The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T07:53:41-0500

reddogs said:
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now as Jesus will bring His reward with Him at His coming, the judgment of the church or saints needs only to take place shortly prior to the Second Coming. Now if you look the Investigative Judgment comes and we the saints will be judged before the Second Coming and then after the wicked, so its everyone.

You draw an inference the text does not state. Yes, He will bring His reward. Various texts were already pointed out that Jesus judges in person where we appear, stand, bow, confess, kneel, receive reward, etc. and Paul included himself and those in the church in that.

But apart from that, Jesus already knows His own.

John 10:14-15

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (NKJV)

And if you prefer, James White can explain it to you:

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem. A Word to the Little Flock,1847, James White

OF course, Adventists usually note that it is for the onlooking, unfallen inteligences that the investigation is conducted, and acknowledge that God already knows all things.

But even there it is not internally consistent. Only "professed followers of God" are included per Ellen White.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. (The Great Controversy, 480)

But if the onlooking intelligences need investigation to know who passes the judgment, how would they innately know who IS a professed follower of God in the first place without investigation?

That is not explained. The larger point is that the onlooking universe can see things brought to light, and the purposes of the heart at His coming, which is what Scripture says, as @The Liturgist noted.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God

The reality is that this was all developed out over time as they tried to explain the disappointment.

You have the element of a pre-advent judgment, tied to Daniel 7 which came prior to 1844 through Millerites Josiah Litch and Appolos Hale.

Snow who promoted the 7 month movement leading to Oct. 22, 1844, tied the date to the Day of Atonement, though the thought then being that it would be the earth cleansed with fire.

The next day after the disappointment Hiram Edson, per his account, first had a vision that it was Jesus going into the Most Holy Place for the Day of Atonement.

Later this was connected with the earlier discussion of an investigative judgment. And at first there was a debate about whether the judgment was pre-advent, or during the 1k years, with them eventually adopting that distinct judgments happened during those times.

That is why you have James White arguing against the necessity of a pre-advent judgment in the Little Flock.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T07:58:07-0500

BobRyan said:
In a nutshell the judgment is in Dan 7 where starting in vs 9 it preAdvent element is revealed... and we see it in Rom 2:4-16

Romans 2:14-16

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (NKJV)

Romans 2 spells out a timing--the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians makes very plain when that is:

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God

tall73 · 2026-06-07T08:08:40-0500

BobRyan said:
In a nutshell the judgment is in Dan 7 where starting in vs 9 it preAdvent element is revealed... and we see it in Rom 2:4-16

Daniel 7 doesn't meet the criteria.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. (The Great Controversy, 480)

Daniel 7 involves judgment on beast powers, some of which were not even claiming to be professed followers of God:

Daniel 7:9-12

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,

And the Ancient of Days was seated;

His garment was white as snow,

And the hair of His head was like pure wool.

His throne was a fiery flame,

Its wheels a burning fire;

10 A fiery stream issued

And came forth from before Him.

A thousand thousands ministered to Him;

Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.

The court was seated,

And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. (NKJV)

Judgment is against the beasts, and for the saints who are being persecuted. The beast is slain.

The judgment includes the One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven,

Daniel 7:13-14

13 “I was watching in the night visions,

And behold, One like the Son of Man,

Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,

Which shall not pass away,

And His kingdom the one

Which shall not be destroyed. (NKJV)

Jesus interprets this for us:

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The saints inherit the kingdom--that does not happen in the Adventist IJ. But it does in Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:21-22

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (NKJV)

tall73 · 2026-06-07T08:12:19-0500

The Liturgist said:
as opposed to doing what He said He would do and judging everyone at the end of time in the Last Judgement.

Exactly:

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

reddogs · 2026-06-07T08:16:53-0500

tall73 said:
reddogs, it would have to be demonstrated to be "truth" or else there is no reason to come back to it. Emotional appeals are not Scriptural testing.

The truth was already demonstrated from Hebrews. Jesus entered once for all, past tense from the perspective of the author of Hebrews, into the holy places, as High Priest, by means of His own blood.

We will appear before the judgment seat of Christ--and bow, confess, give account, and receive our reward. That is not describing the Adventist IJ where you are not aware when your case comes up.

Also, you still haven't spelled out how you get to 1844.

Tall, you are trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the proverbial Titanic. I am a elder in the church and have to deal with many who weaken or fall away, and I try to encourage them and tell them that there is no other church with the fullness of truth that Adventist have been given. I know that you know that is true, all other paths pulls to the adversary. You know I care for you and wish you no harm, but I grieve as we have no time left as we all can clearly see it all coming to an end.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T08:24:03-0500

reddogs said:
Tall, you are trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the proverbial Titanic. I am a elder in the church and have to deal with many who weaken or fall away, and I try to encourage them and tell them that there is no other church with the fullness of truth that Adventist have been given. I know that you know that is true, all other paths pulls to the adversary.

Indeed, I do NOT know that is true. And you need to demonstrate that with Scripture, rather than appeals.

reddogs said:
You know I care for you and wish you no harm, but I grieve as we have no time left as we all can clearly see it all coming to an end.

I wish you no harm either. And examining Scripture will not harm you or me. So address the various points raised.

reddogs · 2026-06-07T08:34:11-0500

tall73 said:
Indeed, I do NOT know that is true. And you need to demonstrate that with Scripture, rather than appeals.

I wish you no harm either. And examining Scripture will not harm you or me. So address the various points raised.

I dont have time to argue over what scripture shows, the saints must be judged before the Second Coming so Christ can seperate the sheep and the goats, and here we are...

tall73 · 2026-06-07T08:49:27-0500

reddogs said:
I dont have time to argue over what scripture shows, the saints must be judged before the Second Coming so Christ can seperate the sheep and the goats, and here we are...

You really ought to LOOK at what Scripture shows. Jesus reveals hearts, answers objections, and points out evidence from His glorious throne.

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

Jesus knows His own, and knows all that is in man:

John 10:14-15

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (NKJV)

John 2:23-25

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. (ESV)

reddogs · 2026-06-07T08:55:41-0500

tall73 said:
You really ought to LOOK at what Scripture shows. Jesus reveals hearts, answers objections, and points out evidence from His glorious throne.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

Jesus knows His own, and knows all that is in man:

John 10:14-15
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (NKJV)

John 2:23-25
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. (ESV)

Rearrange the deck chairs my brother, but the ship is going down.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T08:57:59-0500

Maria Billingsley said:
After doing some of my own research, I came to understand that according to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844, and continues in heaven to this day. Most importantly, that Jesus Christ of Nazareth moved from the "Holy Place" to the "Most Holy Place" in 1844, which creates a two-phase theology of atonement . It would be nice to know where this is stated in scripture.

Yes, and they say a bit more:

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/140.1022#1054

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin-offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded.

Ellen White indicates that Jesus' blood transferred sin.

Jesus was certainly not defiled by human sin when He ascended to heaven.

Hebrews 7:26-28 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. (NKJV)

Of course, the heavenly things did require cleansing, as the Scriptures say. But they were not polluted by the blood of Christ. They were cleansed by the blood of Christ:

Hebrews 9:23-28 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (NKJV)

Hebrews 1:3-4 3 Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself make purification for sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The sin offering was most holy, and provided atonement, not pollution:

Leviticus 6:24-30

24 Also the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the LORD. It is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting. 27 Everyone who touches its flesh must be holy. And when its blood is sprinkled on any garment, you shall wash that on which it was sprinkled, in a holy place. 28 But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water. 29 All the males among the priests may eat it. It is most holy. 30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire. (NKJV)

The sin offering is killed, and its blood shed, but the sin offering is NOT defiled, or bearing sin. It is MOST HOLY. It is eaten in a holy place. Everyone who touches it must be holy. When its blood is sprinkled on a garment it is cleansed in a holy place. And the work of the sin offering is not to defile, but to make atonement in the holy place.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

This statement regarding the effect of the offering for a single sin is directly parallel to the effects of the sin offering of the Day of Atonement, on a larger scale:
Sin offering:

Leviticus 6:30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire. (NKJV)

Day of atonement sin offering:

Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

The effect was the same, making atonement in the holy place. The scale was different. One was a picture of a repentance, contrition, and atonement for a single act of sin. The other was a corporate picture of the power of Christ's sacrifice to cleans all who put their faith in Him.
The sin offering made atonement, and forgave, rather than transferring sin closer to God's presence:

Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,

Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.

Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.

Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Blood throughout the levitical rites is stated to cleanse:

Leviticus 17:11

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ (NKJV)

The blood represented the blood of Christ, and the cleansing it would bring. It did not defile, but cleanse. Hebrews reiterates this point as well:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

All of the sacrificial rites are a picture of Jesus who died for us, to reconcile us to God. We are justified by His blood. His blood does not contaminate.

1Pe 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear;

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your futile way of life handed down from your forefathers,

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb blameless and spotless.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having been justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (NKJV)

His blood cleanses. It does not defile.

Nor does Jesus need a protracted "daily" ministration (as Adventists refer to daily first compartment ministry, and yearly Day of Atonement ministry.)

Hebrews 7:26-27

27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (ESV)

tall73 · 2026-06-07T10:15:29-0500

Sin defiles by its presence:

Numbers 35:33-34

33 So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. 34 Therefore do not defile the land which you inhabit, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.’ ” (NKJV)

Blood shed in the land effects the whole land, including the dwelling place of the Lord. There was no need for transfer by sin offering to defile. The whole land was defiled by bloodshed. And, as the text notes, there was no sin offering for murder. The murderer was killed to set this offense right. So there is no transfer by sin offering in this case. But there is defilement of the land, and the Lord dwells in the midst of the land.

Leviticus 15:31

31 ‘Thus you shall separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness when they defile My tabernacle that is among them. (NKJV)

Failing to be cleansed at the appointed time was a sever offense because it was an affront to the sanctuary. The person was rejecting the provision for cleansing, and their impurity remained.

The children of Israel must have their uncleanness removed, or else they, by virtue of their uncleanness, will defile the tabernacle, that is among them. There is no blood of the sin offering referenced, because the defiling would happen by the presence of the unclean people themselves. Sin contaminates the land, the and everything around it, not just what it directly touches.

Num19:13 Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel. Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him.

Again we see that failure to be purified resulted in the defiling of the tabernacle, with no sin offering blood needed. His uncleanness was still on him. That uncleanness defiled.

We see this in Leviticus 16 regarding the Day of Atonement.

Leviticus 16:15-16

16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (NKJV)

The reason the sanctuary was defiled, in the description of the Day of Atonement service, is that it remains among them in the midst of the uncleanness of the people of Israel. Their sin and uncleanness makes everything around defiled.

There is no needed mechanism to transfer sins to the sanctuary. Sins defile by their presence. It infused the land, the camp, and the sanctuary in their midst. God lived in the middle of a sinful people. And it was only the sacrifices, which provided atonement by the shed blood, which represented the blood of Christ, that enabled them to approach a holy God.

So let's look at the overall picture. In the Adventist view of the sanctuary system, God instructs sinners to come to the sanctuary to transfer their sins to the sanctuary. The sanctuary, in this view, is a giant holding tank for sins. But this is surely all backwards. When we look at the Scriptures we see that the sanctuary was the place where a Holy God was to dwell among the Israelites. Uncleanness was to be kept from it, not invited in! And sins and impurities were to be atoned for and cleansed, not stored.

The sanctuary was a means for a holy God to live among an unholy people. Its services were put in place to remove sin and uncleanness from the people. So we constantly see warnings to keep uncleanness away, not to bring it into the sanctuary.

An example of this is the rule regarding lepers:

Num 5:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Num 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Num 5:3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

Num 5:4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

As these people were unclean, they were to be kept from the camp, that they not defile the sanctuary, in the midst of the camp. Uncleanness that could be removed was to be handled at the sanctuary. Uncleanness that could not be removed was to be kept away from God's presence. Uncleanness was to be kept outside the camp, not close to where God dwelt in the midst of the people.

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Lev 12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Uncleanness lasted for a set amount of time. During that time you could not approach the sanctuary or any holy thing. Then the person would go to the sanctuary to have it removed.

Lev 12:6 "And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,

Lev 12:7 and he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female.

Where God dwelled, in the sanctuary, was a holy place. Those who were unclean were not to approach, unless it was in accord with the prescription. And when people would come to the sanctuary, when the time of their uncleanness was over, provision was made through sacrifice not to store the sin, but to remove it. Atonement was made for the unclean person.

When the people persisted in wickedness, the Lord eventually judged them, because they defiled the Lord's temple by their wickedness.

Ezekiel 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her.

6 'But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.'

7 "Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because you have more turmoil than the nations which surround you and have not walked in My statutes, nor observed My ordinances, nor observed the ordinances of the nations which surround you,'

8 therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I, even I, am against you, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations.

9 'And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.

10 'Therefore, fathers will eat their sons among you, and sons will eat their fathers; for I will execute judgments on you and scatter all your remnant to every wind.

11 'So as I live,' declares the Lord GOD, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye will have no pity and I will not spare.

The sanctuary was the solution to the problem of sin contamination, not the vessel to hold sins. It removed sin through blood atonement. It was not the storage house for such contamination. And when the people abandoned the Lord, and defiled the temple continually, He drove them out.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T10:25:28-0500

reddogs said:
Rearrange the deck chairs my brother, but the ship is going down.

Testing by Scrupture is not rearranging deck chairs

But speaking of nautical illustrations, on the topic at hand:

Hebrews 6:19-20 (NKJV)
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

reddogs · 2026-06-07T10:45:16-0500

tall73 said:
Testing by Scrupture is not rearranging deck chairs

But speaking of nautical illustrations, on the topic at hand:

Hebrews 6:19-20 (NKJV)
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Tall, we are in the judgement time that has come upon the church, once the saints are done, Christ will come and take them to His heavenly kingdom. If you deny that, then clearly you teach another gospel..

The Liturgist · 2026-06-07T14:27:51-0500

reddogs said:
I dont have time to argue over what scripture shows, the saints must be judged before the Second Coming so Christ can seperate the sheep and the goats, and here we are...

Why does Christ our God who created time NEED TIME to judge people before HIs return?

Do Adventists deny that God is omniscient? Or do you believe that He exists in time and that time is not a creature? Or do you regard that Christ is God in an honorific sense but not actually Lord over time with the ability to manipulate it, but rather a creation of His Father operating under arbitrary constraints?

Because if we accept that (a) we don’t know when Christ will be coming with certainty, as Scripture says, (b) that God is eternal, that is to say, not bound by time, but rather, as per Genesis ch. 1 and John ch. 1, Christ our True God created all things, together with His unoriginate Father and the Holy Spirit, three persons, ever one God, and that (d) God is infintely merciful the idea that Christ is constrained by time in order to get an investigative judgement done before an arbitrary deadline does not fit logically.

Which is a problem since John specifically says that Christ is Reason incarnate, and since Christ is the Logos, that which He does must be Logical. And since God is Love, that which God does must be merciful.

Therefore zapping the majority of faithful Christians out of existence eternally because they did not follow the Sabbath commandment in the manner interpreted by SDAs, even if we worship on the Sabbath, a commandment nowhere mentioned in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, which is the authoritative and Scripturally-sound definition of the Christian faith as adopted by the 150 Greek Orthodox fathers in Constantinople in 381 AD as a refinement of the earlier Nicene Creed (which was specifically written to differentiate between Christianity and various related cults, especially Arianism, the doctrine which rejected the Trinity and the status of Christ as God Incarnate, which were also doctrines rejected by Miller, who was the first to propose the 1844 date as the time for Christ’s return, and when that did not happen, the resulting Great Disappointment was devastating for many people, and so now we have 1844 reinterpreted as the start of an Investigative Judgement which is not explicitly described in Scripture (the Adventist argument is one based on implication, and that implication is not obvious to most Christians; we simply don’t believe that Scripture says what you think it does), well, its just a non-starter.

Specifically where the SDA model of soteriology really runs into problems is in two areas: Sola Fide, in that Adventists like to claim to be the definitive Protestants but the defining characteristic of Lutheran, Calvinist, Methodist, Baptist and other Protestant sects is salvation by faith, with works not being salvific but rather merely evidence of a living faith, and the rejection of legalism, and separately in the case of the Orthodox and many Catholics who do worship every Saturday, another issue presents itself, since we keep the Sabbath but also keep the First Day in memory of the Resurrection of Christ and the descent of the Holy Spirit, which according to the Bible happend on the First Day, and we see the Apostles worshipping on the First Day, and no prohibition exists against it.

So the idea that God is going to zap us out of existence despite believing in Christ as per John 3:16, being Baptized in Christ as He commanded, partaking of His Eucharist and doing so on both the Sabbath and the Lord’s day, indeed every day throughout the year except in the case of the Orthodox Great and Holy Friday, and every day in the case of Catholics, and also Catholics you know do 1.4 million worship services every Sabbath and renamed the Latin word for the Seventh Day from Dies Saturnae to Sabato, meaning Sabbath, and the Orthodox did the same thing in every country where we represent a majority of the population, and never used it to refer to Sunday in our liturgical materials, which are official, unlike the unofficial Catholic publications Adventists like to quote (look at the Missale Romanum sometime - you’ll see the Seventh Day is referred to always as “Sabato” and Sunday as “Dominica”) - this idea is at odds with the beliefs of most Christians, and I would argue, with the plain meaning of Scripture.

Meanwhile where Scripture is explicit Adventists in several cases disagree with it. For example Scripture explicitly says that the bread and wine in Holy Communion are the Body and Blood of our Lord, and the Adventist refutation of this like all Memorialist refutations relies on “this do ye in remembrance of me” being interpreted as negating a Real Presence (whether Physical or Spiritual, the latter being the original Calvinist doctrine held to by a large number of Protestants, the former the ancient doctrine held to by Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Assyrians and many Anglicans and Moravians and other Protestants), but the problem with that is that aside from “remembrance” not meaning anything in Greek that negates the idea that the Bread and Wine are really in some sense the Body and Blood of our Lord, even if one rejects a physical interpretation or the specific Roman Catholic idea of trans-substantiation or the Lutheran “in with and under” definition or the Calvinist “purely spiritual” idea, remembrance only appears in 1 Corinthians 11, not in 1 Corinthians 10, not in John ch 6 (which Adventists argue does not refer to the Eucharist, which is not a credible reading because it specifically has our Lord talking about people eating and drinking His flesh which links it directly to what would be revealed to the Twelve at the Last Supper shortly thereafter, also St. Peter refers to Christians as partakers of the Divine Nature, which requires the real presence, since for us to partake of the Divine Nature, by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ, since in Him the divine and human nature are united without change, confusion, separation or division, well that solves that, but most damagingly, the first two instances of the Institution Narrative in the Gospel, in Matthew and Mark, do not feature the phrase “do this in remembrance of me.”

Thus relying on an interpretation of the Eucharist wherein our Lord contradicts Himself in a way that refutes a literal interpretation but in only one (or maybe one and a half, if you count Luke) of the five places where He is recorded speaking of eating His flesh and blood is not sustainable. And this is just one of many places where Adventist doctrine clashes with most obvious Scriptural texts, for example, regarding Annhilationism.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T14:27:58-0500

reddogs said:
Tall, we are in the judgement time that has come upon the church, once the saints are done, Christ will come and take them to His heavenly kingdom. If you deny that, then clearly you teach another gospel..

You should really start talking Scripture instead of making proclamations and appeals. The investigative judgment doctrine of Adventists turns many things on its head. From the fundamental beliefs statement:

24. Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross.

At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment, which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection.

It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.

This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.

(Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11- 28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

The work of the earthly high priest, in the sanctuary, on the Day of Atonement was not examining books. It was presenting atoning blood for the sins of the people.

Leviticus 16:15-17

15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. (NKJV)

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest.

Jesus fulfilled that presentation of His Sacrifice in the true sanctuary in the first century:

Hebrews 1:1-3

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself made purification for sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NKJV)

Hebrews 9:6-7

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance (NKJV)

Hebrews 9:11-12

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (NKJV)

Hebrews 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (NKJV)

Hebrews 10:11-13

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. (NKJV)

Jesus sacrificed Himself as the once for all sacrifice on the cross. He then ascended and having made purification for sins, sat at the right hand of God.

He entered into God's presence for us, as the high priest did yearly--but He did it once for all. And this was past tense for the writer of Hebrews. It was all done in the first century as @Maria Billingsley noted.

And already in the first century they could come boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace, because of what He had done.

Hebrews 4:14-16

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (NKJV)

Jesus was already on Heaven's true mercy seat in the first century, long before 1844. He reigns as King until His enemies are made His footstool And He intercedes for us on the basis of His completed blood ministration.

BobRyan · 2026-06-07T14:39:44-0500

tall73 said:
Judgment is against the beasts, and for the saints who are being persecuted. The beast is slain.

Dan 7:21-22 the judgment is passed "in favor of the saints" NASB
Dan 7:25-26 and against the wicked'

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 14:7 looks forward to that future time of judgment (future to the writing of Rev 14)

tall73 · 2026-06-07T14:40:43-0500

reddogs said:
Now comes the question that Tall referenced of when the Investigative Judgment began, and this is point of contention. Seventh-day Adventists believe, that the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844.

You still have not finished telling us from Scripture how you get to that date, which was the request that started the thread.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T14:44:36-0500

BobRyan said:
Dan 7:21-22 the judgment is passed "in favor of the saints" NASB
Dan 7:25-26 and against the wicked'

Exactly the point. The wicked are not included in the Adventist IJ:

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. (The Great Controversy, 480)

The Adventist IJ is an individual judgment on believers. The judgment in Daniel 7 involves beast powers, strips their power, etc. And Daniel 7 includes the righteous inheriting the kingdom, which they do not do in the Adventist IJ until later.

It doesn't match up.

Jesus interprets Daniel 7 for us:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed. (NKJV)

Jesus interprets this for us:

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The saints inherit the kingdom--that does not happen in the Adventist IJ. But it does in Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:21-22

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (NKJV)

tall73 · 2026-06-07T14:50:48-0500

The Liturgist said:
Why does Christ our God who created time NEED TIME to judge people before HIs return?

The official belief statement indicates it is for "heavenly intelligences" and to "vindicate" God.

24. Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross.

At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary.

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary.

It is a work of investigative judgment, which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection.

It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.

This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.

(Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11- 28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

But Scriptures already indicate that Jesus will bring to light that which is hidden and disclose the purposes of the heart--at His coming.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God

So yes, it is not needed.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T16:16:33-0500

At the center of the Seventh-day Adventist sanctuary teaching, is the reference to the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14.

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

In this text Adventists see a clear reference to the Day of Atonement cleansing of the sins of professed people of God. And it is from this prophecy that they derive the year 1844 as the beginning of this Day of Atonement ministry.

However, throughout the history of the Adventist church, many of those who preached this sanctuary teaching have come to question the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8:14. Or more to the point, they have found that, when looked at in context, Daniel 8:14 is not speaking about a Day of Atonement cleansing at all! When the context of the passage is examined, one realizes that the focus is not on a judgment of individuals in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type.

Here is the context leading up to Daniel 8:14:

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

This part of the vision is explained later by Gabriel. He indicates that the ram represents the Medes and Persians, and the he goat represents the Macedonian-Greecian empire. From history we recognize the great horn as Alexander the great, the Macedonian conqueror. After his fall his kingdom was split up. Here is the explanation:

Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

After Daniel 8:8 the theme turns from the Medes and Persians and Greecian empires to the activities of a different power--the little horn.

The identity of the little horn is debated among various scholars. For now it doesn't even matter who that little horn power is. For the sake of argument we can even say it represents Rome, in its pagan and papal phases, as a number of Adventists believe.

Here is what the chapter says about that little horn power:

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The little horn power is acting against God's sanctuary, causing the continual, or daily, ministration to be taken away. With that background in mind Daniel 8:13 asks an important question. And Daniel 8:14, our key text, is the answer to that question.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

In other words, how long until the activities of the little horn power against God's sanctuary are stopped? How long will it go on?

Now note that Daniel 14 is not speaking at all about the sins of God's people stored in the sanctuary. It is answering the question regarding the activities of the little horn power.

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The sanctuary will be cleansed from what? From the activities of the little horn power! The whole chapter is about the little horn, not about the sins of God's people.

Cleansing from outside defilement of a hostile power is not the same as the removal of the sins of the people through the atonement.

The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

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