they were wrong but proceeded to do it anyway, not walking with God, in the Spirit, while professing to be His followers.

Interesting point. If you are correct, they were insisting of others what they did not insist of themselves. Jesus reserved his harshest words for such people.
Paul gave an example of why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law, the example given was one of the TC, he could not obey it, for he could not obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only he and God need know he broke.

As a young person, who in effect believed in righteousness of obeying the law, I constantly failed, and felt much guilt because of it. For I knew I was not obeying the law regarding the inner person also. I was too young to commit adultery, and didn’t want to steal, or lie, or take the Lords name in vain. But I knew sin was sin, whether committed outwardly or inwardly.

I often wonder, when people want a righteousness of obeying the law/TC, whether they include what goes on, on the inside of them concerning that, or whether they hinge everything on outward appearance.

under grace1 · 2026-06-13T00:10:11-0500

As a young teenager I lived earnestly under righteousness of obeying the law, in effect. Heaven hinged on obeying God’s laws, not committing sin. I believed Jesus died for my sins, but that did not mean I was free to sin, I must live a pure and holy life for God. But then, on the inside the sin would not go away, the more I feared it could send me to hell the worse it got. I wasn’t perfect on the outside, but it was what went on, on the inside that filled me with huge guilt. I became you might say full of all manner of concupiscence(Rom7:8 KJV) I gave up with God and walked away from the faith for a while, I could not live as a Christian should live, and as I imagined others were living who kept insisting we must obey God’s laws.

A few years later someone gave me a book to read, in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace, I was stunned by what I read, I could have no righteousness of obeying God’s laws. I believed even I could be a Christian as that was the case, so, I recommitted my life to Christ. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it, the law was in my heart. There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it was my master, it transgressed one of the TC. I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him.

The next three days were so hard, I was faced with a completely different way of seeing things, here I was transgressing one of the TC but looking to Jesus and trusting he was my right standing before God. A voice in my head constantly told me I was just a hypocrite and faking Christianity, I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing. And every fibre of my rational being agreed with that voice, it had to be the only correct and logical truth, but the bible stated I was righteous apart from obeying the law, so I clung to that in simple faith, logic had to be cast aside.

On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years, a sin that had been my master stopped. When I feared it could send me to hell it only got worse:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

Aussie52 · 2026-06-13T02:19:25-0500

under grace1 said:
As a young teenager I lived earnestly under righteousness of obeying the law, in effect. Heaven hinged on obeying God’s laws, not committing sin. I believed Jesus died for my sins, but that did not mean I was free to sin, I must live a pure and holy life for God. But then, on the inside the sin would not go away, the more I feared it could send me to hell the worse it got. I wasn’t perfect on the outside, but it was what went on, on the inside that filled me with huge guilt. I became you might say full of all manner of concupiscence(Rom7:8 KJV) I gave up with God and walked away from the faith for a while, I could not live as a Christian should live, and as I imagined others were living who kept insisting we must obey God’s laws.

A few years later someone gave me a book to read, in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace, I was stunned by what I read, I could have no righteousness of obeying God’s laws. I believed even I could be a Christian as that was the case, so, I recommitted my life to Christ. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it, the law was in my heart. There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it was my master, it transgressed one of the TC. I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him.

The next three days were so hard, I was faced with a completely different way of seeing things, here I was transgressing one of the TC but looking to Jesus and trusting he was my right standing before God. A voice in my head constantly told me I was just a hypocrite and faking Christianity, I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing. And every fibre of my rational being agreed with that voice, it had to be the only correct and logical truth, but the bible stated I was righteous apart from obeying the law, so I clung to that in simple faith, logic had to be cast aside.

On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years, a sin that had been my master stopped. When I feared it could send me to hell it only got worse:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

Sounds to me like you were stifling the voice of the Holy Spirit, convicting you of your sin and calling you to a more victorious walk with Him. Now you have settled for Antinomianism. How sad.

Carl Emerson · 2026-06-13T02:45:19-0500

I think another aspect that is rarely spoken of is the specificity of the Law of the Spirit within.

The 'ten' present broad guidelines for behaviours... but the indwelling Spirit who represents the all knowing Father and understands every aspect of our circumstances makes calls on us to a much greater and specific obedience.

This means that, instead of thou shalt do this, and not do that, we are given the extra personal prompting relating to the appropriate time and way to act.

Then we are not under Law or even good principle, but subject to the specific requirement of the Spirit who according to Isaiah 11 presents Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Council, among others. What kicks in is like divine situational ethics - the exact way to act in specific circumstances and when.

Rahab acting in faith from God, lied to the pursuers and is forever recognised for her faith.

Had she acted according to the ten, and not bore false witness, - it would have been gross disobedience.

3 Then the king of Jericho sent to Rahab, saying, “Bring out the men who have come to you, who entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land.” 4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. And she said, “True, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. 5 And when the gate was about to be closed at dark, the men went out. I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.” 6 But she had brought them up to the roof and hid them with the stalks of flax that she had laid in order on the roof.

Faith has always been superior to Law. 'What the Law could not do - Christ did...' Because He could only do what He saw the Father doing which is a far higher standard of righteousness...

The matter that accompanies this walk of Faith is that we come under stricter judgement in being directly beholden to the Law of the Spirit of Life within - and actually have more reason to obey, not less as some claim.

under grace1 · 2026-06-13T04:32:13-0500

Aussie52 said:
Sounds to me like you were stifling the voice of the Holy Spirit, convicting you of your sin and calling you to a more victorious walk with Him. Now you have settled for Antinomianism. How sad.

Stifling the voice of the Holy Spirit concerning sin?
I couldn't escape thinking about my imperfections!!
You accuse me of antinominaism yet in the post I wrote of how a sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped!
The natural mind of man believes, if you remove righteousness of obeying the law you have a licence to sin. To Paul's spiritual mind, it was the way to seeing sin not being your master. The natural mind cannot lead into spiritual truth
In Rom3:20-30 Paul goes into detail explaining the believer has no righteousness of obeying the law, their righteousness is faith in Christ apart from law, they are not justified by works. What would many of his readers have thought after reading that? Just the same as many do today:
Well if we are justified apart from obeying the law we can act however we like and it doesn't matter

And Paul would have known that, therefore to correct such a wrong assumption, he wrote in the final verse of that chapter:
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom3:31
In other words, by living under righteousness apart from law, you will live a far holier life. It is a spiritual message, that can only be understood through the Spirit's enlightenment

Aussie52 · 2026-06-13T05:39:54-0500

under grace1 said:
Stifling the voice of the Holy Spirit concerning sin?
I couldn't escape thinking about my imperfections!!
You accuse me of antinominaism yet in the post I wrote of how a sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped!
The natural mind of man believes, if you remove righteousness of obeying the law you have a licence to sin. To Paul's spiritual mind, it was the way to seeing sin not being your master. The natural mind cannot lead into spiritual truth
In Rom3:20-30 Paul goes into detail explaining the believer has no righteousness of obeying the law, their righteousness is faith in Christ apart from law, they are not justified by works. What would many of his readers have thought after reading that? Just the same as many do today:
Well if we are justified apart from obeying the law we can act however we like and it doesn't matter

And Paul would have known that, therefore to correct such a wrong assumption, he wrote in the final verse of that chapter:
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom3:31
In other words, by living under righteousness apart from law, you will live a far holier life. It is a spiritual message, that can only be understood through the Spirit's enlightenment

To be without the Law is to be 'lawless', antinomian.

under grace1 · 2026-06-13T08:46:20-0500

Aussie52 said:
To be without the Law is to be 'lawless', antinomian.

What is written in the moral law has not been abolished, righteousness of obeying it has been

fhansen · 2026-06-13T10:03:50-0500

under grace1 said:
What is written in the moral law has not been abolished, righteousness of obeying it has been

What does that mean, tho? That the need for righteousness, itself, has been abolished, or that the need to become righteous by observance of the law, by the Letter, has been abolished? The following statements by Paul can easily be reconciled without assigning each to different covenants, which the context doesn't allow for anyway (they all work under the new covenant):

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:8-10

"We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." Gal 2:15-16

We are made just, not merely imputed or declared to be just, by faith in Christ, by connection to the Vine, IOW, who is God.

fhansen · 2026-06-13T10:06:58-0500

under grace1 said:
As a young teenager I lived earnestly under righteousness of obeying the law, in effect. Heaven hinged on obeying God’s laws, not committing sin. I believed Jesus died for my sins, but that did not mean I was free to sin, I must live a pure and holy life for God. But then, on the inside the sin would not go away, the more I feared it could send me to hell the worse it got. I wasn’t perfect on the outside, but it was what went on, on the inside that filled me with huge guilt. I became you might say full of all manner of concupiscence(Rom7:8 KJV) I gave up with God and walked away from the faith for a while, I could not live as a Christian should live, and as I imagined others were living who kept insisting we must obey God’s laws.

A few years later someone gave me a book to read, in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace, I was stunned by what I read, I could have no righteousness of obeying God’s laws. I believed even I could be a Christian as that was the case, so, I recommitted my life to Christ. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it, the law was in my heart. There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it was my master, it transgressed one of the TC. I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him.

The next three days were so hard, I was faced with a completely different way of seeing things, here I was transgressing one of the TC but looking to Jesus and trusting he was my right standing before God. A voice in my head constantly told me I was just a hypocrite and faking Christianity, I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing. And every fibre of my rational being agreed with that voice, it had to be the only correct and logical truth, but the bible stated I was righteous apart from obeying the law, so I clung to that in simple faith, logic had to be cast aside.

On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years, a sin that had been my master stopped. When I feared it could send me to hell it only got worse:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

So do you now think it was ok to transgress the TC-or that you were just attempting to do it the wrong way?

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