Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Hentenza · Friday at 9:02 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Now your getting it, all will have faith a few in the mortal body, the rest, after a aionion kolasis that may last a long time. Jesus did not fail to save his beloved cosmos, nothing is impossible for the Father. Phil 2:10-11 " So at the name of Jesus every knee- of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean- should bend, and every tongue gladly confess( Greek word exomologeo ) that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father."
Faith is a gift not something we conger up, all we need to do is metanoia, get our thinking in line with the Father/ Jesus and agree to what they have done and walk in it.

This is not a biblical teaching.

ProtestantChr1stian · Friday at 9:05 AM

Jipsah said:
So everybody has eternal life no matter what, ne c'est pas?

So once again, "death" doesn't really mean death. Everybody Lives Forever.

THen why call it "death"? And contrst it with eternal life?

Which is a bit of rigamarole to turn "death" into something other than "death". No worky.

I see that you are so much under the influence of the spirit of doubt, confusion and stubbornness. You are not looking for answers or discussions. You're looking for unnecessary arguments and want to spread doubt which ain't happening in Jesus name. Also, if you have paid attention, the context of death there where I commented as such was "the second death", which means eternal separation from God. The death you're talking about all the time unnecessarily is the first death. Every creature on Earth is meant to have the first literal death. It is the consequence of our sin in the Garden of Eden.

ProtestantChr1stian · Friday at 9:10 AM

Hentenza said:
This is not a biblical teaching.

Jeff Saunders said:

Now your getting it, all will have faith a few in the mortal body, the rest, after a aionion kolasis that may last a long time. Jesus did not fail to save his beloved cosmos, nothing is impossible for the Father. Phil 2:10-11 " So at the name of Jesus every knee- of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean- should bend, and every tongue gladly confess( Greek word exomologeo ) that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father."
Faith is a gift not something we conger up, all we need to do is metanoia, get our thinking in line with the Father/ Jesus and agree to what they have done and walk in it.

Click to expand...

I just can't understand what kind of Christian you and your "squad" are, with no biblical backing and Bible never in any of your conversations. You in fact use it to create more confusion and use it to contradict others' arguments which are from the Bible itself. How ironic. This is so not done dude. You're just messing around. You have no purpose here as it seems to me.

ProtestantChr1stian · Friday at 9:11 AM

My comment is for @Jeff Saunders . Thank You.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 9:42 AM

David1701 said:
In almost every place (there are only about two exceptions), in the New Testament, where "aionios/aionion" appears, it means "undefined duration because endless", which would normally be translated as "eternal", "everlasting", "perpetual", or similar. Check "Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words", or, "Robertson's Word Pictures", or other reputable expository dictionaries of New Testament Greek.

Your claim about "restorative punishment not retribution" is just nonsense. Since when has salvation ever been by punishment? Salvation is by grace through faith, not by punishment. It is the saved who are pruned (to bear more fruit, not because they do not bear any fruit), not the lost. The lost are punished in hell, perpetually, for their past and continuing sin.

I challenge you look up on AI how the Greek word aion/ aionion were used 2000 years ago in Scripture and other literature of the time and you will see that the definition that you use is a modern one 1500 years old, not what was used when Scripture was written.
Its like if I were to say to a group of young people from the 1920's - Two men went out on the town and had a gay time. if you were to ask what they might of done, they may say went to a pub and had a few beers and played cards, or maybe they say a play, went to a soda shop, or a festival or something. Now if I asked a group of 20 somethings today what they might have done you would get a whole different understanding of what a gay time is, and it isn't good.
" It is the saved who are pruned" show me one scripture that says the saved go through anionion kolasis.
1 Cor 3:15 saved as through fire, restorative punishment.
Luke 12:47-48 many stripes or few stripes, restorative punishment.
Matt 5:26 not get out till the last penny is paid, restorative punishment.

David1701 · Friday at 10:31 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I challenge you look up on AI how the Greek word aion/ aionion were used 2000 years ago in Scripture and other literature of the time and you will see that the definition that you use is a modern one 1500 years old, not what was used when Scripture was written.
Its like if I were to say to a group of young people from the 1920's - Two men went out on the town and had a gay time. if you were to ask what they might of done, they may say went to a pub and had a few beers and played cards, or maybe they say a play, went to a soda shop, or a festival or something. Now if I asked a group of 20 somethings today what they might have done you would get a whole different understanding of what a gay time is, and it isn't good.
" It is the saved who are pruned" show me one scripture that says the saved go through anionion kolasis.
1 Cor 3:15 saved as through fire, restorative punishment.
Luke 12:47-48 many stripes or few stripes, restorative punishment.
Matt 5:26 not get out till the last penny is paid, restorative punishment.

I don't use A.I., since it is extremely unreliable (it often makes things up).

The definitions I gave are from experts, who have studied the ancient Greek and know what they're talking about. In any case, how can you say that a definition that is 1,500 years old is a modern one?? That would place it in the 6th C. A.D.!

I did not say that the saved go through "aionion kolasis", since that is perpetual punishment.

Being saved, as through fire, refers to their works being burned up, not them!

The other two scriptures you've mentioned are certainly not restorative, but punitive, especially the "last penny" one, since there is absolutely no possibility that an unbelieving sinner will ever pay the "last penny" that he owes God. That is why Jesus died, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 3:20 PM

David1701 said:
I don't use A.I., since it is extremely unreliable (it often makes things up).

The definitions I gave are from experts, who have studied the ancient Greek and know what they're talking about. In any case, how can you say that a definition that is 1,500 years old is a modern one?? That would place it in the 6th C. A.D.!

I did not say that the saved go through "aionion kolasis", since that is perpetual punishment.

Being saved, as through fire, refers to their works being burned up, not them!

The other two scriptures you've mentioned are certainly not restorative, but punitive, especially the "last penny" one, since there is absolutely no possibility that an unbelieving sinner will ever pay the "last penny" that he owes God. That is why Jesus died, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

The definitions that you gave and use are from Augustinian sources, that were created from a bad Latin translation and not the Greek.
If you do no want to use AI, that's ok just go back and read the writings of the pre-Augustine church fathers, they spoke Greek, most of them, and lived in the culture or closer to it than now, and they were eastern mindset people, something that the west doesn't understand. If you want to see how the church thought before Christianity was the official religion of Rome, read these people, they read Scripture with a different lens that what you are saying.

David1701 · Friday at 4:13 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
The definitions that you gave and use are from Augustinian sources, that were created from a bad Latin translation and not the Greek.
If you do no want to use AI, that's ok just go back and read the writings of the pre-Augustine church fathers, they spoke Greek, most of them, and lived in the culture or closer to it than now, and they were eastern mindset people, something that the west doesn't understand. If you want to see how the church thought before Christianity was the official religion of Rome, read these people, they read Scripture with a different lens that what you are saying.

I don't use sources that rely upon the Latin Vulgate!

All the Bibles I use rely primarily upon the Hebrew and Greek, only where is doubt about a Hebrew or Greek reading, would they rely upon other sources.

The ECFs were all over the place regarding doctrine.

Jipsah · Friday at 4:57 PM

ProtestantChr1stian said:
I see that you are so much under the influence of the spirit of doubt, confusion and stubbornness.

Which is to say you can't or wont address what I said. Imagine my surprise.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
You are not looking for answers or discussions.

Well I'm certainly not get any from you, aml I? When asked a hard question, you retreat into religious posturing.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
You're looking for unnecessary arguments and want to spread doubt which ain't happening in Jesus name.

Not bit of it. I have a position to defend, as you do as well. The difference is that I'm willing to defend mine where you know as well as I your is indefensible.
I
f you have doubts about your beliefs, you might want to address them rather than simply responding with holier-than-thou religion affectation. Yeah, you're probably a much better person than I am, nothing more likely. But that lends no support to your baseless doctrine of eternal conscious torment. And the first and most obvious hole it in is that while Holy Writ time and again contrasts Eternal Life vs Death/Destruction, your doctrine requires you to believe that EVERYONE has eternal life by default. That while the Good Eternal Life of the Blessed is the Gift of God, the horrific eternal torment you believe to be the lot of condemned, can only be described as the Curse of God. And all the posturing and eye-rolling and Phriseeical role-playing can't make your position any more-unscriptural or any less untrue.

ProtestantChr1stian said:
Also, if you have paid attention, the context of death there where I commented as such was "the second death", which means eternal separation from God.

"Means" "separation from God
. in your doctrine, but we already know the value I place on your doctrine. How about let's try this: let's take Scripture at what it says? Instead of assigning self serving "meanings" to words that already have perfectly serviceable meanings attached to them, "Death" mens "death". "Die" means "become dead". " The opposite of life".

How about we we recast Romans 6:83. How about instead of "The wages of sin is death", so it says says "The wages of sin is eternal life separated from God". Just ain't the same, is it? How about "But the gift of God is eternal life as well, but a much nicer eternal life". I mean, that's what your lot believe that Romans 6:83 "really means",innit? So why not white out the one with what y'all believe is the unclear meaning, and replace it with what y'all thk is the coccect definition?

ProtestantChr1stian said:
The death you're talking about all the time unnecessarily is the first death. Every creature on Earth is meant to have the first literal death. It is the consequence of our sin in the Garden of Eden.

I'm sure that has some major significance in your eschatology, but I'm almost equally as sure that it's a contrivance designed to support your doctrine Uber alles as well

Jipsah · Friday at 5:00 PM

ProtestantChr1stian said:
My comment is for @Jeff Saunders . Thank You.

You'll find that there aren't any private messages in these forums.

Jipsah · Friday at 5:04 PM

Hentenza said:
No wonder this is in controversial “theology”.

I'm sorry, what?

JulieB67 · Sunday at 3:05 PM

Jipsah said:
. How about let's try this: let's take Scripture at what it says?

Exactly.
When you have to redefine words and make up your own meanings you should realize somethings not right. But no, let's keep going with traditions of men instead of taking Scripture at what it says.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 6:10 PM

David1701 said:
I don't use sources that rely upon the Latin Vulgate!

All the Bibles I use rely primarily upon the Hebrew and Greek, only where is doubt about a Hebrew or Greek reading, would they rely upon other sources.

The ECFs were all over the place regarding doctrine.

So you agree that the Greek word aionios is not eternal because that came from the Latin not the Greek .

David1701 · Sunday at 6:17 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
So you agree that the Greek word aionios is not eternal because that came from the Latin not the Greek .

As I've already explained, the Greek word "aionios" normally means "of indefinite duration, because endless". There are rare exceptions, in the Bible (two, if I recall correctly), but that is what it means, in the vast majority of cases. Correct translations for that would be things like "perpetual", "everlasting", "eternal", etc..

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 7:36 PM

David1701 said:
As I've already explained, the Greek word "aionios" normally means "of indefinite duration, because endless". There are rare exceptions, in the Bible (two, if I recall correctly), but that is what it means, in the vast majority of cases. Correct translations for that would be things like "perpetual", "everlasting", "eternal", etc..

I challenge you to look up the Greek meaning at the time the New Testament, and other literature of the time, if you see how aionios was used at the time of the New Testament and the other literature, you will find that it does not mean eternal, but -age enduring or end unknown but it has a end.
The Lexicons and most of the Biblical books of today use the Augustinian definition of aionios that came from a bad Latin translation, that is why it is important to look up sources as close to the actual writings.

David1701 · Sunday at 7:52 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I challenge you to look up the Greek meaning at the time the New Testament, and other literature of the time, if you see how aionios was used at the time of the New Testament and the other literature, you will find that it does not mean eternal, but -age enduring or end unknown but it has a end.
The Lexicons and most of the Biblical books of today use the Augustinian definition of aionios that came from a bad Latin translation, that is why it is important to look up sources as close to the actual writings.

Please give your source for the claim that the lexicons and biblical books of today use an "Augustinian definition of aionios that came from a bad Latin translation", thanks.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 11:47 AM

David1701 said:
Please give your source for the claim that the lexicons and biblical books of today use an "Augustinian definition of aionios that came from a bad Latin translation", thanks.

I do not have one source that you can go to but my view is composed of a lot of reading and connecting the dots to form a conclusion.
This is a page from Grock AI to show how the Greek word aionion/ aionios was used in the Greek of 2000 years ago.

Thought for 33s
"Aionion" (αἰώνιον / αἰώνιος, aiōnion/aiōnios) is the neuter/masculine adjective form of the noun "aion" (αἰών, aiōn), meaning "age," "eon," "era," "lifetime," or "long period of time."⁠Biblehub
Around 2000 years ago (roughly the Hellenistic to early Roman imperial period, ~1st century BCE to 2nd century CE), the word was in use in Koine Greek, including in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament), New Testament, and other literature. Its core sense derives from "aion," which originally related to "life-force," "span of life," or a defined period with a beginning and end, rather than absolute timelessness.⁠Mercyonall

Core Definition and Etymology

Aion (noun): A period or cycle of time, an age/era, lifetime, or (in some philosophical contexts) a long or indefinite duration. It could refer to a human lifespan, a historical era, or (hyperbolically) very long time. It does not inherently mean "endless" without qualifiers.⁠Mercyuponall
Aionios/aiōnion (adjective): "Pertaining to an age," "age-long," "age-enduring," "of the age," or "lasting for an age." It describes something characteristic of or belonging to a particular period (often the present age or the coming age). Lexicons like LSJ note "lasting for an age, perpetual, eternal," but distinguish it from stricter terms like aidios (ἀΐδιος, more unambiguously "everlasting" or "perpetual").⁠Christianforums

In philosophical usage, Plato (4th century BCE) is credited with first using the adjective aiōnios prominently, often in a way contrasting time-bound things with timeless eternity. For example, in Timaeus, he describes time as a "moving image" of eternity (aiōn), distinguishing created, age-related things from the eternal model.⁠Philosophy.stackexchange

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago

Classical/Hellenistic contexts: The word often meant "long-lasting," "ancient," or tied to a specific era rather than infinite duration. It could apply to things like punishments, covenants, or life that had limits (e.g., "aionian" fire or bonds that were not literally endless). Aristotle and others sometimes added qualifiers like aidios to emphasize endlessness, suggesting aiōnios alone did not always carry that force.⁠Mercyuponall
Septuagint (LXX, ~3rd–2nd century BCE): Translates the Hebrew olam ("long time," "ancient," "forever" in a durative or indefinite sense). Aionios describes covenants, hills, or periods that could end or be superseded.⁠Eitan
New Testament (1st century CE): Appears ~71 times, often as "eternal life" (zōē aiōnios)—life of the coming age—or "eternal punishment/fire." Context determines intensity and duration; it frequently contrasts "this age" with "the age to come" in Jewish apocalyptic thought. Scholars note it can emphasize quality (life belonging to God's age) over strict quantity of time.⁠Nootherfoundation

Examples of non-absolute usage (showing it applies to finite or qualified periods):

"Mystery kept secret for long ages" (Romans 16:25) — clearly not endless.⁠Carm
Temporary things like the Aaronic priesthood or certain hills described as aiōnios in the LXX, which later ended.
In broader literature, it could denote "antiquity," "great duration," or belonging to a world/era.⁠Theopneustos-writer.medium

Scholarly Debate

There is ongoing discussion among linguists and theologians:

Many traditional lexicons (e.g., BDAG, Strong's) list senses including "eternal" or "unending," especially when applied to God or divine realities.⁠Hermeneutics.stackexchange
Others (drawing on classical usage, Plato, and comparative Semitics) emphasize "age-related" or "pertaining to the (coming) age," arguing context and qualifiers determine if endlessness is intended. It is not always synonymous with aidios.⁠Academia

In summary, around 2000 years ago, "aionion" primarily meant "pertaining to an age" or "age-lasting"—a durative adjective tied to the concept of aion as a period or era. It could imply long or indefinite duration (sometimes hyperbolically "forever" in context), but did not automatically equal absolute, timeless eternity without contextual support or words like aidios. Its meaning was flexible and context-driven, as seen across philosophy, historiography, poetry, and religious texts of the era. For precise interpretation in any passage, surrounding context is essential.

Most of the Greek speaking early church fathers taught in their work that " Hell " was aionion, age enduring, it has a beginning and an end, verses aidios, Which does mean eternal.
Also they believed in Apokatastasis, Which is the renewal of all things, Acts 3, which means no one is lost eternally.
Theophilus of Antioch taught apokatastasis.
Clement of Alexandria also taught apokatastasis which he viewed as Universal salvation.
Origen of Alexandria taught apokatastasis that leads to Universal salvation.
Gregory the Wonderworker also taught the same thing.
Hilary of Poitiers, the same teaching.
Didymus the Blind, same teaching.
Gregory of Nyssa, the father of fathers and the father of orthodox, also the same.
Gregory of Nazianzen also the same.
There are others also but for time and space I think you will get the idea.

This was looked up from Grok

Exact Quote (common English translation)

“It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture, but, at the suggestion of their own feelings, they soften down everything that seems hard, and give a milder turn to statements which they think are rather designed to terrify than to be received as literally true.”

The Latin phrase is nonnulli, immo quam plurimi (“some, indeed very many” or “not a few, in fact a great many”).

Before Augustine the teaching of aionios as not the fringe, according to Augustine himself, " in fact a great many ", this was the norm till Christianity became the official Roman religion and Augustine would not use the Greek, but used the Latin which mistranslated aionion as eternal, several Greek bishops tried to correct him and they were banished. So eternal became the official stance of the Roman Church and those who opposed were either banished of killed. What Augustine did morphed into the Catholic Church, which the Protestants came from, and now we have had about 1500 years of Roman dominated religion that has produced most of the books of what we call Christian, and they mostly agree with each other.
This was not so before Augustine, if you read the commentaries of Origen they all use aionios as , age enduring or pertaining to the age, never eternal.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 1:46 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I do not have one source that you can go to but my view is composed of a lot of reading and connecting the dots to form a conclusion.
This is a page from Grock AI to show how the Greek word aionion/ aionios was used in the Greek of 2000 years ago.

Thought for 33s
"Aionion" (αἰώνιον / αἰώνιος, aiōnion/aiōnios) is the neuter/masculine adjective form of the noun "aion" (αἰών, aiōn), meaning "age," "eon," "era," "lifetime," or "long period of time."⁠Biblehub
Around 2000 years ago (roughly the Hellenistic to early Roman imperial period, ~1st century BCE to 2nd century CE), the word was in use in Koine Greek, including in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament), New Testament, and other literature. Its core sense derives from "aion," which originally related to "life-force," "span of life," or a defined period with a beginning and end, rather than absolute timelessness.⁠Mercyonall

Core Definition and Etymology

Aion (noun): A period or cycle of time, an age/era, lifetime, or (in some philosophical contexts) a long or indefinite duration. It could refer to a human lifespan, a historical era, or (hyperbolically) very long time. It does not inherently mean "endless" without qualifiers.⁠Mercyuponall

Aionios/aiōnion (adjective): "Pertaining to an age," "age-long," "age-enduring," "of the age," or "lasting for an age." It describes something characteristic of or belonging to a particular period (often the present age or the coming age). Lexicons like LSJ note "lasting for an age, perpetual, eternal," but distinguish it from stricter terms like aidios (ἀΐδιος, more unambiguously "everlasting" or "perpetual").⁠Christianforums

In philosophical usage, Plato (4th century BCE) is credited with first using the adjective aiōnios prominently, often in a way contrasting time-bound things with timeless eternity. For example, in Timaeus, he describes time as a "moving image" of eternity (aiōn), distinguishing created, age-related things from the eternal model.⁠Philosophy.stackexchange

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago

Classical/Hellenistic contexts: The word often meant "long-lasting," "ancient," or tied to a specific era rather than infinite duration. It could apply to things like punishments, covenants, or life that had limits (e.g., "aionian" fire or bonds that were not literally endless). Aristotle and others sometimes added qualifiers like aidios to emphasize endlessness, suggesting aiōnios alone did not always carry that force.⁠Mercyuponall

Septuagint (LXX, ~3rd–2nd century BCE): Translates the Hebrew olam ("long time," "ancient," "forever" in a durative or indefinite sense). Aionios describes covenants, hills, or periods that could end or be superseded.⁠Eitan

New Testament (1st century CE): Appears ~71 times, often as "eternal life" (zōē aiōnios)—life of the coming age—or "eternal punishment/fire." Context determines intensity and duration; it frequently contrasts "this age" with "the age to come" in Jewish apocalyptic thought. Scholars note it can emphasize quality (life belonging to God's age) over strict quantity of time.⁠Nootherfoundation

Examples of non-absolute usage (showing it applies to finite or qualified periods):

"Mystery kept secret for long ages" (Romans 16:25) — clearly not endless.⁠Carm

Temporary things like the Aaronic priesthood or certain hills described as aiōnios in the LXX, which later ended.

In broader literature, it could denote "antiquity," "great duration," or belonging to a world/era.⁠Theopneustos-writer.medium

Scholarly Debate
There is ongoing discussion among linguists and theologians:

Many traditional lexicons (e.g., BDAG, Strong's) list senses including "eternal" or "unending," especially when applied to God or divine realities.⁠Hermeneutics.stackexchange

Others (drawing on classical usage, Plato, and comparative Semitics) emphasize "age-related" or "pertaining to the (coming) age," arguing context and qualifiers determine if endlessness is intended. It is not always synonymous with aidios.⁠Academia

In summary, around 2000 years ago, "aionion" primarily meant "pertaining to an age" or "age-lasting"—a durative adjective tied to the concept of aion as a period or era. It could imply long or indefinite duration (sometimes hyperbolically "forever" in context), but did not automatically equal absolute, timeless eternity without contextual support or words like aidios. Its meaning was flexible and context-driven, as seen across philosophy, historiography, poetry, and religious texts of the era. For precise interpretation in any passage, surrounding context is essential.

Most of the Greek speaking early church fathers taught in their work that " Hell " was aionion, age enduring, it has a beginning and an end, verses aidios, Which does mean eternal.
Also they believed in Apokatastasis, Which is the renewal of all things, Acts 3, which means no one is lost eternally.
Theophilus of Antioch taught apokatastasis.
Clement of Alexandria also taught apokatastasis which he viewed as Universal salvation.
Origen of Alexandria taught apokatastasis that leads to Universal salvation.
Gregory the Wonderworker also taught the same thing.
Hilary of Poitiers, the same teaching.
Didymus the Blind, same teaching.
Gregory of Nyssa, the father of fathers and the father of orthodox, also the same.
Gregory of Nazianzen also the same.
There are others also but for time and space I think you will get the idea.

This was looked up from Grok

Exact Quote (common English translation)

The Latin phrase is nonnulli, immo quam plurimi (“some, indeed very many” or “not a few, in fact a great many”).

Before Augustine the teaching of aionios as not the fringe, according to Augustine himself, " in fact a great many ", this was the norm till Christianity became the official Roman religion and Augustine would not use the Greek, but used the Latin which mistranslated aionion as eternal, several Greek bishops tried to correct him and they were banished. So eternal became the official stance of the Roman Church and those who opposed were either banished of killed. What Augustine did morphed into the Catholic Church, which the Protestants came from, and now we have had about 1500 years of Roman dominated religion that has produced most of the books of what we call Christian, and they mostly agree with each other.
This was not so before Augustine, if you read the commentaries of Origen they all use aionios as , age enduring or pertaining to the age, never eternal.

You have two problems with your assumptions. First, if aionios means for an age then eternal life is not eternal either. Second, if faith is required for salvation (Eph, 2:8, John 3:16, etc.) then those without faith will not be saved. The mainstream scholarly argument does not agree with salvation after death, hence, the controversial nature of the teaching.

David1701 · Tuesday at 2:08 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I do not have one source that you can go to but my view is composed of a lot of reading and connecting the dots to form a conclusion.
This is a page from Grock AI to show how the Greek word aionion/ aionios was used in the Greek of 2000 years ago.

Thought for 33s
"Aionion" (αἰώνιον / αἰώνιος, aiōnion/aiōnios) is the neuter/masculine adjective form of the noun "aion" (αἰών, aiōn), meaning "age," "eon," "era," "lifetime," or "long period of time."⁠Biblehub
Around 2000 years ago (roughly the Hellenistic to early Roman imperial period, ~1st century BCE to 2nd century CE), the word was in use in Koine Greek, including in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament), New Testament, and other literature. Its core sense derives from "aion," which originally related to "life-force," "span of life," or a defined period with a beginning and end, rather than absolute timelessness.⁠Mercyonall

Core Definition and Etymology

Aion (noun): A period or cycle of time, an age/era, lifetime, or (in some philosophical contexts) a long or indefinite duration. It could refer to a human lifespan, a historical era, or (hyperbolically) very long time. It does not inherently mean "endless" without qualifiers.⁠Mercyuponall

Aionios/aiōnion (adjective): "Pertaining to an age," "age-long," "age-enduring," "of the age," or "lasting for an age." It describes something characteristic of or belonging to a particular period (often the present age or the coming age). Lexicons like LSJ note "lasting for an age, perpetual, eternal," but distinguish it from stricter terms like aidios (ἀΐδιος, more unambiguously "everlasting" or "perpetual").⁠Christianforums

In philosophical usage, Plato (4th century BCE) is credited with first using the adjective aiōnios prominently, often in a way contrasting time-bound things with timeless eternity. For example, in Timaeus, he describes time as a "moving image" of eternity (aiōn), distinguishing created, age-related things from the eternal model.⁠Philosophy.stackexchange

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago

Classical/Hellenistic contexts: The word often meant "long-lasting," "ancient," or tied to a specific era rather than infinite duration. It could apply to things like punishments, covenants, or life that had limits (e.g., "aionian" fire or bonds that were not literally endless). Aristotle and others sometimes added qualifiers like aidios to emphasize endlessness, suggesting aiōnios alone did not always carry that force.⁠Mercyuponall

Septuagint (LXX, ~3rd–2nd century BCE): Translates the Hebrew olam ("long time," "ancient," "forever" in a durative or indefinite sense). Aionios describes covenants, hills, or periods that could end or be superseded.⁠Eitan

New Testament (1st century CE): Appears ~71 times, often as "eternal life" (zōē aiōnios)—life of the coming age—or "eternal punishment/fire." Context determines intensity and duration; it frequently contrasts "this age" with "the age to come" in Jewish apocalyptic thought. Scholars note it can emphasize quality (life belonging to God's age) over strict quantity of time.⁠Nootherfoundation

Examples of non-absolute usage (showing it applies to finite or qualified periods):

"Mystery kept secret for long ages" (Romans 16:25) — clearly not endless.⁠Carm

Temporary things like the Aaronic priesthood or certain hills described as aiōnios in the LXX, which later ended.

In broader literature, it could denote "antiquity," "great duration," or belonging to a world/era.⁠Theopneustos-writer.medium

Scholarly Debate
There is ongoing discussion among linguists and theologians:

Many traditional lexicons (e.g., BDAG, Strong's) list senses including "eternal" or "unending," especially when applied to God or divine realities.⁠Hermeneutics.stackexchange

Others (drawing on classical usage, Plato, and comparative Semitics) emphasize "age-related" or "pertaining to the (coming) age," arguing context and qualifiers determine if endlessness is intended. It is not always synonymous with aidios.⁠Academia

In summary, around 2000 years ago, "aionion" primarily meant "pertaining to an age" or "age-lasting"—a durative adjective tied to the concept of aion as a period or era. It could imply long or indefinite duration (sometimes hyperbolically "forever" in context), but did not automatically equal absolute, timeless eternity without contextual support or words like aidios. Its meaning was flexible and context-driven, as seen across philosophy, historiography, poetry, and religious texts of the era. For precise interpretation in any passage, surrounding context is essential.

Most of the Greek speaking early church fathers taught in their work that " Hell " was aionion, age enduring, it has a beginning and an end, verses aidios, Which does mean eternal.
Also they believed in Apokatastasis, Which is the renewal of all things, Acts 3, which means no one is lost eternally.
Theophilus of Antioch taught apokatastasis.
Clement of Alexandria also taught apokatastasis which he viewed as Universal salvation.
Origen of Alexandria taught apokatastasis that leads to Universal salvation.
Gregory the Wonderworker also taught the same thing.
Hilary of Poitiers, the same teaching.
Didymus the Blind, same teaching.
Gregory of Nyssa, the father of fathers and the father of orthodox, also the same.
Gregory of Nazianzen also the same.
There are others also but for time and space I think you will get the idea.

This was looked up from Grok

Exact Quote (common English translation)

The Latin phrase is nonnulli, immo quam plurimi (“some, indeed very many” or “not a few, in fact a great many”).

Before Augustine the teaching of aionios as not the fringe, according to Augustine himself, " in fact a great many ", this was the norm till Christianity became the official Roman religion and Augustine would not use the Greek, but used the Latin which mistranslated aionion as eternal, several Greek bishops tried to correct him and they were banished. So eternal became the official stance of the Roman Church and those who opposed were either banished of killed. What Augustine did morphed into the Catholic Church, which the Protestants came from, and now we have had about 1500 years of Roman dominated religion that has produced most of the books of what we call Christian, and they mostly agree with each other.
This was not so before Augustine, if you read the commentaries of Origen they all use aionios as , age enduring or pertaining to the age, never eternal.

This is all very unconvincing, as evidence for Universalism (to put it mildly); and it's certainly not proof that "aionios" means "of limited duration", in the places where you want it to mean that.

So what if very many Christians, in Augustine's time, didn't like the thought of eternal punishment for the lost? Since when has sentimentality been a measure of sound doctrine?

I have absolutely no desire to read the commentaries of the Gnostic heretic Origen, or his disciples!

Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation. In contrast, for those in hell: the smoke of their torment rises perpetually. As the Lord said, in hell, their "worm" does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 8:01 PM

Hentenza said:
You have two problems with your assumptions. First, if aionios means for an age then eternal life is not eternal either. Second, if faith is required for salvation (Eph, 2:8, John 3:16, etc.) then those without faith will not be saved. The mainstream scholarly argument does not agree with salvation after death, hence, the controversial nature of the teaching.

I know we went over this before but here we go again, the reason that we can say eternal life is because the age that is eternal is in Jesus and he is eternal so the life is eternal, aionios is like the word tall, if I said " a tall man stood in front of a tall skyscraper " the man is not as tall as a skyscraper, tall is used for both but we know that a skyscraper is taller than the man. With the logic that you use the man and the skyscraper have to be the same height because tall was used to describe each one.
Yes all must bend the knee to be saved, few do that in the mortal body, most after the mortal flesh is dead, they still live but the mortal body is dead.
This is what was taught by a majority of the Greek speaking early church Christians before Augustine. I know it goes against Roman religion but that does not make it false.

Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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Core Definition and Etymology​

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago​

Scholarly Debate​

Exact Quote (common English translation)​

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Core Definition and Etymology​

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago​

Scholarly Debate​

Exact Quote (common English translation)​

Active Member

Core Definition and Etymology​

Usage in Greek Literature ~2000 Years Ago​

Scholarly Debate​

Exact Quote (common English translation)​

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