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A question to Roman Catholics about Purgatory

David Lamb

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In 2 Timothy 1:18 St. Paul prays for St. Onesiphorus who had reposed (and indeed the text of 2 Timothy 1:16-1:17 makes it clear that St. Onesiphorus is at rest in Christ.
But 2 Timothy 1:16-17 says nothing about Onesiphorus having died:

(2Ti 1:16) The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
(2Ti 1:17) but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.

And why shouldn’t St. Paul have prayed for St. Onesiphorus? There is no scriptural prohibition on offering such prayers, and there is an example in 2 Maccabees, which, even if one does not accept it as Scripture, or accepts it as “edifying but not for the establishment of any doctrine”*, we can regard 2 Maccabees as evidence of Jewish practices not prohibited by Scripture (indeed Jews continue to pray for the dead and since this is documented in 2 Maccabees it cannot be regarded as part of the corrupt tradition referred to by our Lord in Mark 7:13, for no commandment is violated by that practice.

And since i reject the “Regulatory Principle” as a Calvinist innovation on the basis of a complete lack of any mention of requiring a Scriptural example for all aspects of the faith in the Patristic corpus or in Scripture itself, and on the basis of Philippians 4:8, it seems that prayer for the dead should be accepted on this basis. It does not require a belief in the existence of purgatory, as it constitutes appeals to the mercy of Christ who is both our Judge and Advocate, and whose mercy is unbounded, for God is love, as we are told in Scripture, to quote the Cappadocians St. Basil and St. Gregory the Theologian, a boundless sea of being, the fullness of all perfections and virtues to their highest form and ultimate extent.

I find it greatly distressing that so many Christians seem to take offense to when I pray, how I pray, and what I pray for, despite the fact that I am a Nicene Christian and the praxis of the Orthodox Church does not violate any Scriptural injunctions (even the Sabbath commandment, for we worship on every Sabbath throughout the year, in addition to worshipping on the Lord’s Day, which is nowhere prohibited, neither is prayer for the dead prohibited).
I must just assure you that although I differ from you in the matter of praying for Christians who have died, I do not take offence at your praying. That is between you and God.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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But 2 Timothy 1:16-17 says nothing about Onesiphorus having died:

(2Ti 1:16) The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
(2Ti 1:17) but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.


I must just assure you that although I differ from you in the matter of praying for Christians who have died, I do not take offence at your praying. That is between you and God.
The question is not whether 2 Timothy 1:16–17 explicitly states that Onesiphorus had died, but that Paul’s language distinguishes between “the household of Onesiphorus” (1:16) and Onesiphorus himself, and later speaks of him only in the past tense (1:17) while offering a prayer that “the Lord grant him to find mercy on that Day” (1:18). This is the only place in the Pastoral Epistles where Paul prays for an individual in the eschatological judgement, and the Fathers—such as St John Chrysostom (Hom. in 2 Tim.)—took this as evidence of prayer for the departed. Catholic dogma does not claim this text proves purgatory on its own, but that it witnesses to the apostolic practice of praying for Christians who have died, which the Church later defined dogmatically at Florence and Trent.

Your courteous assurance is appreciated, but Catholic teaching holds that praying for the faithful departed is not a private devotional preference but a practice rooted in the communion of saints (CCC 958) and attested from the earliest Christian centuries (e.g., Apostolic Tradition 21; inscriptions in the catacombs). Scripture itself commands intercession for all who belong to Christ, living or dead, because “whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s” (Rom 14:8). Thus the Catholic position is not an innovation but the consistent application of the Church’s faith in Christ’s ongoing sanctifying work and the unity of His Body across death.



Here are the links to the sources I cited, using stable, authoritative editions wherever possible:


Primary Sources (Scripture & Early Church)



Magisterial Catholic Sources



Historical Evidence of Early Christian Prayer for the Dead



[Links provided by MS Copilot]
 
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David Lamb

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The question is not whether 2 Timothy 1:16–17 explicitly states that Onesiphorus had died, but that Paul’s language distinguishes between “the household of Onesiphorus” (1:16) and Onesiphorus himself, and later speaks of him only in the past tense (1:17) while offering a prayer that “the Lord grant him to find mercy on that Day” (1:18). This is the only place in the Pastoral Epistles where Paul prays for an individual in the eschatological judgement, and the Fathers—such as St John Chrysostom (Hom. in 2 Tim.)—took this as evidence of prayer for the departed. Catholic dogma does not claim this text proves purgatory on its own, but that it witnesses to the apostolic practice of praying for Christians who have died, which the Church later defined dogmatically at Florence and Trent.

Your courteous assurance is appreciated, but Catholic teaching holds that praying for the faithful departed is not a private devotional preference but a practice rooted in the communion of saints (CCC 958) and attested from the earliest Christian centuries (e.g., Apostolic Tradition 21; inscriptions in the catacombs). Scripture itself commands intercession for all who belong to Christ, living or dead, because “whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s” (Rom 14:8). Thus the Catholic position is not an innovation but the consistent application of the Church’s faith in Christ’s ongoing sanctifying work and the unity of His Body across death.



Here are the links to the sources I cited, using stable, authoritative editions wherever possible:


Primary Sources (Scripture & Early Church)



Magisterial Catholic Sources



Historical Evidence of Early Christian Prayer for the Dead



[Links provided by MS Copilot]
I just want to thank you for your reply. I wouldn't wish you to imagine I had ignored it, though I do not agree about Paul praying for Onesiphorus after he had died. Thanks again.
 
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says nothing about Onesiphorus having died:

It speaks of him in the past tense which is very unusual, and we know from Patristic chronology that St. Onesiphorus reposed St. Paul, and that 2 Timothy was among the last authored by the Holy Apostle Paul, before he was beheaded.

must just assure you that although I differ from you in the matter of praying for Christians who have died, I do not take offence at your praying. That is between you and God.

To be clear the issue of those taking offense at my worship practices has not come from yourself, indeed I have found you to be respectful and gentlemanly and I beg your forgiveness for expressing frustration about the attitudes of some in a manner that appeared to be critical of you.

On this case we may disagree, however, Baptists to their credit generally value different opinions among Christians and are seldom legalistic. Indeed one ancestor of mine was among the leadership of an Anglo-Dutch settlement of Baptists in the New World.
 
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David Lamb

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It speaks of him in the past tense which is very unusual, and we know from Patristic chronology that St. Onesiphorus reposed St. Paul, and that 2 Timothy was among the last authored by the Holy Apostle Paul, before he was beheaded.



To be clear the issue of those taking offense at my worship practices has not come from yourself, indeed I have found you to be respectful and gentlemanly and I beg your forgiveness for expressing frustration about the attitudes of some in a manner that appeared to be critical of you.

On this case we may disagree, however, Baptists to their credit generally value different opinions among Christians and are seldom legalistic. Indeed one ancestor of mine was among the leadership of an Anglo-Dutch settlement of Baptists in the New World.
Thank you for your respectful post - much appreciated, Thank you also for your apology which I assure you was not necessary, but thanks anyway.
 
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BobRyan

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Both the Jews in Mark 7 and the Catholic church claim they have infallible tradition.

1 John 4 says to test everything.

Mark 7 condemns the idea that later tradition can arise , and conflict with Bible teaching, and still be trusted.
Mark 7 explicitly refers to the Pharisaical tradition.
Mark 7 is not in the form "bad when they do it, good when you do it"
It is a general statement on truth vs error
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Both the Jews in Mark 7 and the Catholic church claim they have infallible tradition.

1 John 4 says to test everything.

Mark 7 condemns the idea that later tradition can arise , and conflict with Bible teaching, and still be trusted.

Mark 7 is not in the form "bad when they do it, good when you do it"
It is a general statement on truth vs error
Mark 7 does not oppose “tradition” as such but condemns human traditions that nullify God’s command (Mk 7:8–13), which the Church likewise rejects. Christ simultaneously commands the apostles to hand on His teaching with divine authority (Matt 28:19–20), and the New Testament explicitly distinguishes apostolic Tradition—which is to be “held fast” whether delivered “by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess 2:15)—from later human accretions. The Church therefore does not claim an independent or competing source of revelation but teaches, in Dei Verbum 9–10, that Scripture and apostolic Tradition form one sacred deposit, entrusted to the Church for faithful preservation and testing—precisely the discernment urged in 1 John 4:1. Mark 7 is not a blanket prohibition on all post‑biblical development; it is a rebuke of traditions that contradict revelation, not of the Spirit‑guided transmission of the apostolic faith (cf. John 16:13; Acts 15).

Nor does the Catholic Church claim “infallible tradition” in the sense attributed in your post. Dogma holds that only apostolic Tradition is infallible, and only when authentically taught by the Church’s magisterium (Council of Trent, Decretum de Scripturis et Traditionibus; Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus). The canon of the New Testament itself is a product of this apostolic Tradition, since Scripture nowhere lists its own books; the fourth‑century councils of Rome (382), Hippo (393), and Carthage (397) simply recognised what had already been received in the Church’s living memory. Thus, the Catholic position is not “bad when they do it, good when we do it”, but that Christ established a Church capable of distinguishing divine Tradition from merely human custom, and Mark 7 is one of the very texts that requires such discernment.

For primary sources: Dei Verbum (Vatican II) — https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...nts/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html; (vatican.va in Bing) Trent on Scripture and Tradition — Sacrosanctum Concilium, Constitution On the Sacred Liturgy | EWTN (ewtn.com in Bing). [links provided by MS Copilot]
 
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Mark 7 is not in the form "bad when they do it, good when you do it"
It is a general statement on truth vs error

However there is no error in the Apostolic Tradition as we see in the church at the time of the Council of Nicaea and of Constantinople (if there were, we could not trust the legitimacy of the Council or of the editorial decisions made regarding the contents of the New Testament or of the reliability of manuscript reproduction). Christians at the time prayed for the dead (and still do) as did the Jews, we know this from 2 Maccabees, which was upheld by the Church Fathers as canonical scripture, and even if one rejects 2 Maccabees we still see obvious prayer for the dead in 2 Timothy and a total lack of any Scriptural prohibition on the concept. Nor does prayer for the dead require belief in purgatory since it is an appeal to Christ’s infinite mercy.

What is more, we have now entered the first Soul Sabbath since the fifth Sunday of Great Lent nine weeks ago; today is a day when all Eastern Orthodox Christians, along with Syriac Orthodox Christians, will be asking Christ to grant their departed loved ones memory eternal and participation in the world to come, and it is a solemn and important occasion, conceptually related to All Souls Day in the Western church albeit with no connection to the idea of Purgatory (however, like the early church Fathers, the Orthodox reject the idea of soul sleep for the very obvious reason of verses already presented.

Nor does the Catholic Church claim “infallible tradition” in the sense attributed in your post. Dogma holds that only apostolic Tradition is infallible, and only when authentically taught by the Church’s magisterium

Indeed, and the Orthodox believe the same thing albeit without accepting the idea of doctrinal development - the teaching authority of the Orthodox church is ecumenical and derives from conciliarity or sobornost to use a Slavic word which rather elegantly expresses the idea, since our doctrines were received by the entire Orthodox church as a communion between the laity, the clergy and the episcopate with Christ as the head of the Church which is His Body onto which we are mystically grafted, and is also contingent upon our preserving without modification that which was received from the Apostles and the bishops who succeeded them (for which reason the Orthodox will become unhappy even at the idea of change; our allergy to change and conservativism was also at one time more a characteristic of the Roman church than of at least some of the Eastern patriarchates; we see relatively few Latin theologians of note from Rome itself compared to Greek theologians from Antioch and Alexandria, with most scandals in the Latin speaking West and most theologians rising up to oppose them occurring in the provinces; the ancient church in Rome was exceptionally good at refusing change, development or innovation, having said no emphatically to Marcion, Valentinus, Arius, Montanus, Pelagius, Nestorius and many others, while saying yes where it mattered, for example, to the translation of Scripture and the Liturgy to Latin under St. Victor. St. Gregory the Great is unusual in that he is the only bishop of Rome who made a large contribution to both the Western and Eastern liturgical patrimony (but while in Constantinople played a vital role in preserving Orthodoxy by shutting down an argument that Christ in His resurrection (and by extension we in ours) is devoid of physicality, a kind of crypto-docetism that arises every now and then, indeed, the leader of a large American evangelical/charismatic “non-denominational” denomination known for stressing the idea that the pastors of their churches should have unchecked authority, the “Moses model” polity, which suffers from the not inconsiderable problem of lacking any precedent in the early church or New Testament warrant and from the fact that Moses was incontrovertibly a holy prophet whose prophetic office was identified through repeated miracles, did make a statement in which he implied a similar crypto-docetic view of the Resurrection.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Indeed, and the Orthodox believe the same thing albeit without accepting the idea of doctrinal development - the teaching authority of the Orthodox church is ecumenical and derives from conciliarity or sobornost to use a Slavic word which rather elegantly expresses the idea, since our doctrines were received by the entire Orthodox church as a communion between the laity, the clergy and the episcopate with Christ as the head of the Church which is His Body onto which we are mystically grafted, and is also contingent upon our preserving without modification that which was received from the Apostles and the bishops who succeeded them (for which reason the Orthodox will become unhappy even at the idea of change; our allergy to change and conservativism was also at one time more a characteristic of the Roman church than of at least some of the Eastern patriarchates; we see relatively few Latin theologians of note from Rome itself compared to Greek theologians from Antioch and Alexandria, with most scandals in the Latin speaking West and most theologians rising up to oppose them occurring in the provinces; the ancient church in Rome was exceptionally good at refusing change, development or innovation, having said no emphatically to Marcion, Valentinus, Arius, Montanus, Pelagius, Nestorius and many others, while saying yes where it mattered, for example, to the translation of Scripture and the Liturgy to Latin under St. Victor. St. Gregory the Great is unusual in that he is the only bishop of Rome who made a large contribution to both the Western and Eastern liturgical patrimony (but while in Constantinople played a vital role in preserving Orthodoxy by shutting down an argument that Christ in His resurrection (and by extension we in ours) is devoid of physicality, a kind of crypto-docetism that arises every now and then, indeed, the leader of a large American evangelical/charismatic “non-denominational” denomination known for stressing the idea that the pastors of their churches should have unchecked authority, the “Moses model” polity, which suffers from the not inconsiderable problem of lacking any precedent in the early church or New Testament warrant and from the fact that Moses was incontrovertibly a holy prophet whose prophetic office was identified through repeated miracles, did make a statement in which he implied a similar crypto-docetic view of the Resurrection.
The Orthodox instinct for paradosis as something received, guarded, and lived by the whole Church is something Catholics deeply honour; indeed, Dei Verbum 8 affirms that the Church “constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth,” not by altering the apostolic deposit but by the Spirit enabling the Church to understand it more deeply. Where we differ is not in reverence for the Fathers or conciliarity, but in recognising—on the basis of both Scripture (Mt 16:18–19; Lk 22:32; Jn 21:15–17) and the first millennium—that the Petrine ministry is itself part of that apostolic inheritance, serving the unity of the whole Church. St. Irenaeus appeals to the Church of Rome as possessing a “pre‑eminent authority” because of its apostolic foundation (Adv. Haer. 3.3.2), and St. Maximus the Confessor famously defended Rome’s doctrinal primacy during the monothelite crisis (Letter to Peter the Illustrious), not as a later Latin innovation but as a reality recognised in the East.

Catholics also agree that the ancient Roman Church was fiercely conservative in guarding the apostolic faith—its rejection of Marcion, Valentinus, Pelagius, and Nestorius is precisely why the Fathers so often looked to Rome as a doctrinal anchor. But this same conservatism is what Catholics mean by development: not change, but the Spirit‑guided clarification of what was always there, as St. Vincent of Lérins put it—growth “according to its own kind” (Commonitorium 23). The Orthodox concern about novelty is therefore not dismissed but taken with utmost seriousness; the Catholic claim is simply that legitimate development is recognisable precisely because it preserves identity with the apostolic deposit.

Finally, your point about Christ’s true, physical Resurrection is one where Catholics and Orthodox stand shoulder to shoulder. Both reject any docetic or spiritualising tendency, and both confess with St. Gregory the Great that Christ rose in the very body that suffered (Hom. in Evang. 26). Where we continue to hope for healing is not in the faith itself—which is substantially the same—but in the question of how the Church, as Christ’s Body, discerns and speaks that faith with one voice. For Catholics, the papal ministry is not an obstacle to conciliarity but its necessary guarantor; for the Orthodox, conciliarity is the primary expression of the Church’s life. These are real differences, but they are differences within a shared apostolic inheritance, and dialogue continues precisely because both sides recognise that unity is Christ’s will (Jn 17:21).

Sources (open‑access) [provided by MS Copilot]:
Dei Verbum (Vatican II): Dei verbum (vatican.va in Bing)
– St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.3.2 (public domain): CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus) (newadvent.org in Bing)
– St. Vincent of Lérins, Commonitorium (public domain): CHURCH FATHERS: Commonitorium (Vincent of Lerins)
– St. Maximus the Confessor, Letter to Peter (English trans.): [Oh dear, Copilot gave UFABET! a UFA betting site, imagine that, AI slop in the references to a good Catholic's post!!
:bigeye: ]
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Maximus of Constantinople
 
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