Sociological Christianity

dms1972 said:

I started reading this article

Christian Deconstruction: Why True Believers Never Really Leave the Faith

Examining Christian deconstruction from a biblical perspective. Discover why many who deconstruct their faith were never truly saved and what Scripture teaches about genuine salvation that perseveres.

christianwakeupcall.com

"The core problem underlying the deconstruction of Christianity is simple yet profound: many claim to be Christians without possessing saving faith. Jesus addressed this directly when He said, “A tree will be known by its fruits” (Matthew 7:16). This fundamental truth exposes the disconnect between verbal profession and spiritual reality, often leading to religious deconstruction."​

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"Many in our churches today have adopted the label “Christian” without experiencing regeneration. They’ve participated in religious activities, embraced Christian culture, and identified with Christian communities—but have never been born again. Their faith is sociological rather than theological, cultural rather than supernatural. This lack of authenticity can eventually lead to deconstructing Christianity."​

I have to say I eventually done a bit of deconstruction over 30 years ago, and haven't really identified as christian since.

But I feel the problem for me was christianity always seemed tied to particular denominations. If being a christian meant being part of a particular denomination I felt I didn't want that. They had a particular understanding of some doctrines that wasn't sure I agreed with. Its also possible I was spiritually estranged from christianity by that point, and had another "spiritual" orientation.

I think these "sociological christians" could be challenged through the preaching ministry. So is there something wrong there?

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In perusing the article you linked in the OP, I didn't see much in the way of any talk about sociological Christians. Are you referring to those who distance themselves from their former Christian faith through deconstruction? If so, I don't think I'd label them as such really. The issues involved in any one person having belief are complicated.

dms1972 said:

In the bit I quoted it said their "faith is sociological rather than theological".

I think some people may join a church and their life starts to revolve around the church and its activities, but they haven't necessarily come to faith.

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Maybe in some cases there are individuals who join a church and then later walk away. But a number of people who walk away actually grew up in a church where their families were members or regularly attended, and more often than not, they were told that the Bible is a perfect book. Not all are individuals who have simply joined a church for sociological reasons (not that those are wholly bad, actually), nor are those who are more relationally oriented necessarily those who 'fall away.'

Much of the so-called deconstruction movement is a decultification of a more fundamentalist view of the Bible or of more hyper levels of expectation regarding human conduct and psychology. A lot of it is just sheer disappointment and cognitive dissonance.

In having talked to, listened to and studied a wide range of people who have told their own story about leaving the faith, there is a wide plethora of reasons why people choose to distance themselves from their former Christian beliefs. So, I think we need to be careful about jumping to what in some cases is a false attribution bias about the 'kind' of person who might leave the faith. Because life and faith are fraught with various perils, we need to have grace and mercy at the forefront in our considerations of these folks. There's a lot any of us has to deal with.

Have faith in Jesus not in a church, have faith in Jesus saving power. If the church is not teaching it then it won’t even matter to anyone if they fall away. They never were really saved. But Jesus has to be taught like the truth should be. Sociological Christian’s are just that- humanist. But true Christian’s have God and the HS not a church or church activities which are limited.

dms1972 said:

I started reading this article

Christian Deconstruction: Why True Believers Never Really Leave the Faith

Examining Christian deconstruction from a biblical perspective. Discover why many who deconstruct their faith were never truly saved and what Scripture teaches about genuine salvation that perseveres.

christianwakeupcall.com

"The core problem underlying the deconstruction of Christianity is simple yet profound: many claim to be Christians without possessing saving faith. Jesus addressed this directly when He said, “A tree will be known by its fruits” (Matthew 7:16). This fundamental truth exposes the disconnect between verbal profession and spiritual reality, often leading to religious deconstruction."​

​

"Many in our churches today have adopted the label “Christian” without experiencing regeneration. They’ve participated in religious activities, embraced Christian culture, and identified with Christian communities—but have never been born again. Their faith is sociological rather than theological, cultural rather than supernatural. This lack of authenticity can eventually lead to deconstructing Christianity."​

I have to say I eventually done a bit of deconstruction over 30 years ago, and haven't really identified as christian since.

But I feel the problem for me was christianity always seemed tied to particular denominations. If being a christian meant being part of a particular denomination I felt I didn't want that. They had a particular understanding of some doctrines that wasn't sure I agreed with. Its also possible I was spiritually estranged from christianity by that point, and had another "spiritual" orientation.

I think these "sociological christians" could be challenged through the preaching ministry. So is there something wrong there?

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Thank God for Christians who are evaluating their denominations who teach false doctrines! Would it surprise anyone here that the main culprit is hyper-charismatic and Pentecostal movements? They are experiencing a massive wave of departure, particularly among younger generations who grew up in these environments. Don't get me wrong, I am a Charismatic however, there is deep trouble in these circles and the Holy Spirit is calling them out. This article is woefully inadequate at best and completely out of touch. Look around. The evangelical movement has been taken over by politics, by charlatans and by wolves in sheep's clothing. His Holy Spirit is calling these young people out. They are the remnant. You can call it what you want but, these young folks have had enough. Let them deconstruct so that they can really know Him who will reconstruct true faith in them. They will become stronger, faith filled, God fearing Christians . This is a revival.

My two cents.

Be blessed.

dms1972 said:

Its more that I was not spiritually speaking a christian anymore and was struggling with belonging to a church. They may have been ok in their doctrines, it wasn't a charismatic or pentecostal church, it was Presbyterian.

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Calvinism is a false theology which is deeply rooted in the Presbyterian denomination. Glad you deconstructed.

dms1972 said:

Describes me somewhat, I struggled for a long time by myself with finding a church in my teens and early twenties. I wasn't "orthodox" or "evangelical". I had absorbed some of the modernist theology and in particular the thought Schubert Ogden and had been reading the Aquarian Conspiracy and felt I was outside the circle of orthodoxy. I remember attempting to go to a church service by myself in my teens. I picked one fairly close. I went in and sat down, but some thought I hadn't understood it was a church service. Someone approached me to escort me out, but I got up and left. I knew I didn't have real faith, just some confused mix of spirituality and philosophical theism.

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I've struggled my whole life to find a church, and a lot of people are feeling what you felt as a teenager, or even now, to varying degrees these days. Speaking for myself, I've always been on the outside looking in, but I do attempt to remain within the bounds of essential Trinitarain orthodoxy, however minimally and philosophically I may do so. As for Schubert Ogden, I've heard of him and have read about him in bits and pieces along with some of the other names associated with Process Theology. I've run a wide gamut of different kinds of theologies and theologians over the decades and if someone tells me they've read them or been influenced by them, all I do is shrug and simply suggest to them to keep the door open to other ventures of exploration.

And I can't believe they wanted to escort you out of that church. You're not the first one to tell me a personal account like that, sad to say.

dms1972 said:

In my teens I had embraced humanism to some extent, but I was probably in unbelief in any case.

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It is difficult to believe, so I'm with you there (it's also one reason I study Critical Biblical Scholarship and Philosophy---so I can deconstruct the modes of deconstruction and find my way out of rabbit holes).

Some of what you feel might not be a spiritual state as much as a state of depression and isolation. I say that because I've had angst in my life here and there too, and it always feel cold and dead (and amiably more open to humanism) when I do. Don't beat yourself up over it. I'm impressed for the fact that you keep coming around to talk about all of this.

Believe in Jesus like a little child first before you go off into men and philosophies and churches. The Bible alone can save you. Yous can get derailed in your search and sour on the whole faith excursion. But it’s Jesus who saves. Sounds like @dms1972 never got there but is looking for something to believe. It won’t hit you over the head to believe it, or not. If you’ve been polluted about God, then He is the one to go to. ‘If there is a God then show yourself to me’. And wait. He is the way, the truth and the life, He is the light. What’s so hard in believing Him. Many people can’t, only a few are concerned about it. If you feel like you know what the Bible is saying then rejoice. Go to a Calvary chapel, I trust them.

dms1972 said:

Deep down I think I have a different spiritual orientation. Its been a struggle since I was young.

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What is it about Christianity that interests you in comparison to whatever other religions or worldviews claim to offer?

Maria Billingsley said:

Thank God for Christians who are evaluating their denominations who teach false doctrines! Would it surprise anyone here that the main culprit is hyper-charismatic and Pentecostal movements? They are experiencing a massive wave of departure, particularly among younger generations who grew up in these environments. Don't get me wrong, I am a Charismatic however, there is deep trouble in these circles and the Holy Spirit is calling them out. This article is woefully inadequate at best and completely out of touch. Look around. The evangelical movement has been taken over by politics, by charlatans and by wolves in sheep's clothing. His Holy Spirit is calling these young people out. They are the remnant. You can call it what you want but, these young folks have had enough. Let them deconstruct so that they can really know Him who will reconstruct true faith in them. They will become stronger, faith filled, God fearing Christians . This is a revival.

My two cents.

Be blessed.

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Oh, I don't know that those who deconstruct will reconstruct. I see very little evidence of that taking place, and it's probably because a number of those who deconstruct have a certain kind of "results oriented" psychology.

dms1972 said:

I don't know - I just think its that I was brought up in a christian home, but I always struggled with faith, really repentance I suppose.

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What are you expecting 'repentance' to do or be in your life if it were true?

dms1972 said:

Its hard to explain were I am at now. I am not sure what I want.

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Yeah, and that sort of ideological displacement makes things twice as hard, I know. But if Christianity is true, what do you think the Lord would direct you to "want"?

dms1972 said:

I felt I had completely left Christianity many years ago. I knew when I would go to church I wasn't on the same spiritual wavelength anymore. These were bible believing people. How I came to that place in life I cannot recall. I was a bit inclined to syncretise beliefs. So at that point feeling in need of something to guide my life, I delved into CG Jung writings. That didn't really help though, and I ended up more confused.

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Everyone is at a different place on the belief continuum, for both kind and strength. So, try not to knock yourself out just because other people who strongly identify as Christian (despite all of their hidden sins and secret doubts) try to heap a guilt trip on you for not aligning with them perfectly in type and intensity.

Assuming it's true, what do you feel or think the Christian faith should be doing for you in this life?

2PhiloVoid said:

Oh, I don't know that those who deconstruct will reconstruct. I see very little evidence of that taking place, and it's probably because a number of those who deconstruct have a certain kind of "results oriented" psychology.

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There are many who have gone through the process of deconstruction who decided to become content creators. This is a good place to start when searching out someones journey to the truth. Additionally, there is a clear difference between apostasy and deconstruction. The fact that someone wants to take a step back from what they have been taught is a sure sign the they remain seekers and not a defector. That being said, I'm still holding out for Bart Ehrman !

Maria Billingsley said:

There are many who have gone through the process of deconstruction who decided to become content creators. This is a good place to start when searching out someones journey to the truth. Additionally, there is a clear difference between apostasy and deconstruction. The fact that someone wants to take a step back from what they have been taught is a sure sign the they remain seekers and not a defector. That being said, I'm still holding out for Bart Ehrman !

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On a basic level I agree with what you're saying. However, from what I've seen, read and heard, many who engage in so-called "deconstruction" simply avail themselves of, and give themselves to, secular and atheistic scholars who do nothing but tear apart the Bible at all levels. That form of biblical criticism is more of a reactive emotional response than it is a focused, balanced, hermeneutically formed reorientation toward the Bible.

In other words, despite what is advertised about it, street level deconstruction isn't so much about critically reappraising one's view of the Bible or of the Christian faith as it is a decision to reside within a new emotionally distraught cocoon of antagonism and discontent toward what was formally held and believed. We need to keep the hype about 'deconstruction' in mind as what it is----hype.

But I'm still holding out for Bart Ehrman as well.

2PhiloVoid said:

On a basic level I agree with what you're saying. However, from what I've seen, read and heard, many who engage in so-called "deconstruction" simply avail themselves of, and give themselves to, secular and atheistic scholars who do nothing but tear apart the Bible at all levels. That form of biblical criticism is more of a reactive emotional response than it is a focused, balanced, hermeneutically formed reorientation toward the Bible.

In other words, despite what is advertised about it, street level deconstruction isn't so much about critically reappraising one's view of the Bible or of the Christian faith as it is a decision to reside within a new emotionally distraught cocoon of antagonism and discontent toward what was formally held and believed. We need to keep the hype about 'deconstruction' in mind as what it is----hype.

But I'm still holding out for Bart Ehrman as well.

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in short they are feeding the flesh. GIGO. This gives in the conflict during believing the edge to the flesh. So you don’t believe whole heartedly. I protect my mind from the things of the world knowing there is deception in them. Tickling the ears is not a good way to maintain faith.

but if you are not even focused much on the faith and keep bringing up doubts, then what is going to overcome those doubts @dms1972 ? Put the word in and the word comes out.

dms1972 said:

I have to say I eventually done a bit of deconstruction over 30 years ago, and haven't really identified as christian since.

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In our group we were talking about how in "the 60's" there were people who were saying we all needed to "question" what we were told in our Christian church culture and the way the American government was doing things. But the ones saying to question had their motive. They were not interested in us getting with the real Jesus. But they wanted to get rid of the moral restraints; and now we are seeing which way they were headed.

But yes, I would say, God does want us to evaluate.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

But this does not mean to doubt everything. But test. And we might see how the "60's people" were counterfeit > if they were trying to get you to try on your own to evaluate. This could isolate you with your own self and your own limited capability for evaluating. But I will offer > where God says to test everything > He means for us to test in submission to God and in sharing with one another as family in Jesus, so we are not isolated and we have God making us able to test reliably and He has us sharing as family helping each other with testing "all things". He personally guides us, plus God uses our example and prayer to help one another.

And yes I would say the Bible can be used to find out what is real and true. But we need how God has us understanding. And we need how God gives us what His word means. Not only an explanation. There are things the Bible is talking about . . . including how God's love is, and how we become because of Jesus growing in us.

In order to see what is counterfeit, we need to know the real thing so we can compare everything to the real thing. So, yes God's word can help with this; but we need how God shares His real love and holy way with us, so we can compare things with this. Because it is possible to have His word, but we can fail to correctly understand what His word is saying; so we also need how our Father ***demonstrates*** all that His word means. A good teacher does not only talk and give us great explanations, but a genuine teacher also demonstrates and gives us experiences of what the teacher is talking about.

We need how God proves Himself in us, then. And then we can actually experience all that His words mean.

For example > Jesus Himself says >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'" (Matthew 11:28)

So, Jesus here is calling to "all". Come to Jesus. He wants "all" to come to Himself, and to no less. So, we can "rabbit hole" ourselves, maybe, by going and studying a bunch of people and their ideas. But Jesus calls us to Him. And He will give us "rest". So, Jesus is guaranteeing, how He will prove Himself to "all" who come to Him, by giving "rest" to all who trust in Jesus. Our Apostle Paul says, "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, there is personal trusting involved in coming to the real Jesus.

To come to trust Jesus > this trusting is not what people of this world know anything about. They have never truly trusted anyone! Each of us has needed how God alone is able to change us so we discover how it is to trust Jesus. And we keep growing in this. There is discovering needed, and God's demonstration. There is learning needed > with Jesus >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So . . . we do not only come to Jesus. But we need to take His "yoke" upon us. We have actual experience, in this, of having the yoke of Jesus. A yoke has you in connection and communication and in the control and the care of the one with the yoke. So, this is very personal and this is very sensitive and submissive . . . with Jesus Himself. And He says we will discover, I think this means, how Jesus teaching and guiding is "gentle and lowly in heart". You actually experience in yourself how Jesus is kind and personal and tender and gentle and humble in how He communicates and personally guides. In a yoke you are in constant contact and connection to be constantly guided . . . gently and humbly by Jesus Himself.

And so, He does not just talk to us and tell us. But God is quiet . . . never silent. But are we sensitive and quiet so we can share with Him and submit to Him, deeper than words?

Even so, God's word can bring us to reality of how we are so personally sharing with God Himself. All His word is meant not only for explanation and ideas and correct beliefs, then. But God's word does with us all that God Himself means, and that God in us does with us; He proves Himself, by having us doing all He means by His word, in sharing with us. And so we can rest, then; because it does not depend on any of us being able to correctly understand God and figure Him out. He is too much, to great, to be figured out > His ways are "past finding out", we have in Romans 11:33.

And so, no one is smart enough, no one is qualified to take us over > including our own selves > we are not able to know what to do with our own selves. And so . . . it is logical, maybe we can say . . . how Jesus says every one needs to deny one's own self, in order to be with the true Jesus and walk with Him >

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let Him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

So, if you want to get with the Jesus who is "gentle and lowly in heart" > we "all" have needed to deny our own selves, including our own human free wills which are part of our own selves. Because we ourselves have not been gentle and lowly in heart. We have not been all-loving, like Jesus, and we have not been generously forgiving, like Jesus was, on the cross. So, how we have been in our self's character is not enough. We have been our own enemy with our own counterfeit ways of trying and pushing and forcing and boasting how we have been doing things.

We needed to join Jesus on the cross > to take up our cross > so we could "die to self", and become alive in Jesus and in real love. Faith brings people together with Jesus and this faith has us becoming how Jesus is and therefore how He loves. Faith does not only have us trusting in Jesus out there somewhere at a distance, but faith has us together with Jesus in us. And Jesus in us has us becoming more and more like Him > "gentle and lowly in heart". Being "lowly" means being humble > Jesus who is so superior is humble . . . not at all conceited about being so superior; but Jesus so humble left Heaven itself, in order to reach us and save us. So, being humble like Jesus means we, too, love any and all people.

And we join with Jesus on the cross, joining in how Jesus on the cross had hope for any and all people > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And Jesus expects us to follow Him, by so all-loving >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (Matthew 5:46)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, taking up our cross includes dying to our own selves and how we humanly have been able to make choices with our own ways of doing things and seeing things. And learn from Jesus. On the cross with Jesus > become all-loving, feeding on the example of Jesus on the cross, of how to become loving and generously forgiving. This is what faith is about. It is not only about beliefs and correct ideas, then.

But our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7) And in God's almighty peace you will see what happens.