The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

reddogs · Saturday at 7:27 AM

There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible speaks of an Investigative Judgment for the house of God, which is Christians.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

We also see another text on where the Bible speaks about a Judgment Day......

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

We see the angel proclaim that the 'everlasting gospel' message contains, the judgment, and we see what Christ says..

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And we find much more..

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now as Jesus will bring His reward with Him at His coming, the judgment of the church or saints needs only to take place shortly prior to the Second Coming. Now if you look the Investigative Judgment comes and we the saints will be judged before the Second Coming and then after the wicked, so its everyone. Lets take a look at scripture:

Daniel 7.9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (22) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Matthew 12.36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are...

Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God, those who are judged worthy by the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be taken to the heavenly kingdom at the Second Coming. The others will receive the judgment of condemnation, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire at the Second Death.

Maria Billingsley · Saturday at 7:58 AM

reddogs said:
There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible speaks of an Investigative Judgment for the house of God, which is Christians.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

We also see another text on where the Bible speaks about a Judgment Day......

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

We see the angel proclaim that the 'everlasting gospel' message contains, the judgment, and we see what Christ says..

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And we find much more..

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now as Jesus will bring His reward with Him at His coming, the judgment of the church or saints needs only to take place shortly prior to the Second Coming. Now if you look the Investigative Judgment comes and we the saints will be judged before the Second Coming and then after the wicked, so its everyone. Lets take a look at scripture:

Daniel 7.9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (22) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Matthew 12.36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are...

Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God, those who are judged worthy by the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be taken to the heavenly kingdom at the Second Coming. The others will receive the judgment of condemnation, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire at the Second Death.

After doing some of my own research, I came to understand that according to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844, and continues in heaven to this day. Most importantly, that Jesus Christ of Nazareth moved from the "Holy Place" to the "Most Holy Place" in 1844, which creates a two-phase theology of atonement . It would be nice to know where this is stated in scripture. I just need one verse. My understanding is He ascended in the first century and entered the " Most Holy Place " at that time and backed by stating "once and for all".

Hebrews 9:12 states, "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Even a literal Greek translation of "ta hagia" "the holy places" or "the holies," covers all possible places in heaven including the "Most Holy".

Just trying to understand!

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed!

tall73 · Saturday at 8:46 AM

reddogs said:
There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible speaks of an Investigative Judgment for the house of God, which is Christians.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

I am hoping you spell out how you get to 1844 so that folks can see it.

But for now I would like to go through a few of the texts you posted.

1 Peter 4:12-19

12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,

Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. (NKJV)

Peter encourages the believers going through trials that they should not be ashamed in suffering for Christ.

What does he say about the timing of the judgment here?

To quote your reading:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

1Pe 4:17 ὅτι ὁ καιρὸς τοῦ ἄρξασθαι τὸ κρῖμα ἀπὸ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ Θεοῦ· εἰ δὲ πρῶτον ἀφ᾿ ἡμῶν, τί τὸ τέλος τῶν ἀπειθούντων τῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ εὐαγγελίῳ;

Your text supplies "is come", because the time to begin judgment from the house of the Lord appears to call for it.

Also house of the Lord could refer back to the spiritual house already referenced by Peter, as the believers here,

1 Peter 2:4-5

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

And he seems to apply it this way, with it beginning with them, and then going to those who have not believed the gospel.

It could also have reference to Ezekiel 9, judgment beginning from the temple

Ezekiel 9:3-6

3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”

5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple. (NKJV)

Can you please relate how you see the context of Peter's statement relating to 1844 and the pre-advent judgment? The timing, if any, in Peter's statement does not point to 1844.

tall73 · Saturday at 9:04 AM

reddogs said:
Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:10-13

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 (NKJV)

This is not speaking of the Adventist concept of the investigative judgment. Because in the Adventist concept, you won't know your case has even come up, you are not present, you don't take actions.

But here

We will stand before the judgment seat
we kneel,
bow
confess
give an account

Paul includes himself,and addresses believers, so this is a judgment that includes believrs. But they are not absent, as in the Adventist IJ, and they are not unaware it is happening.

I certainly believe Romans 14 will happen, but it is not the Adventist IJ.

reddogs said:
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are...

2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (NKJV)

This also is not the Adventist IJ.

We

appear before the judgment seat of Christ
we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

That again is not the Adventist IJ, where we do not actually appear, or receive our reward.

reddogs said:
The Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God,

Right, which is why it doesn't match up with the Adventist IJ description of a proceeding where you are not aware or present.

So let's look at some other texts that do describe appearing, giving account, receiving, etc.

Matthew 25 speaks of judgment before the throne when Jesus comes:

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ. It is at His coming. All things are revealed, there is investigation, but it happens before the Lord.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This does not refer to the Adventist IJ. In the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White, you won't be objecting, because you won't know when your case comes up.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

The Lord will bring to light the things now hidden and disclose the purposes of the heart when He comes. Then--when He comes, each one will receive his commendation from God. That is when we receive the reward, which the passage in 2 Corinthians references.

The parable of the talents is another example of investigation, appearing, receiving reward, and it happens after Jesus comes.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

The Lord returns after a long time, and settles accounts. This is happening on earth, after the second coming.

Matthew 25:20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful. This judgment happens after the second coming. And they are present before Him and He asks for an account.

tall73 · Saturday at 9:18 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
After doing some of my own research, I came to understand that according to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844, and continues in heaven to this day. Most importantly, that Jesus Christ of Nazareth moved from the "Holy Place" to the "Most Holy Place" in 1844, which creates a two-phase theology of atonement . It would be nice to know where this is stated in scripture. I just need one verse. My understanding is He ascended in the first century and entered the " Most Holy Place " at that time and backed by stating "once and for all".

Hebrews 9:12 states, "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Even a literal Greek translation of "ta hagia" "the holy places" or "the holies," covers all possible places in heaven including the "Most Holy".

Just trying to understand!

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed!

Yes, and He entered as "High Priest", "by means of blood".

Hebrews 9:11-12

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (ESV)

Jesus entered

As High Priest
By means of His own blood, as contrasted with the blood of bulls and goats
Securing eternal redemption.

Blood was not necessary to go into the first compartment. The author of Hebrews had just spelled this out:

Hebrews 9:6-7

6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. (ESV)

Only the high priest would go into the second, and not without taking blood.

Jesus is the High Priest in the true tabernacle, taking not the blood of bulls and goats, but His own blood, and the result is securing eternal redemption.

Maria Billingsley · Saturday at 9:53 AM

tall73 said:
Yes, and He entered as "High Priest", "by means of blood".

Hebrews 9:11-12
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (ESV)

Jesus entered

As High Priest

By means of His own blood, as contrasted with the blood of bulls and goats

Securing eternal redemption.

Blood was not necessary to go into the first compartment. The author of Hebrews had just spelled this out:

Hebrews 9:6-7
6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. (ESV)

Only the high priest would go into the second, and not without taking blood.

Jesus is the High Priest in the true tabernacle, taking not the blood of bulls and goats, but His own blood, and the result is securing eternal redemption.

For clarity, a one time act in the 1st century.

tall73 · Saturday at 10:05 AM

Yes, He not only died once, but He entered once-for-all, in the past tense from the view of the author of Hebrews.

Hebrews 9:11-12

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (ESV)

tall73 · Saturday at 10:49 AM

reddogs said:
There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible speaks of an Investigative Judgment for the house of God, which is Christians.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

We also see another text on where the Bible speaks about a Judgment Day......

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

We see the angel proclaim that the 'everlasting gospel' message contains, the judgment, and we see what Christ says..

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And we find much more..

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now as Jesus will bring His reward with Him at His coming, the judgment of the church or saints needs only to take place shortly prior to the Second Coming. Now if you look the Investigative Judgment comes and we the saints will be judged before the Second Coming and then after the wicked, so its everyone. Lets take a look at scripture:

Daniel 7.9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (22) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Matthew 12.36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are...

Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God, those who are judged worthy by the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be taken to the heavenly kingdom at the Second Coming. The others will receive the judgment of condemnation, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire at the Second Death.

reddogs, the request in the other thread is that Adventists spell out how you get to 1844, without posting a video, just typing it here for folks to examine, from Scripture.

Can you please do so?

reddogs · Saturday at 2:04 PM

We see the judgement scene given in Daniel...
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now the judgement begins in the house of God as we saw in 1 Peter..

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

But there will also be judgement on "them that obey not the gospel of God", which are not from the house of God. We see it in Revelation 20 after the 1000 years when the books are opened and all the universe can see that God is just, and God is vindicated in His justice..

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And we see that either our sins be covered by the blood of the lamb, or our names will be blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life.
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

We see what Peter says.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

We see where David acknowledged his sin and asked God to forgive him and to blot out his sins.
Psalm 51:4
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

And not only blot out his sin, but to cleanse and create a new heart.
Psalm 51:9-10
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

So there are records which show what every person has done, and the names of the saved are put in the book of life, and Christ gives this promise..
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

reddogs · Saturday at 2:05 PM

So we see that God is seeing the transgression and sins of His people and it comes up against what happens, we must face the judgement seat of Christs..
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So everyone has a case pending in judgment, the saints and the wicked, whether living or dead.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And what is going to be brought up at the judgement..
Jeremiah 2:22
22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord God.

Malachi 3:16
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

So what will be the standard used..
James 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

And what is the level to be reached..
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So clearly, even one transgression on one point is as the same as being guilty of all, as the Law is based on the character of God, it is the Law of Love, for God and for your fellowman, and to break or transgress it leaves you with the wages of sin pending, so the church clearly must face Christ and His judgement before the Second Coming to decide this, and see if we are covered by the blood of the lamb.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

reddogs · Saturday at 2:06 PM

o how do the saints receive the gift and be cleansed by the blood of the lamb and be perfect as required..
Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We see that we need to confess our sins, recognize what is pending if we dont give them up and place them with Christ for a pardon, as at the Second Coming He comes with our reward.
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

God is currently reviewing the lives of every person who has ever lived to determine their ultimate fate, to see who are the sheep versus the goats when Christ returns. So we see that the Investigative Judgment, what must happen before the saints receive their reward, is in the Bible. We see that God will judge every person who has ever lived to determine who will be saved and who will be lost, the church first before the Second Coming and then those with sin.

reddogs · Saturday at 2:08 PM

Now comes the question that Tall referenced of when the Investigative Judgment began, and this is point of contention. Seventh-day Adventists believe, that the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844. This date is significant because it was the day that William Miller, a Baptist preacher, predicted that Christ would return to earth and many were disappointed when it didnt happen. We see a history of what happened..

"The Millerites spent the great day watching for the Lord, but their hopes were crushed.

The Great Disappointment shattered the Millerite movement. Many concluded that they had been entirely deceived, but a few clung to Miller’s interpretation of the time prophecies from the book of Daniel. Because Christ had obviously not returned in a literal sense, they began exploring additional explanations. Had the prophecy been fulfilled spiritually rather than literally?

On the morning after the disappointment, a Millterite by the name of Hiram Edson saw a vision of Jesus ministering in the heavenly sanctuary, and he concluded that Daniel 8:14 predicted the movement of Christ from the first to the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary. As Edson and others studied the Old Testament sacrificial system, they determined that October 22, 1844, was the beginning of the anti-typical Day of Atonement—that Christ was ministering in the heavenly sanctuary in a manner similar to the priests on the Day of Atonement. For the small group who insisted on the validity of Miller’s interpretations, the yearly Days of Atonement were symbolic events (or types) of the reality (anti-type). Instead of considering Christ’s death on the cross as the anti-type (reality) prefigured by the Day of Atonement, they shifted their focus from the cross to the heavenly sanctuary.

In the winter of 1844, seventeen-year-old Ellen Harmon, who would later become Ellen White, began having visions that gradually confirmed Edson’s spiritual interpretation of the Great Disappointment. She strongly supported Miller’s prophetic calculations, making William Miller the father of Seventh-day Adventist theology in the sense that all SDA theology stems from the premise that the cleansing of the sanctuary began on October 22, 1844. As Ellen White stated, “The correct understanding of the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is the foundation of our faith” (Evangelism, 221).

Hiram Edson and certain other members of the Adventist movement were guided into the belief that the event predicted by the Bible in Daniel, was not the return of Christ, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. Adventists came to believe that the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary involves a work of judgment, as the Bible clearly shows. So they studied more deeply and came to the understanding of the Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgment began to teach that a judgment had begun in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy Place. So from this understanding came the belief that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God, and as we can see it is scriptural.

reddogs · Saturday at 2:11 PM

So we look at the history of how William Miller came to this point. He was an American clergyman who came out of the movement of the Great Awakening and directly out of the Second Great Awakening and was studying the prophecies found in scripture and one of the ones they were looking at was in Daniel 8:
Daniel 8:14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So William Miller and others studied it deeply and preached what they were finding, and the evidence was brought out with great clearness that the 2300 days would end in 1844. William Miller believed that the sanctuary to be cleansed is our earth. He found no testimony in the Bible that the earth is the sanctuary, but he did find that the earth is to be purified, by fire, and so he inferred that this was the sanctuary which Daniel 8 said should be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days. He therefore concluded that this period was given to mark the time of Christ's coming and began to preach this and it spread with what you can imagine, great speed.

Now the eighth chapter of Daniel is a prophecy that gives the prophetic history of the world from the rise of the Persian Empire till the final destruction of all earthly kingdoms by the God of Heaven. The succession of earthly empires was presented to the prophet under the symbols of a ram, a goat, and a little horn that became exceeding great. And when these had been shown to him, he was told by the angel Gabriel that the ram represented the kingdom of Media and Persia; and that the goat was the kingdom of Greece; and the horn which became exceeding great, though not called by name, was identified by several decisive facts, among which are these: That it should be the great destroyer of the people of God, and that it should put to death the Prince of princes. These facts show that the Roman power is intended.

In connection with these symbols which represent the great empires that have since arisen, the prophet learned the duration of his vision. He heard, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And Daniel was told, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Now, it is plain that the period of "twenty-three hundred days" cannot be understood to mean so many literal days; for this would not make quite seven years, and would cover only a very small part of the duration of one of the three great empires of this vision. But we we need to remember that in this vision the great empires of the world are represented by symbols, and thus are given on a scale which brings them distinctly before the eye of the observer. It is necessary that the time should be given on a scale that corresponds with this in order not to involve an absurdity. For the Persian, Grecian, and Roman Empires have in all continued between 2000 and 3000 years. Now when these empires were represented by beasts, if the time that the empires were to continue was given without a corresponding abatement, then we should have these beasts living a thousand years apiece! This would be absurd. But it would not be absurd to represent them as living and acting that number of days.

The days must therefore represent longer periods of time. If we compare spiritual things with spiritual, we shall find the key to the interpretation of these days. If we can find the rule which governed one of them, we shall find that same rule governing all the rest in like circumstances. Now God gave this rule to Ezekiel in the interpretation of the symbols of his own vision:

Ezekiel 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Here the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year. So the rule or principle is that in Bible prophecy, you must substitute a period of a year in place of a day. This is the day=year principle. This equation is clearly established in scripture:

Numbers 14:34
King James Version (KJV)
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.

reddogs · Saturday at 2:13 PM

Here is a explanation which is very straightforward and gives it simply..

"Last week we looked at the prophecies in Daniel 8, and especially at verse 14—“For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

As we know, the calculation of the time indicated in this verse leads to the year 1844—a year when many honest people expected Jesus to come. And while they were correct in the time calculation, they were wrong in the expected event. Assuming, as many Christians did, that the term “sanctuary” referred to the Earth, their conclusion was that Jesus would come and cleanse the Earth in 1844.

However, through much Bible study and prayer these early Adventists learned that the “sanctuary” referred to in Daniel 8:14 is the Heavenly Sanctuary, where Christ is ministering today. They saw in Hebrews 8:1 and 2 that “We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.”

The earthly sanctuary, built by human hands but following divine instructions, was a type of the Heavenly Sanctuary. It served as an object lesson, illustrating the plan of salvation. That plan included many aspects, including a sacrifice (representing Jesus) and the washing away of sins. Further, it included a special time, known as the “Day of Atonement,” when the High Priest entered the Most Holy Place and the sanctuary would be “cleansed” by the symbolic removal of sin.

This important ceremony represents what began on October 22, 1844, when Christ entered the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary. We are given a glimpse into this Most Holy Place in Revelation 11:19, where we read, “Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.”

Today, Christ, our High Priest, is in the Most Holy Place, where the Investigative Judgment is taking place.

Did you know that the Bible mentions judgment more than 1,000 times? Judgment is a concept seen throughout Scripture, but the Investigative Judgment is special. As stated in our Fundamental Belief #24, the Investigative Judgment “reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.”

Now, the idea of judgment can seem unsettling to some. After all, we are all sinners. And while that is true, praise God we have a Savior who is our Advocate and Judge! We read in John 5:22—“For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son.” Furthermore, we know that when we surrender our lives to Christ, we are covered in His beautiful robe of righteousness, and through His Holy Spirit, we are given His power to overcome. In Revelation 3:5 Jesus assures us that “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”

The work of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary is vitally important. In the book, The Great Controversy, page 489, we read, “The intercession of Christ in man’s behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to complete in heaven. . . . Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: ‘My grace is sufficient for thee.’ . . . Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.”...

tall73 · Saturday at 5:30 PM

reddogs said:
Now comes the question that Tall referenced of when the Investigative Judgment began, and this is point of contention.

I am sure there are several points of contention. But you have explained some aspects but still haven't shown how you get to 1844.

Then we can start looking at more of the texts.

reddogs · 2026-06-07T05:47:56-0500

tall73 said:
I am sure there are several points of contention. But you have explained some aspects but still haven't shown how you get to 1844.

Then we can start looking at more of the texts.

Tall, there is still time, like the thief on the cross you can come back to the truth and instead of fighting against it like the Jewish leaders, come like Nicodemus find what you know is truth that comes from Christ. The time is coming to a close, but God forgives and accepts even at the ultimate moment of the close of grace.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T07:14:52-0500

reddogs said:
Tall, there is still time, like the thief on the cross you can come back to the truth and instead of fighting against it like the Jewish leaders, come like Nicodemus find what you know is truth that comes from Christ. The time is coming to a close, but God forgives and accepts even at the ultimate moment of the close of grace.

reddogs, it would have to be demonstrated to be "truth" or else there is no reason to come back to it. Emotional appeals are not Scriptural testing.

The truth was already demonstrated from Hebrews. Jesus entered once for all, past tense from the perspective of the author of Hebrews, into the holy places, as High Priest, by means of His own blood.

We will appear before the judgment seat of Christ--and bow, confess, give account, and receive our reward. That is not describing the Adventist IJ where you are not aware when your case comes up.

Also, you still haven't spelled out how you get to 1844.

The Liturgist · 2026-06-07T07:19:55-0500

reddogs said:
There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death.

I don’t see any such judgement indicated from the Scripture quoted. I see nothing of the kind. More importantly, I see no documentation of any such belief or anything resembling it pre-dating the 19th century; we don’t see it in the Early Church, we don’t see it among the Protestant Reformers, rather it appears only after The Great Disappointment in 1844, which is noteworthy since that’s the date that this judgement began, which is an odd date to begin an investigation considering that in 1844 the majority of people who would live to the age of 30 (the minimum age for a presbyter in the Early Church) hadn’t even been born until after a hundred years later.

Also why is Christ our True God, who is eternal, engaging in temporally-constrained projects in Heaven? WIthout denying the principle of Divine Inscrutability, it strains credulity to think that He who created Time (John 1:1-18) would commence such an act of pre-procuratorial investigation and conduct it only now as opposed to doing what He said He would do and judging everyone at the end of time in the Last Judgement.

tall73 · 2026-06-07T07:22:16-0500

reddogs said:
Now comes the question that Tall referenced of when the Investigative Judgment began, and this is point of contention. Seventh-day Adventists believe, that the investigative judgment began on October 22, 1844. This date is significant because it was the day that William Miller, a Baptist preacher, predicted that Christ would return to earth and many were disappointed when it didnt happen. We see a history of what happened..

Since the main purpose of this thread being requested was so that we may look at the Bible texts, I won't respond to this too much here. I understand why you would spell out the history element.

There is a thread that looks at Miller's message, as well as Ellen White's endorsement of it after it failed, here for those interested.

BobRyan · 2026-06-07T07:53:20-0500

reddogs said:
There is a Investigative Judgment, or Pre-Advent Judgment, (distinct from the Final Judgment of the Wicked of the Second Death), which scripture shows begins before the Second Coming as the saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to heaven at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible speaks of an Investigative Judgment for the house of God, which is Christians.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

We also see another text on where the Bible speaks about a Judgment Day......

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

We see the angel proclaim that the 'everlasting gospel' message contains, the judgment, and we see what Christ says..

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And we find much more..

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Now as Jesus will bring His reward with Him at His coming, the judgment of the church or saints needs only to take place shortly prior to the Second Coming. Now if you look the Investigative Judgment comes and we the saints will be judged before the Second Coming and then after the wicked, so its everyone. Lets take a look at scripture:

Daniel 7.9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (22) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Matthew 12.36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are...

Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God, those who are judged worthy by the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be taken to the heavenly kingdom at the Second Coming. The others will receive the judgment of condemnation, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire at the Second Death.

In a nutshell the judgment is in Dan 7 where starting in vs 9 the (1) preAdvent (2)judgment elements are revealed... and we see more detail that same preAdvent judgmentit in Rom 2:4-16

The text gives us a preAdvent judgment based on the content of the books as we see in Dan 7: vs 9 and 10 as well as 21 and 22.

We don't need to go beyond step one until step one is established.

The Liturgist said:
I don’t see any such judgement indicated from the Scripture quoted. I see nothing of the kind.

This is why rushing past those first two basic points is not needed. We need the basics discussed instead of skimming past them.
Dan 7:

9 “I kept looking

Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Next we see that the judgment completes, and then persecution ends, and the kingdom of Christ overtakes all as Dan 2 also shows for the end point.

Dan 7:
25 He (the persecuting entity in Dan 7) will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting

=====================
As protestants using the Historcist method have noted for centuries, Daniel 7 is describing
1. a judgment future to Daniel's day and in fact one that comes after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire
2. a Judgment that completes before the coming of Christ as we see in vs 25-27

And we note that in the chapter we see the judgment taking place with nonGod "myriads and myriads" observing and proceeding based on the content "of books opened". The entire time the judgment is going on the saints are being persecuted

Rom 2:4-16 contrasts the cases of those who fail that judgment review vs those that pass that judgment review and it also states that the judgment is still future to the time of Rom 2.

The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

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