Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:01 PM

fhansen said:
Yes, because it means reconciliation with God. That's why Jesus came. And this reconciliation isn't a merely legal status as a sort of side aspect to justifcation but it is our justifaction because it means the personal, direct communion between man and God that man was made for and is lost without, the relationship between Creator and created that Adam forfeited. Now, if I take that relationship seriously, I will enter into it. If I comntinue to take it seriuosly I will remain in it, increasingly doing His will, or returning to that in true repentance if I were to seriously stray.

IOW, salvation is all about nearness to God. Those who remain near will produce good fruit, persevering to the end, proving themselves to be good soil. Others may stay for awhile, even producing some good fruit but later letting the cares or attractions of the world drown out and kill that relationship. Others yet won't bother answering His call at all.

Then you are misleading, and exalting man, if you say Jesus one obedience didn't make those He lived and died for righteous/saved. You put it into the mans hand, to take it seriously ! Thats works and exalting man

fhansen · Friday at 2:01 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Now you make no sense. If Christ obeyed for all mankind, and His obedience makes them He obeyed for righteous and obedient, how come all mankind isn't saved and obedient ? Are you a universalist ?

No, in Christianity the wildcard is always us. We may or may not respond, may or may not hear His words and put them into practice, may or may not open the door when He knocks, and may or may not remain in and with Him if we do let Him in. That's why we're warned and instructed about those very possibilites. Again, believers are not turned into some kind of automatons who can only do His will. Some, in fact, will believe but still refuse to profess it "for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:43

fhansen · Friday at 2:06 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Then you are misleading, and exalting man, if you say Jesus one obedience didn't make those He lived and died for righteous/saved. You put it into the mans hand, to take it seriously ! Thats works and exalting man

Again, it's both/and, at God's wise discretion; He wants us to do our part, no matter how small. Jesus died for all, because God loves all: John 3:16, 2 Cor 5:15-21.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:28 PM

fhansen said:
No, in Christianity the wildcard is always us.

Lol Exalting man

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:30 PM

fhansen said:
; He wants us to do our part,

Exalting man, taking Salvation Glory from God in Christ alone, and sharing it with man

fhansen · Friday at 2:34 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Lol Exalting man

It's just a matter of better knowing God and His will and purposes for man...LOL

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:38 PM

fhansen said:
It's just a matter of better knowing God and His will and purposes for man...LOL

No way around it, you exalt man to the throne

fhansen · Friday at 2:44 PM

Brightfame52 said:
No way around it, you exalt man to the throne

No way around it, you've bought into a rather novel, private theology that skews the truth a fair bit away from more fully understanding God's purpose for man from the beginning of creation.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 3:07 PM

fhansen said:
No way around it, you've bought into a rather novel, private theology that skews the truth a fair bit away from more fully understanding God's purpose for man from the beginning of creation.

All things were created for Christ Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

You make it about man

fhansen · Friday at 3:30 PM

Brightfame52 said:
All things were created for Christ Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

You make it about man

God wants to glorify man as Scripture affirms-that's why He created us. This is done as He transforms us into His own image. Jesus came as a human to, for one thing, show us that model, that model of a human being always united to God. Man's "job" is only to say "yes", instead of "no" to the only One who can make man into something worthwhile, something truly grand, in fact, something better then He started with in Eden. And that's the very reason He gave man freedom to begin with, so that man might, even if weakly at first, and totally aided by grace, muster up that "yes", which then changes everything for him. The more willingly we're aligned with God's will, the greater we are as beings. To put it another way, the more we love, the greater our righteousness, our justice, and the nearer we are to Him. And that love, again, necessarily, is both a gift from Him and a choice of ours- to embrace and express it.

What God didn't do was to say "I'm now going to create humans and some I'll put in heaven to eternal happiness and some I'll put in hell to eternal torment: eternal torment, without regard to their wills, to their choice in the matter. Not because they refused to respond to the revelation, the grace, the love, they were shown: I'll just put them there...forever."

Carl Emerson · Friday at 4:12 PM

Jan001 said:
We cannot be sure until we are judged if we are truly one of God's own. It is presumptuous to believe that we cannot fall away from grace.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5a
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.

There is nothing presumptuous about the promise that believers will not perish in John 3:16.

There is nothing presumptuous about the New Covenant introducing the indwelling presence of Jesus in believers and the fear of the Lord sealing salvation as predicted in Jer 32:40.

You reference to 1 Cor 4 is more about Paul being confident in God's judgement, not about if he is saved.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 4:43 PM

fhansen said:
God wants to glorify man

Lol See its all about mans glory with you

Brightfame52 · Friday at 4:48 PM

fhansen said:
God wants to glorify man as Scripture affirms-that's why He created us.

God created man for Himself, His own Glory Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Jan001 · Friday at 4:48 PM

Carl Emerson said:
There is nothing presumptuous about the promise that believers will not perish in John 3:16.

There is nothing presumptuous about the New Covenant introducing the indwelling presence of Jesus in believers and the fear of the Lord sealing salvation as predicted in Jer 32:40.

There is the promise that believers will not perish.

There is also the possibility that the Christian will not still be a believer at the time of his death.

A believer is a person who obeys Jesus Christ's commandments until he dies.

Revelation 2:10
Don’t be afraid of what you are going to suffer. Look! The devil is going to throw some of you into prison in order to test you. You will suffer hardship for ten days. Be faithful even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Scripture contradicts your belief that a Christian cannot fall away from his faith. If the Christian remains faithful, not denying Christ by doing evil works, until he dies, God will grant him eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also rule together. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.

Carl Emerson · Friday at 4:50 PM

fhansen said:
Sure, as long as we know what belief means, which is engraftation into the Vine, union with God, a state inseparable from becoming holy lest we take the passage to mean that one is somehow immune from condemnation for all future sins no matter how egregious just because they claim to believe a couple of factoids about Jesus Christ.

A changed life with good fruit in evidence is the best testimony to ourselves and others that we really are His. To remain in sin, and perhaps proud of our constant acknowledgement of it without the overcoming of it would be to mock God and crucify Christ all over again after all He did to not only bring forgiveness of sin but also the power, the grace, to overcome it.

The gospel/new covenant is not about some kind of reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous and live accordingly, but is finally the authentic means of achieving that very thing, by the Spirit that gives life, not by the Letter which can only kill.

I think that confusion comes when we fail to separate two different issues. First is salvation which is given as a gift and is God's work alone determined before you are born. Second personal righteousness brings eternal reward and is judged by Him. The irony is that the latter is about walking in the Spirit and yielding to His intent within. So this is not our Work but His through us.

Carl Emerson · Friday at 4:52 PM

Jan001 said:
There is also the possibility that the Christian will not still be a believer at the time of his death.

Now there is an interesting distinction you make... What in your mind is the difference between a Christian and a believer ?

Jan001 · Friday at 5:00 PM

Carl Emerson said:
You reference to 1 Cor 4 is more about Paul being confident in God's judgement, not about if he is saved.

Paul's confidence is in God, who will help him remain faithful until his death. Paul fights against all things that could separate him from God. He disciplines himself to keep from committing grievous sins, thereby disqualifying himself from eternal life, which would be a terrible thing for him to do, especially after he has preached to others on how to attain it.

Philippians 2:10-13
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

1 Corinthians 9:25-27
Everyone who competes practices self-discipline in everything. The runners do this to get a crown of leaves that shrivel up and die, but we do it to receive a crown that never dies. 26 So now this is how I run—not without a clear goal in sight. I fight like a boxer in the ring, not like someone who is shadowboxing. 27 Rather, I’m landing punches on my own body and subduing it like a slave. I do this to be sure that I myself won’t be disqualified after preaching to others.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 5:10 PM

Jan001 said:
There is also the possibility that the Christian will not still be a believer at the time of his death.

false teaching

Christ's Bride · Friday at 5:19 PM

Aussie52 said:
There is a great deal of misunderstanding around the doctrine of 'imputed righteousness'. This is not new; there has been ongoing debates about it for the last 300 years. Why the debates you may ask? Simply because much that is taught about imputed righteousness cannot be gleaned from Scripture.
The common understanding taught by on-line & TV preachers and various authors is as follows.

When a person comes to Christ, they are 'justified' before God. This it is said, means one's sins are pardoned and the 'righteousness of Christ' is credited or imputed to them. What is usually meant by 'the righteousness of Christ'? What is communicated is that the virtue of Christ's obedience, while on earth, is 'placed in our account'. The goodness & holiness of Christ is transferred to us. We are now it is said, 'clothed in His righteousness'. God no longer looks at us and sees us as we are but now sees Jesus.

You might be thinking, well what's so wrong about that? This is what I believe. My question to you is, is it Scriptural. Does the Bible really teach this?

Well, there have been many reputable scholars, past & present who have questioned the scripturalness of this view. John Wesley called it, 'a legal fiction'. Charles Finney opposed this teaching. In our own time, N.T. Wright and Robert Gundry have object to it. And there are many more voices against it.

The first thing that I will bring to your attention is the fact that, nowhere does the Bible state that 'Christ's righteousness' is credited/imputed to the newly justified Christian. You read right. Nowhere is it stated. WE read of God's righteousness and the righteousness of God but NOT Christ's righteousness.

The second point is the meaning of the word, 'righteousness'. As Paul uses it in Romans 3&4. The word means 'God's saving activity' or' justification' or 'acceptance or right standing with God'. The idea of Christ's goodness & holiness being imputed is alien to Paul & Scripture.

Paul states clearly what He means by 'imputed righteousness' in Rom 4:6,7.
'just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin'.

To be justified is to be pardoned and accepted by God because of what Christ accomplished on the cross. The righteousness that is imputed is a " right standing or acceptance with God' because our sins have been removed, that obstacle that separated us from God, is now gone, we are 'declared righteous.'. Praise God.

Do you understand what the word "Pardon" means?

When a man is condemned to death and the Governor pardon's him, it means the sentence of death is set aside, the sentence of death is not carried out by an edict.

if the sentence of death for our sins against God, could be pardoned, then Christ did not need to die.

Our sins are paid for by the shed blood and death of our MAKER, Jesus Christ. Christ paid our penalty of death for us.

you can search the Torah and you will find, Transgressions of the 10 commandments demand the penalty of eternal death, "eternal" and can not be pardoned or forgiven or set aside.

our sins can not be forgiven or pardoned, either each of us or Jesus Christ must die.

When the term forgiven is used in the Word it means God the Father will remove from His memory all our sins --- After we repent and are baptized and endure until the end.

I see so often the Sacrifice our MAKER made for us ""worded"" away into nothingness. I must speak up.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 5:36 PM

Christ's Bride said:
When the term forgiven is used in the Word it means God the Father will remove from His memory all our sins --- After we repent and are baptized and endure until the end.

No He forgives ad removes the sins of the elect after what Christ did for them

Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

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