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Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

Jan001

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Now there is an interesting distinction you make... What in your mind is the difference between a Christian and a believer ?

A Christian is a person who believed in God, repented of his sins, and was baptized as Jesus Christ commanded in Matthew 28:18-20. He became Christ's disciple when he was baptized. He cannot undo his baptism into Jesus Christ's new covenant, but he can undo his discipleship by his unbelief. John 6:66

He can turn away from God at any time by committing a grievous sin. A grievous sin can be either a sin of omission or commission.

Grievous sins of omission:


Matthew 6:14-15
1 Timothy 5:8

Grievous sins of commission:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21


To "believe" in God requires our obedience to his commandments.
"Unbelief" is when we disobey God's commandments.
Hebrews 3:18-19
 
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Carl Emerson

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A Christian is a person who believed in God, repented of his sins, and was baptized as Jesus Christ commanded in Matthew 28:18-20. He became Christ's disciple when he was baptized. He cannot undo his baptism into Jesus Christ's new covenant, but he can undo his discipleship by his unbelief. John 6:66

He can turn away from God at any time by committing a grievous sin. A grievous sin can be either a sin of omission or commission.

Grievous sins of omission:


Matthew 6:14-15
1 Timothy 5:8

Grievous sins of commission:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21


To "believe" in God requires our obedience to his commandments.
"Unbelief" is when we disobey God's commandments.
Hebrews 3:18-19

And how do you define believer ?
 
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Lost Witness

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Maybe this offering will help the cause and bring peace of mind about the endless theological debates, including this one...


Just a bit of Satire to lighten up the space.
We’re given according to our faith and as the body is made up of many parts..
It only makes sense that those parts would subscribe to certain denominations according to their individual functions within the body???
That’s how I view the applications of different denominations ~
 
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Jan001

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And how do you define believer ?

A believer is a person who knows and loves God and obeys his commandments, and he helps relieve his neighbors' burdens while he is on earth so that he will be chosen to enter eternal life with God after the resurrection of the dead.
 
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David Lamb

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A believer is a person who knows, loves, and obeys God's commandments, and he helps relieve his neighbors' burdens while he is on earth so that he will be chosen to enter eternal life with God after the resurrection of the dead.
I think you have it the wrong way round. The Bible doesn't tell us to know, love and obey God's commandments and to help relieve our neighbour's burdens so that we will be chosen to enter eternal life. Rather, it says that those are things we do as a result of having eternal life:

(Eph 2:1) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
(Eph 2:2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
(Eph 2:3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
(Eph 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Anyway, the Bible says that the choosing took place before the foundation of the world, so long before we were even born, let alone able to know, love and obey the commandments, etc.:

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
(Eph 1:4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(Eph 1:5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(Eph 1:6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
 
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Carl Emerson

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We’re given according to our faith and as the body is made up of many parts..
It only makes sense that those parts would subscribe to certain denominations according to their individual functions within the body???
That’s how I view the applications of different denominations ~

Yes there is something in this - each one preserves essential truths often better than than others.
 
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Christ's Bride

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And how do you define believer ?
What Is a "believer" ? We are told Satan and all his millions are "believers"! what good has that belief done for Satan -=-ZERO!

The Fallen angels and Satan know God not only exist but they can do nothing He will not allow. They know who is in control.

To my mind simply being a "believer" is not where one should be.

There is a related word that is far and above more important; what is that word?? believe"s", one who believes GOD

knowing God exist is one thing, "Believing" what we are told by our Maker is far more important --- those that "believe" God, will take action.


When studying our Makers Word a believer will take action and DO!

One who simply 'believes' can utter into the wind, "I believe", and then go on as he was.

And that is the plight of "The MANY" and why Christ tells them "I never knew you"


the MANY are not DOERS of the WORD.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What Is a "believer" ? We are told Satan and all his millions are "believers"! what good has that belief done for Satan -=-ZERO!

The Fallen angels and Satan know God not only exist but they can do nothing He will not allow. They know who is in control.

To my mind simply being a "believer" is not where one should be.

There is a related word that is far and above more important; what is that word?? believe"s", one who believes GOD

knowing God exist is one thing, "Believing" what we are told by our Maker is far more important --- those that "believe" God, will take action.


When studying our Makers Word a believer will take action and DO!

One who simply 'believes' can utter into the wind, "I believe", and then go on as he was.

And that is the plight of "The MANY" and why Christ tells them "I never knew you"


the MANY are not DOERS of the WORD.
We could use the word Christian but maybe it would be better to refer to 'followers of Christ' ?
 
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Christ's Bride

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We could use the word Christian but maybe it would be better to refer to 'followers of Christ' ?

Carl,

there are very few that Actually "Follow Christ" on that narrow path that lead to eternal life.
When Christ makes the statement; "many are called but few are chosen" it just rolls over the heads of the many.

Case in point are the mega churches with tens of thousands and the one mother church
 
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Jan001

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(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
(Eph 1:4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(Eph 1:5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(Eph 1:6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world" because he knew which people would be faithful to him at the time of their death.

Paul doesn't know which Ephesian Christians will be faithful to God until they die, but God does. He predestined only the faithful-until-death Ephesian Christians to eternal life.


Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


As you can see, the Smyrna Christians were told to remain faithful to God despite all their afflictions until their death, and then God would grant them eternal life as their reward.

During the first century AD, many Christians denounced their Christian faith so they would not continue to be persecuted and killed by the Jews and, later, by the Romans who killed Peter and Paul.
 
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Christ's Bride

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"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world" because he knew which people would be faithful to him at the time of their death.

Paul doesn't know which Ephesian Christians will be faithful to God until they die, but God does. He predestined only the faithful-until-death Ephesian Christians to eternal life.


Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


As you can see, the Smyrna Christians were told to remain faithful to God despite all their afflictions until their death, and then God would grant them eternal life as their reward.

During the first century AD, many Christians denounced their Christian faith so they would not continue to be persecuted and killed by the Jews and, later, by the Romans who killed Peter and Paul.

Every Doctrine, every belief must match the WORD of God.

31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"because
he knew which people would be faithful to him at the time of their death."

If this statement was true --- then you have earned eternal life -- if you can do anything -- it then is by your will, your power --- remember what Christ said " I can do of my own self -- nothing".
every good thing a "follower's" does,, is by the Father.

Why did Christ sweat blood before He was murdered and who Gave Him the Power to finish the job.
 
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Jan001

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Many Christians lead "double lives." On Sundays, they publicly praise and adore God with their words and their music, but in private, they are committing adultery, fornication, calumny, or other grievous sins. These Christians are on the "wide road" to hell.

"He that doeth the "will" of my Father" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. God grants to every person the graces he needs to do God's will.

What is the "will" of Jesus' Father in heaven? His will is that we do the righteous works that he "prepared in advance" for us to do.


Ephesians 2:10
For we are his work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance that we should do them.

The new covenant royal law of Christ:

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law as set forth in this scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. Matthew 25:23

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.


Matthew 25:31-46
 
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fhansen

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I think that confusion comes when we fail to separate two different issues. First is salvation which is given as a gift and is God's work alone determined before you are born. Second personal righteousness brings eternal reward and is judged by Him. The irony is that the latter is about walking in the Spirit and yielding to His intent within. So this is not our Work but His through us.
Actually, the confusion came when it was conceived that a person could be made just, and therefore salvageable, without actually being just as a result. Historically, Christianity had never viewed salvation as a one-time permanent irreversible event, or that one could know with absolute 100% certainty that they were among the number of the saved-and especially if the person was enmeshed in grave sin, producing no good fruit. Passages that speak of salvation to a general audience of followers were never seen as necessarily applying to all who heard and then claimed them as applying to themselves but were generally viewed as exhortations, encouragements, instructions, warnings, etc, sometimes using hyperbole.

Again, salvation was/is viewed as union with God, an ongoing relationship, a union which is to begin and blossom here in this life but will only be fully completed and consummated in the next life when we meet Him “face to face”. Meanwhile, “walking in the Spirit and yielding to His intent within” is necessary in order for us to live according to the bible, and not just for some prizes or rewards in heaven. Jesus will be judging us for how we lived our lives with Matt 25:31-46 forcefully driving home the fact that what we did in this life will be a major determining factor, along with 2 Tim 4:1, Acts 10;42, and 2 Cor 5:10. Either way, salvation is to be worked out, together with He who works in us (Phil 2:12); our calling and election are to be made sure (2 Pet 1:10).

And, yes, it’s been understood for centuries that this is all grace, that God, Himself, empowers our right actions and the love that motivates them. When He crowns man He’s really only crowning His own work. The question is in whether or not that grace can be resisted, just as it, just as He, was initially resisted in Eden. (And, as a sidenote, in His world the dynamics of resistance and struggle can result in overcoming and growth-that’s the world we live in, since Eden, with our choices involved in that struggle, in that process.)

Again, God is still creating, seeking to produce even greater beings than He began with in Eden and not doing all this so just He can end up stocking heaven with a portion of His creation and stocking hell with the rest. But do we even want to be and to grow in His likeness and image? We need His grace in order to elicit a “yes”, but yet He does not override our ability to say “no”, by His wise discretion and for His highest purposes for us.

The difference is in whether we as believers can refuse to yield, can be drawn away from Him and to worldly desires, can turn out to be poor soil in the end, can fail to love as He intends and draws and enables us to. So, rather than putting the cart ahead of the horse we let Him be the final judge.

Having faith is inseparable from producing good fruit, or it’s a dead faith. If we find ourselves producing that fruit we can have a strong assurance that He’s near to us, and that we’ve remained near to Him. If we aren’t doing so, then we’ve strayed regardless of any profession of faith and trust. And we may or may not care enough to repent and return.
 
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fhansen

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God created man for Himself, His own Glory Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Yes, but He also does it for us. That was God, Himself, on the cross demonstrating a love so wide and vast and deep for us that we can only barely begin to comprehend it. If we understand God and something of the nature of that love, the love that He is, then we know that such love seeks the good of others, it wants to be shared so that others, too, might experience the goodness and ineffable happiness that's intrinsic to it. That love is His greatest glory.
 
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Brightfame52

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Yes, but He also does it for us.
It said He made for Himself !!

Prove 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You added the also for us !

You addicted to the Exaltation of man over God
 
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fhansen

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It said He made for Himself !!

Prove 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You added the also for us !

You addicted to the Exaltation of man over God
Nope, I'm just thrilled about God's love for man, that He'd even be willing to lay down His life in human flesh, suffering an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death at the hands of His own sinful creation if that's what it took to prove a love beyond our immediate comprehension, to show us a God that we didn't anticipate, a God who's all about man even though He could squash us like a bug.

Again, this involves a better understanding of who God is, directly related to His purposes for man. This is why Jesus came, to communicate that God, the true God, to the world. It’s ok that God wants the very best for you, which He knows far better than we do. That’s really the very greatest God that could exist. And that’s why ‘no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind conceived that which God has in store for those who love Him’.

And if, in moments of insight and honesty with ourselves, we find that we’re not loving Him as we should, along with love of neighbor without which love of God would be a fallacy, we can seek that love, we can pray for that kind of love because there’s really no end to how strong that love can become. And He’ll answer that prayer.
 
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Brightfame52

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Nope, I'm just thrilled about God's love for man, that He'd even be willing to lay down His life in human flesh, suffering an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death at the hands of His own sinful creation if that's what it took to prove a love beyond our immediate comprehension, to show us a God that we didn't anticipate, a God who's all about man even though He could squash us like a bug.
More exalting man
 
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fhansen

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Keep seeking; there’s never a point where we know it all, of course, and from my perspective you’re stalled on a wooden interpretation of a few isolated passages of Scripture that’s plausible enough in its own way but lacking in the full understanding of the truth. Anyway, God and His will are more than concepts but an experience at the end of the day. He’ll be fully known in the next life but that knowledge begins here and can be had in deeper and and clearer manner. Meanwhile my understanding is also compatible with Scripture, especially as it's taken in its full context.
 
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fhansen

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In my theology God places demands on man, obligation: again, like a good parent guiding their child into greater maturity/responsibility/character. In yours it's just all easy-peasy. God does it all for those who're lucky enough to be numbered among the elect, as if we could even know perfectly who they are.
 
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