Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Hentenza · Tuesday at 9:14 PM

Jipsah said:
Dunno. If I could find that Scripture that declares that everyone ever born will live forever that would settle it. You should have that reference right there at hand. <Laugh>

And yet you still don’t know.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 9:15 PM

Jipsah said:
Is that the one that says that "death" never actualy means "death"?

Strawman. No surprise here.

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:16 PM

Hentenza said:
And yet you still don’t know.

What, the "everybody lives forever", verse? That's the basis for your dogma. not mine.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 9:19 PM

Jipsah said:
What, the "everybody lives forever", verse? That's the basis for your dogma. not mine.

Been there done that. Study the two states of aionios.

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:19 PM

Hentenza said:
Strawman. No surprise here.

A strawman, in the Bible? Yours,maybe. What were the wages of sin, again? What is God able to do to both body and soul in hell? Is that in your Bible?

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:21 PM

Hentenza said:
Been there done that. Study the two states of aionios.

Hey, ain't my job to defend your bogus dogmas. Can God destroy both body and soul in hell in your "everybpdy lives forever" doctrine?

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:23 PM

Hentenza said:
And yet you still don’t know.

I know where your "everybody has eternal life by default" verse is. Nowhere.

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:26 PM

Hentenza said:
Strawman.

Nope. Just something your "everybody has eternal life" can't deal with. All you have left is "neener neener".

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:28 PM

Jipsah said:
Nope. Just something your "everybody has eternal life" can't deal with. All you have left is "neener neener".

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:30 PM

Hentenza said:
Or you could exegete the verses.

I'd like to see you "exegete
the verses that say that everyone has eternal life by default. Of course, you'd have to find them first....

Jipsah · Tuesday at 9:31 PM

Hentenza said:
Been there done that. Study the two states of aionios.

Study Matthew 10:28

Hentenza · Tuesday at 9:34 PM

Jipsah said:
A strawman, in the Bible? Yours,maybe. What were the wages of sin, again? What is God able to do to both body and soul in hell? Is that in your Bible?

Jipsah said:
Hey, ain't my job to defend your bogus dogmas. Can God destroy both body and soul in hell in your "everybpdy lives forever" doctrine?

Jipsah said:
I know where your "everybody has eternal life by default" verse is. Nowhere.

Jipsah said:
Nope. Just something your "everybody has eternal life" can't deal with. All you have left is "neener neener".

Start with the easy verse.

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:46 (NASB2020) - These will go away into eternal pun | YouVersion

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

bible.com

I know we have been through this before but, if I remember correctly, you deflected as usual. If eternal life is eternal then eternal punishment is eternal also. If the bodies of the saved are eternal then the bodies of the unsaved are eternal also.

So who are the people outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22? Are they dead?

I bet you are going to deflect again.

ProtestantChr1stian · 2026-06-10T01:02:37-0500

Jipsah said:
I know where your "everybody has eternal life by default" verse is. Nowhere.

John 3:16. You're welcome.

David Lamb · 2026-06-10T02:36:26-0500

ProtestantChr1stian said:
John 3:16. You're welcome.

John 3:16 does not say that everybody has eternal life: by default

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who have everlasting life, not everybody.

JulieB67 · 2026-06-10T06:07:59-0500

Hentenza said:
So who are the people outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22? Are they dead?

Yes, they are an example of what will not make inside the gates. We have to remember that John is told to write about the past, present and future. We are told what will exactly happen to the wicked, so there need be confusion. They will be turned to ashes. And Sodom and Gomorrah are laid out as our example of what will happen -ashes and eternal destruction.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

This is future, after Judgement Day, when the former things are passed away and when Christ himself says he makes all things new. The lake of fire will be a former thing at that point.

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Verse 15 is just reiterating the fact that everyone inside will have nothing offensive. And that's because all things are new and the former things are passed away.

If we took this verse literally we would then believe they are literally "outside" the gates into the city. And that's not what you believe either. You believe they are burning in the Lake of Fire. But again, we know what will happen to the wicked, they will suffer the second death.

There's a reason it's called the second death and I think that lines up with the entire bible -life or death. Death is punishment no matter what people think otherwise. It's still considered punishment today. And the second death is eternal destruction which would be eternal punishment. Yes, the smoke does rise forever. But we've seen that there will be nothing left of the wicked, leaving there with neither root or branch. And again Sodom and Gomorrah are our example -being destroyed and turned to ash with "eternal" fire.

Hentenza, I know you and I agree on other subjects on other threads and I was taught as you this doctrine as well. But I just don't see it when I take the bible as a whole. And I myself don't see this in the nature of God. He doesn't even want the wicked to die or perish -takes no pleasure in that. That's why he's so long suffering. And yet we are to believe he would burn someone for an eternity? I just don't believe or see it in the Word.

But as someone else said no one's beliefs are probably going to change in this thread.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2026-06-10T06:23:33-0500

ListenToTheBible! said:
Where did Adam and Eve go?
God said they'd DIE- not continue living as 'immortal souls'.
And "sheol/hell/hades" refers to the GRAVE!

Adam was/is God's son, Luke 3:38
God is the Father of ALL people, Matt. 23:9
Adam is still around, now in One Spirit, from God who gave him that spirit, Eccl. 12:7
1 Cor. 15 states explicitly what happened to Adam:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The "first" and "last" and "elder" "younger" principles of the scriptures are based on Paul's disclosure, first the natural, then the spiritual. This theme is played out throughout the scriptures, referenced many times by Jesus.

There was Adam 1, blinded by the God of this world, placed in a disposable dust container and subjected to eventual death by virtues of God's Own Commands placing Adam in weakness, corruption and dishonor.

For what reason you say?

Again, Paul was very specific:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Hentenza · 2026-06-10T08:33:18-0500

JulieB67 said:
Yes, they are an example of what will not make inside the gates. We have to remember that John is told to write about the past, present and future. We are told what will exactly happen to the wicked, so there need be confusion. They will be turned to ashes. And Sodom and Gomorrah are laid out as our example of what will happen -ashes and eternal destruction.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

This is future, after Judgement Day, when the former things are passed away and when Christ himself says he makes all things new. The lake of fire will be a former thing at that point.

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Verse 15 is just reiterating the fact that everyone inside will have nothing offensive. And that's because all things are new and the former things are passed away.

That’s not what the verses teach. These verses outline the final, binary destiny of humanity and that is that those who have been spiritually cleansed have free access to eternal life, while the unrepentant are permanently excluded from God’s presence. Those who cleansed their robes, cleansed from sin through faith and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, are allowed into the presence of God while the wicked are permanently separated from the presence of God.

JulieB67 said:
If we took this verse literally we would then believe they are literally "outside" the gates into the city. And that's not what you believe either. You believe they are burning in the Lake of Fire. But again, we know what will happen to the wicked, they will suffer the second death.

The second death is the final separation from God which the Bible describes in terms of the lake of fire (there is no literal lake of fire or Gehenna but imagery of how awful the fate of the wicked will be). Those outside of the gate do not have access to the tree of life which is a symbol of eternal life and restored fellowship with God, a privilege lost in the Garden of Eden but regained in heaven. This is making all things new not just “killing” the wicked.

JulieB67 said:
There's a reason it's called the second death and I think that lines up with the entire bible -life or death. Death is punishment no matter what people think otherwise. It's still considered punishment today. And the second death is eternal destruction which would be eternal punishment. Yes, the smoke does rise forever. But we've seen that there will be nothing left of the wicked, leaving there with neither root or branch. And again Sodom and Gomorrah are our example -being destroyed and turned to ash with "eternal" fire.

We are talking about spiritual death throughout the Bible not physical death. All are destined to die once physically and then the judgement which is spiritual (Heb. 9:27). All will be resurrected for judgement (Rev. 20)

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 20:12 (NASB2020) - And I saw the dead, the great and t | YouVersion

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which w

bible.com

You can see an example of the biblical usage of “dead” in the verses above. These dead are judged and that can’t happen if they are literally and physically dead. All of these are spiritually dead.

JulieB67 said:
Hentenza, I know you and I agree on other subjects on other threads and I was taught as you this doctrine as well. But I just don't see it when I take the bible as a whole. And I myself don't see this in the nature of God. He doesn't even want the wicked to die or perish -takes no pleasure in that. That's why he's so long suffering. And yet we are to believe he would burn someone for an eternity? I just don't believe or see it in the Word.

Julie, yes, we agree on many things outside of this topic and not agreeing here does not change that you are my sister in Christ. I don’t believe that the wicked are physically burned forever. I believe that complete, spiritual separation from God is consistent with the Bible message and the constant exhortation to believe “today” (Heb. 4) and that Jesus will be coming soon (Rev. 22).

I don’t believe in a literal spiritual death because there is no imagery of this in scripture. Even the wicked that died in the flood are not spiritually dead but in “prison” where Jesus went to proclaim His victory (1 Peter 3:19) after His physical death.

I also believe that the Incarnation of Christ fundamentally unites human nature and spirit with the eternal God, making complete non-existence for any rational soul impossible.

JulieB67 said:
But as someone else said no one's beliefs are probably going to change in this thread.

It’s not the people discussing in any thread that might or might not change their mind but the readers that don’t participate and are looking for answers. They get to read both sides and hopefully get enough information to understand the topic.

FreeinChrist · 2026-06-10T12:51:09-0500

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a small clean up due to a problem member and the responses to his posts.

Carry on.

Jipsah · 2026-06-10T13:23:51-0500

ProtestantChr1stian said:
John 3:16.

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””

OK, I see that ONE of those groups has eternal life. But your claim is that EVERYBODY does, right? Thanks for the "own goal"'. <Laugh>

ProtestantChr1stian said:
I know we have been through this before but, if I remember correctly, you deflected as usual.

"deflected" meaning I didn't agree with your rubbish.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
If eternal life is eternal then eternal punishment is eternal also.

Death is about as eternal as one can get.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
If the bodies of the saved are eternal then the bodies of the unsaved are eternal also.

Reference, please.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
So who are the people outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22? Are they dead?

THwy're there watching the smoke rise forever from burning Sodom.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
I bet you are going to deflect again.

I'll bet you'll fail to "understand" my reply again. <Laugh>

truthuprootsevil · 2026-06-10T14:37:09-0500

Dan1988 said:
There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

Here is some of of over 20 scriptures that support destruction.

Matthew 10:28 fear him who can *destroy* both body and soul in hell

2nd Thessalonians 1:9 who shall be punished with *everlasting destruction* from the presence of the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be *destroyed* is death

Revelation 21:8 the fearful _______ which is the *second death*

Malachi 4:1 the day coming that shall burn as an oven _____ the wicked shall be stubble ____ *leave them neither root nor branch*

2nd Peter 3:7 the judgment and *prediction* of ungodly men (damnation destruction)

Psalms 92:7 it is they that shall be *destroyed forever*

Proverbs 10:29 but *destruction* to the workers of iniquity

Hebrews/ Israelites believed Sheol was the grave a place where all the dead go without consciousness waiting judgment. No torture

Sheol | Definition, Meaning in Hebrew Bible, & Facts | Britannica Sheol | Definition, Meaning in Hebrew Bible, & Facts | Britannica

Gehenna: actually a place first called Ge Hinnom where the Hebrews sacrifice their children to Moloch. Somehow got trans formed into hell
Ge Hinnom | Judaism | Britannica Ge Hinnom | Judaism | Britannica

Greeks and Romans believed hell was a place of eternal punishment
Hell - Greek, Roman, Mythology | Britannica Hell - Greek, Roman, Mythology | Britannica

Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

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