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With some Western reservoirs set to run dry, officials in Colorado, Utah and Oregon lift fishing limits in some areas

SimplyMe

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Yes, there's not enough mountain snowfall runoff these days to keep man-made lakes in the middle of a desolate desert environment full.

Like lake powell those reservoirs are man-made and would not naturally exist in the the arid desolate areas they're located in.

lakepowell_oli_2021239_lrg.jpg

We have tens of thousands of reservoirs in the US, that wouldn't naturally exist. Again, the OP is about two that are not in "desolate desert environments." I wonder how these dams managed to exist, and fill, in those decades where they worked like expected, back when there were only normal droughts and rainy periods, not a mega-drought? Then again, I always thought the purpose of reservoirs is to bring extra water to areas where, by nature, not that much exists. I can't think of a single place I've lived in the US, regardless of the amount of rainfall, that didn't use reservoirs to ensure there was water when needed.
 
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SimplyMe

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They'll probably return to full when the climate cycles into another trend. In the 50s Lake Mead water levels got pretty low. In the 80s levels got so high the spillways had to be opened.

But will any of us still be alive if and when that happens? Though, since you want to talk about "climate change" being used for politics, lets talk about the data centers the government is helping push in the Rocky Mountain region, and the amounts of water they need to operate as well as the heat they generate.

As an example, Utah just approved "the world's largest data center" to be built. To give some ideas, it will require 9 gigawatts of energy to run which is double what the entire state of Utah (to include the data centers here already) produces today. That will provide 7 to 8 gigawatts of waste heat (power generation creates lots of heat) or -- as a professor at Utah State university figured, the equivalent heat as 23 nuclear bombs exploding, per day. He ran some numbers and found the data center would raise the temperature in the valley where it will be built by 5 degrees per day and by 28 degrees each night. A professor at Brigham Young University verified the numbers, as well. And this doesn't count the billions of gallons of water (estimates exist higher than 16 billion gallons of water per year) -- water the area already doesn't have.

Now, while this is in the Great Basin, so doesn't directly affect the Colorado River basin, they've also shown that heat will be pushed into the nearby Colorado River basin -- and that amount of heat will affect the amount of snow, particularly the amount of snow that accumulates. Now, I'm sure, you'll say that it doesn't matter, that they'll still get the precipitation -- but that isn't how it works. While most of this area isn't desert, it is semi-arid. If you get periodic rain, like most places, the ground absorbs as much liquid as it can, and with a semi-arid area with dry ground, it can absorb most normal rainfall.

What makes the Colorado River work (with or without the dams) is that the precipitation, for maybe nine months of the year, largely drops as snow. Since the water is frozen, it sits on top of the ground and doesn't get absorbed. Then in late spring, as the snow starts melting, you are talking about months of rainfall melting. While the ground water absorbs what it can, it is quickly overwhelmed, so the bulk of the melted snow actually flows into the Colorado River.

Now, whether you believe in all this is immaterial, at this point. We have an issue where the West has water demands and, as things currently exist, there just won't be enough water for the next decade or longer. As I pointed out in another post, yes, maybe someday the snowfall will return -- but will any of us be alive when that finally happens? The Western US has a massive water crisis and can't wait for "someday the snow will return."
 
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Tuur

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Yes this isnt the first human experience with drought. I often visit ancient dwellings from that 12th c era. That drought drove massive migrations and even horrible violence. Its was a bad experience, apparently.

But the issue now is that a warming climate, driven by human activity, is more likley to result in a decreased snowpack - leading to changes that will cause lots of human suffering and difficulty. And the southwest climate and drought has only continued to get worse in the 16 years since that paper was published.
So we are told. I suspect there’s a good bit of hubris involved, like the flea swimming down the river and whistling for the drawbridge to open. Actual weather data in most of the world is remarkably short, particularly in the Americas. Paleoclimatology is something more useful because of the longer baseline, yet even there is not precise. The above link shows evidence of worse conditions than now, and if we have any interest in the science, shouldn’t be dismissed. Of particular question is since there were greater droughts not long ago in terms of geologic time scales, how confidently can we claim that every variation in weather is caused by mankind?
 
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Servus

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We have tens of thousands of reservoirs in the US, that wouldn't naturally exist. Again, the OP is about two that are not in "desolate desert environments." I wonder how these dams managed to exist, and fill, in those decades where they worked like expected, back when there were only normal droughts and rainy periods, not a mega-drought? Then again, I always thought the purpose of reservoirs is to bring extra water to areas where, by nature, not that much exists. I can't think of a single place I've lived in the US, regardless of the amount of rainfall, that didn't use reservoirs to ensure there was water when needed.
Apparently you didn't look at a satellite view of those reservoirs and see the barren landscape they're located in. Nobody said there shouldn't be reservoirs there. But the fact is a reservoir in a dry hot place is likely to dry up.
 
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Tuur

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Also, just for anyone who thinks that 16 year old paper you reference is meant to cast doubt on my assertions about human caused climate change, heres how it starts. (Im not talking about you here, of course, as you would have read it.)
Yet paleoclimatology shows greater variations within at least the last two thousand years. That’s a rather short period, as such things go.
 
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Servus

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But will any of us still be alive if and when that happens? Though, since you want to talk about "climate change" being used for politics, lets talk about the data centers the government is helping push in the Rocky Mountain region, and the amounts of water they need to operate as well as the heat they generate.

As an example, Utah just approved "the world's largest data center" to be built. To give some ideas, it will require 9 gigawatts of energy to run which is double what the entire state of Utah (to include the data centers here already) produces today. That will provide 7 to 8 gigawatts of waste heat (power generation creates lots of heat) or -- as a professor at Utah State university figured, the equivalent heat as 23 nuclear bombs exploding, per day. He ran some numbers and found the data center would raise the temperature in the valley where it will be built by 5 degrees per day and by 28 degrees each night. A professor at Brigham Young University verified the numbers, as well. And this doesn't count the billions of gallons of water (estimates exist higher than 16 billion gallons of water per year) -- water the area already doesn't have.

Now, while this is in the Great Basin, so doesn't directly affect the Colorado River basin, they've also shown that heat will be pushed into the nearby Colorado River basin -- and that amount of heat will affect the amount of snow, particularly the amount of snow that accumulates. Now, I'm sure, you'll say that it doesn't matter, that they'll still get the precipitation -- but that isn't how it works. While most of this area isn't desert, it is semi-arid. If you get periodic rain, like most places, the ground absorbs as much liquid as it can, and with a semi-arid area with dry ground, it can absorb most normal rainfall.

What makes the Colorado River work (with or without the dams) is that the precipitation, for maybe nine months of the year, largely drops as snow. Since the water is frozen, it sits on top of the ground and doesn't get absorbed. Then in late spring, as the snow starts melting, you are talking about months of rainfall melting. While the ground water absorbs what it can, it is quickly overwhelmed, so the bulk of the melted snow actually flows into the Colorado River.

Now, whether you believe in all this is immaterial, at this point. We have an issue where the West has water demands and, as things currently exist, there just won't be enough water for the next decade or longer. As I pointed out in another post, yes, maybe someday the snowfall will return -- but will any of us be alive when that finally happens? The Western US has a massive water crisis and can't wait for "someday the snow will return."
What can be done to change it?

BTW in assuming what I do and don't know, this is my umpteenth discussion regarding climate change over the last 15 years. There's nothing you're saying that I haven't already heard umpteen times.
 
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durangodawood

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....But the fact is a reservoir in a dry hot place is likely to dry up.
Why? That makes no sense as a blanket statement without considering where the water for that reservoir comes from or what draw down demand is placed on it.

The reservoirs you pictured are fed by the Colorado River which as far as we know has never dried up.
 
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durangodawood

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Yet paleoclimatology shows greater variations within at least the last two thousand years. That’s a rather short period, as such things go.
Past events are an awful excuse for us to behave in ways we now know will bring net bad consequences. The AA prayer thing may be a good way to look at this.
 
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Pommer

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Past events are an awful excuse for us to behave in ways we now know will bring net bad consequences. The AA prayer thing may be a good way to look at this.
When food chains collapse, the nations with AI to help figure out who to kill to get food will “win”.
Or something.
 
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Servus

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Why? That makes no sense as a blanket statement without considering where the water for that reservoir comes from or what draw down demand is placed on it.

The reservoirs you pictured are fed by the Colorado River which as far as we know has never dried up.
They either experienced low levels or dried up in the 1950s. Most Colorado River dams were built in the 30s or later. That's a pretty short period of time as far as climate cycles go, so there's no established long term pattern.

But aside from that, what's the solution to fixing climate change?
 
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Tuur

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Past events are an awful excuse for us to behave in ways we now know will bring net bad consequences. The AA prayer thing may be a good way to look at this.
While ignoring it masks that maybe things are not quite what we think, particularly what climatologists have criticized as the "Hollywoodization" of climate change. Hollywoodization is what we run into when every twitch in the weather is suddenly "AGW." So here we have a current drought in the US West that we are told by the AGW faithful is caused by humans, even though paleoclimatologists have identified worse droughts within the span of the last 2,000 years. That's practically an eyeblink on a geologic scale. Simply put, if we're seeing AGW effects now, it's still lost in the noise of natural phenomenon.
 
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SimplyMe

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Apparently you didn't look at a satellite view of those reservoirs and see the barren landscape they're located in. Nobody said there shouldn't be reservoirs there. But the fact is a reservoir in a dry hot place is likely to dry up.

I don't need to look at satellite views, I've been there. Again, I posted the average August high and low temperatures -- not nearly as hot as you are trying to make it out to be. Particularly since you likely don't realize it can snow at the reservoir in the winter and have the snow stick around for a while.

What can be done to change it?

BTW in assuming what I do and don't know, this is my umpteenth discussion regarding climate change over the last 15 years. There's nothing you're saying that I haven't already heard umpteen times.
Except you are the only one trying to argue climate change. I'm merely stating that the dam works, at least when there hasn't been a mega-drought. Though, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Glen Canyon Dam. Also, if you knew about that particular reservoir, you'd realize that (unlike Lake Mead), the issue isn't merely evaporative losses but actually there is an issue with seepage losses (water draining into the earth through the porous rocks in that canyon).

At the same time, the dams have become critical to life in the Western US and will cause major issues if a "fix" isn't found. My point has been, and continues to be, that it doesn't matter if the issue is caused by climate change or not. Either way, more water is needed in the West -- even if Lake Mead and Lake Powell were at full pool, as we continue to want to build more and more "thirsty" projects in the Southwest.

Also, I'm not sure why I didn't think of it earlier -- the area around Lake Powell was previously home to a large lake, Lake Bidahochi or Lake Hopi. Granted, the north end of the lake was located about where Glen Canyon Dam is located but it was still a large natural lake located on what is now the Colorado Plateau.
 
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Pommer

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They either experienced low levels or dried up in the 1950s. Most Colorado River dams were built in the 30s or later. That's a pretty short period of time as far as climate cycles go, so there's no established long term pattern.

But aside from that, what's the solution to fixing climate change?
Too bad that there’s no state next to the ocean with plenty of sun year round to run yuge desalination plants.
 
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Servus

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I don't need to look at satellite views, I've been there. Again, I posted the average August high and low temperatures -- not nearly as hot as you are trying to make it out to be. Particularly since you likely don't realize it can snow at the reservoir in the winter and have the snow stick around for a while.
It's still arid barren desert terrain.
Except you are the only one trying to argue climate change. I'm merely stating that the dam works, at least when there hasn't been a mega-drought. Though, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Glen Canyon Dam. Also, if you knew about that particular reservoir, you'd realize that (unlike Lake Mead), the issue isn't merely evaporative losses but actually there is an issue with seepage losses (water draining into the earth through the porous rocks in that canyon).
That tends to happen in barren desert terrain.
At the same time, the dams have become critical to life in the Western US and will cause major issues if a "fix" isn't found. My point has been, and continues to be, that it doesn't matter if the issue is caused by climate change or not. Either way, more water is needed in the West -- even if Lake Mead and Lake Powell were at full pool, as we continue to want to build more and more "thirsty" projects in the Southwest.

Also, I'm not sure why I didn't think of it earlier -- the area around Lake Powell was previously home to a large lake, Lake Bidahochi or Lake Hopi. Granted, the north end of the lake was located about where Glen Canyon Dam is located but it was still a large natural lake located on what is now the Colorado Plateau.
If you're going to bring up prehistoric lakes, you might as well go with all of Colorado was once an ocean.
 
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Pommer

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I don't need to look at satellite views, I've been there. Again, I posted the average August high and low temperatures -- not nearly as hot as you are trying to make it out to be. Particularly since you likely don't realize it can snow at the reservoir in the winter and have the snow stick around for a while
August came to be the summer month that nothing happened in in part because cause that’s also (coincidentally enough) when the winter’s “ice” would run out. They’d saw big blocks of ice in winter and ship it out to, well, everywhere. They’d use straw and cork-lined railroad cars as insulators. Worked fairly good until around August.
MOUNTIANS can get cold at night, as I checked Denver is sitting at about 80°F, Vail is 59°, less than 80 miles, (as the crow flies), away.
 
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Pommer

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Now I ain’t no engineer civil or otherwise, but I’m pretty sure that when the builders of these dams were designing them, they had been under the impression that there would be trillions of kgs of water pushing against the dams-proper. Without “enough” water, the structures might not be able to hold up their own weight, without shifting the “connection-points”.

Like I said, I ain’t an engineer.
 
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Pommer

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I know that there’s a bunch of stuff in my own life that I need to be doing, but I’m also not going to do them unless I am forced to do so.
Large groups of people sharing a nation are often in similar straits.
 
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Servus

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Now I ain’t no engineer civil or otherwise, but I’m pretty sure that when the builders of these dams were designing them, they had been under the impression that there would be trillions of kgs of water pushing against the dams-proper. Without “enough” water, the structures might not be able to hold up their own weight, without shifting the “connection-points”.

Like I said, I ain’t an engineer.
They didn't know the long term history of the Rocky Mountains snowpacks when they built those things in the 30s.
 
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Pommer

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They didn't know the long term history of the Rocky Mountains snowpacks when they built those things in the 30s.
So if they crumble due to “lack of use”, that’s okay?
 
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