Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

ViaCrucis said:

Can I worship God on the day the Lord rose form the dead by gathering with the Body and partaking of the Lord's Supper?

Click to expand...

We should devote ourselves to God everyday, but Jesus related false worship as keeping traditions of men over keeping the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat 15:3-14 in contrast to His faithful who keep God’s commandments until the very end of time Rev14:12 Jesus never told anyone a change of His commandments after He rose, His faithful followers that were first to see Him were still keeping the Sabbath Luke23:56 just as Jesus indicated Isa 56:6-7 Mat24:20 and we see in the life of His apostles decades after the Cross Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4 etc. The change of the day came from mans traditions over a commandment of God, written by God Himself. Exo31:18 it was even predicted it would be changed, not by God Dan7:25

ViaCrucis said:

Can I worship God on the day the Lord rose form the dead by gathering with the Body and partaking of the Lord's Supper?

Click to expand...

You should at least consider doing so!! KIK

keras said:

But only one into immortality,- after the Millennium.

Click to expand...

This at the Second Coming for those blessed and holy that were part of the first resurrection. How can anyone be in the presence of God and always be with Him without being changed into immortality - no one can be with God without being transformed 1 Cor 15:53

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

keras said:

The first resurrection of the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, is back to mortal bodies and they can die again, as Rev 20:56 makes clear.

Click to expand...

There is no verse for Rev20:56

keras said:

What there is 'no way' for, is anyone gaining immortality before the Judgment.

Click to expand...

That is judgement for the saved, the first resurrection God deemed them Blessed and holy.

keras said:

Again; Isaiah 65:20 proves humans will still die during the Millennium. The same ones who will go annually to the Temple. Zechariah 14:16-21

Click to expand...

I do not see anywhere in Isa 65:20 speaks of the Millennium

keras said:

BTW, I get a laugh from how people make mistakes in posting with their phones. You can resign with Jesus; I won't!

Click to expand...

I know! My fingers type slower than how my brain works. Thanks for catching that!

keras said:

I will live in the New Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

With the present earth and its heaven destroyed right before the Great White Throne judgement takes place - and that you believe that you will stand before the Great White throne judgment - where will the Great White Throne Judgement take place ?

Douggg said:

where will the Great White Throne Judgement take place ?

Click to expand...

The Bible does not say the earth will be no more; before the GWT Judgment. Rev 21:1, is planly after the Judgment.
Anyway, it will be in the Spiritual realm, when those worthy will be changed from mortal to immortal, in the twinkling of an eye.

keras said:

The Bible does not say the earth will be no more; before the GWT Judgment. Rev 21:1, is planly after the Judgment.

Click to expand...

Yes the bible does say that the earth and its heaven will be no more before the Great White Throne Judgment in verse 11. Where is God's throne, keras ? If there is no earth, nor its heaven, where are you going to be keras ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21 is not until after the Great White Throne Judgement.

The New Jerusalem comes down to the new earth, from God out of heaven.

SabbathBlessings said:

We should devote ourselves to God everyday, but Jesus related false worship as keeping traditions of men over keeping the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat 15:3-14 in contrast to His faithful who keep God’s commandments until the very end of time Rev14:12 Jesus never told anyone a change of His commandments after He rose, His faithful followers that were first to see Him were still keeping the Sabbath Luke23:56 just as Jesus indicated Isa 56:6-7 Mat24:20 and we see in the life of His apostles decades after the Cross Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4 etc. The change of the day came from mans traditions over a commandment of God, written by God Himself. Exo31:18 it was even predicted it would be changed, not by God Dan7:25

Click to expand...

So your answer, then, is I can't worship God by meeting together on the Lord's Day. Because you would have men be created for the Sabbath, rather than the Sabbath made for man.

Ergo, you are proving my point.

That Christians must gather on Saturday, rather than Sunday, is not a commandment of God, but a tradition of men--which you raise above the word of God.

ViaCrucis said:

So your answer, then, is I can't worship God by meeting together on the Lord's Day. Because you would have men be created for the Sabbath, rather than the Sabbath made for man.

Ergo, you are proving my point.

That Christians must gather on Saturday, rather than Sunday, is not a commandment of God, but a tradition of men--which you raise above the word of God.

Click to expand...

The Lords Day according to the LORD is the seventh day. Exo20:10 Isa 58:13

You are also defining the Sabbath by your own terms and not God's. We are to live by God's.

Why did God make the Sabbath for mankind?

These are thus saith the LORD'S words that came directly out of God's mouth Jesus said to live by Mat4:4

The 4th commandment goes beyond just the Sabbath, its how God told us to keep all days.

Exo20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

According to God's own words the Sabbath is made to keep the day holy focusing on our Creator - ceasing from works and labors to do this because without quality time together no relationship can sustain.

God did this so He can bless us

Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

And join ourselves to the LORD and serve Him invited to everyone

6.“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

Jesus is LORD of this Sabbath and why He made it for mankind. Its a special invitation given to everyone, sadly many want God's blessings on their terms, not God's Isa 56:2 they want to serve Him on their terms and not His Isa 56:6 why they changed the day because they have rejected this from God and made another lords day that God did not. Dan7:25


We should worship and devote ourselves to God daily- but Jesus in His own words said keeping mans traditions over God's commandments make His Word void and our worship in vain - not my words His Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 replacing the fear of God Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev 14:6-12 with the fear of men Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14

If we would just live how Jesus told us to Mat4:4 and trust Him over what's popular with man.

Douggg said:

The new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21 is not until after the Great White Throne Judgement.

Click to expand...

It seems that the Judgment and the old earth disposed of, will happen at the same time. More or less simultaneously. Both after the Millennium.

It will be all of the earthly and mortal world finished and gone. Eternity is entirely Spiritual.

BobRyan said:

The reason for this thread is to avoid confusion on the term "rapture"

Many people will say that it did not exist 300 years ago , when in fact 1 Thess 4 came almost 2000 years ago but the term comes from the latin Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4... and the preMill post trib rapture form is the oldest Historic PreMill position.

But people generally know the term today for its PRETrib form so when they say "The Rapture is a recent teaching" they really mean "the PRETRIB Rapture" is recent.

All the postTrib rapture people feel somewhat "missed" in that over simplification of the broader topic.

Rapture is very old, PostTrib Rapture is very old... but preTrib rapture has some claim to being newer.

Click to expand...

True - and it is the question among the believers as to when what is termed rapture will take place which causes some division. Whether pre, mid, or post departure.

It is not common knowledge when the pre-rapture teachings began but most will say in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald _ theory made famous in the mid 20th century by evangelists such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and a few others.

keras said:

It seems that the Judgment and the old earth disposed of, will happen at the same time. More or less simultaneously. Both after the Millennium.

It will be all of the earthly and mortal world finished and gone. Eternity is entirely Spiritual.

Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter where it will take place exactly, but I would say even though we will not inherit the new heavens and new earth until the judgment is over, that doesn't mean they can't be created just before the judgment with the judgment taking place somewhere within the new heaven or on the new earth.

truthuprootsevil said:

True - and it is the question among the believers as to when what is termed rapture will take place which causes some division. Whether pre, mid, or post departure.

It is not common knowledge when the pre-rapture teachings began but most will say in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald _ theory made famous in the mid 20th century by evangelists such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and a few others.

Click to expand...

I agree, but I think in fairness to Billy Graham it was not something that he talked about a lot or put much emphasis on, from my understanding. Not like other famous pre-trib teachers like Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and Tim LaHaye.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Lords Day according to the LORD is the seventh day. Exo20:10 Isa 58:13

Click to expand...

The phrase "Lord's Day" doesn't exist in the Old Testament. It is a Christian invention, in response to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ on the first day of the week. The "Lord's Day" has always meant the first day of the week in Christian usage. You will never find the Sabbath called "The Lord's Day" in Scripture.

Neither Exodus 20:10 nor Isaiah 58:13 call the Sabbath "The Lord's Day".

What did you hope to accomplish by lying about what the Bible says? You know that we can read right? We're literally using a form of communication that requires reading and writing, and thus everyone here is literate. We can look up those passages for ourselves and see that you're lying.

ViaCrucis said:

The phrase "Lord's Day" doesn't exist in the Old Testament. It is a Christian invention, in response to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ on the first day of the week. The "Lord's Day" has always meant the first day of the week in Christian usage. You will never find the Sabbath called "The Lord's Day" in Scripture.

Neither Exodus 20:10 nor Isaiah 58:13 call the Sabbath "The Lord's Day".

What did you hope to accomplish by lying about what the Bible says? You know that we can read right? We're literally using a form of communication that requires reading and writing, and thus everyone here is literate. We can look up those passages for ourselves and see that you're lying.

Click to expand...

I quoted the passages verbatim on what God said plainly and if you think God is not being truthful about the day He called My holy day, the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13 meaning there is only one, and the days He said are for works and labors Exo20:9 thats something one will have to tell directly to Him - it would not be a conversation I would want to have come Judgment day.

The LORD is everlasting and didn’t start in the New Testament, why the OT like God’s prophet Isaiah still speaks of things that have yet to happen and things that are everlasting Psa 119:142 Psa 119:172 such as doing God’s righteousness Isa 56:1-2 because its the foundation of God’s throne Psa 89:14 in heaven Rev11:19 where His word is settled Psa 119:89 why we see the Sabbath in the NC is still a commandment of God Luke23:56. It’s sad so many miss out on God’s Word because they isolate it only to the NT and than create doctrine that's not even stated in the NT. The LORD asked us not to speak for Him and warned against it. The LORD’s day as Sunday doesn’t exist anywhere in God’s holy word. It came from outside why we are warned about it Isa8:20. It’s really a sad doctrine as if God is so weak He doesn’t know His own holy day that He blessed and sanctified and is part of His Testimony that He wrote Exo31:18 but man the creation, needed to correct and tell Him.

Jesus who is God said He is LORD of the Sabbath day, not the first day. Mark2:28 That’s being lorded by another Dan7:25. He also told us to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting Old Testament. Mat4:4 So what you’re teaching is the exact opposite of how Jesus told mankind to live.

This idea that the OT is not God’s Word used for doctrine and correction in righteousness 2Tim3:16 is sadly mistaken and God changed when He said He does not, Mal 3:6 Hebrews13:8

Jesus is the great I AM of the OT John8:58 and does not change, no wonder why He is LORD of the Sabbath day and kept the Sabbath holy Luke4:16 and is to be our example 1John2:6. Sadly the majority has feared man Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14 over fearing God. Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev14:6-12

I guess it will all sort itself out soon enough. For me, I am sticking with what’s He said, even if the majority are doing something different. The path Jesus said is narrow. Mat7:13-14

SabbathBlessings said:

I quoted the passages verbatim on what God said plainly and if you think God is not being truthful

Click to expand...

I don’t see any remark from @ViaCrucis that would suggest he believes God is being untruthful.

On analysis of the Scripture you provided, I disagree with your interpretation that the Old Testament referred to the Sabbath as the Lord’s Day, and agree with the interpretation provided by @ViaCrucis , and in disagreeing with your interpretation, I am absolutely not taking the view that God is being untruthful.

Also, in my criticism of Memorialist views of the Eucharist, even as Iv’e pointed out the problems with the Memorialist doctrine vis a vis the phrase “this do ye in remembrance of me” in 1 Corinthians ch. 11 having the context of anamnesis and not semantically contradicting Christ saying “this is my body” and “this is my blood” and its absence from the institution narratives in Matthew or Mark or regarding the Blood, in Luke, and 1 Corinthiians ch. 10 and John ch. 6, I have never once accused Memorialists of suggesting that Christ our True God was being untruthful, even if there exists a logical contradiction in the Memorialist hermeneutic.

It is possible for two Christians to disagree on the meaning of the text without either of them disagreeing with the text itself or believing that God lied.

The Liturgist said:

I don’t see any remark from @ViaCrucis that would suggest he believes God is being untruthful.

Click to expand...

Sure he did

Neither Exodus 20:10 nor Isaiah 58:13 call the Sabbath "The Lord's Day".

What did you hope to accomplish by lying about what the Bible says?

Click to expand...

Considering this is God's own written and spoken Testimony that Jesus said man should live by instead of what man feels that is not in the Bible.

Exo20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

There is zero Scripture that says Sunday is the Lords day in Scripture, God only named one day as the holy day of the LORD that God Himself said, if one chooses not to believe Him, that has nothing to do with me.. Considering God never even named any other day except the Sabbath, that He blessed and sanctified should tell those seeking God's will something. The name Sunday came from Pagan roots, not God.

Exalting a day God made for works and labors and making it a holy day over what God did make holy and use as a common day, has never worked out for one person in Scripture. If one is okay with this kind of risk when God says He does not change nor shows partiality that's ones free will. Whoever we obey is who we serve. Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day. Tearing down what He is LORD of and trying to replace it was He said He was not. I guess we shall see how that works out.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.