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Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

Spiritual Jew

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Good post! Just to add....

Jesus taught this so plainly...

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
That only refers to Lazarus being physically dead/asleep. His soul was conscious. Scripture does not teach soul sleep. John portrayed the souls of physically dead martyrs as being conscious.

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Jesus portrayed physically dead people as being conscious in Luke 16:19-31.

Jesus talked to the physically dead Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration.

Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not alive in any sense, as you believe, then God would not be their God since He is not the God of the dead.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I think your argument goes beyond what the text itself actually says. The issue is not whether Christ is eternal or divine — I agree He is and never stated otherwise, so I wish you would consider your own standard you place on others, that you do this for yourself. There is no struggle on my end, the Text is plain, when we reconcile all of the Scriptures as we are told Isa28:10

The earliest Greek manuscripts had no punctuation at all, so the comma placement is a translator’s decision, not something directly inspired in the manuscript itself. Also, the phrase “Truly I say to you today” is consistent with a known Hebrew idiom used for emphasis (compare passages in Deuteronomy where “I declare to you today” is used). So the discussion is about syntax and context, not denying Christ’s deity.

Christ Himself said after the resurrection in John 20:17, "I have not yet ascended to My Father,” it cannot be clearer than this. Jesus was not in paradise at the Cross- He was there as our Sacrificial Lamb.

I am OK agreeing to disagree- all will get sorted out in His time.
You are not differentiating between the body, soul and spirit. Jesus was saying that He had not yet bodily ascended to His Father. That does not mean His soul and spirit could not have ascended to heaven when He died.

Paul taught that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). It seems that in your view it's not possible to exist and have consciousness apart from the body, but Paul clearly indicated otherwise. He also wrote about how it was a struggle for him to decide between wanting to physically die so that he could then be with the Lord, which he said would be much better for him personally, or to remain with those who needed him so that he could continue helping them (Philippians 1:21-24).
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That only refers to Lazarus being physically dead/asleep. His soul was conscious. Scripture does not teach soul sleep.
Jesus taught sleep was when someone dies. He taught this plainly. And this is what Scripture teaches when someone is dead:

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The body turns into dust again what we were made from and the spirit goes back to Christ.

A body without a spirit is dead

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead

No one who is dead is praising the LORD
Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD

because the dead know nothing
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

only God has immortality and its not given to anyone when we die.
1 Tim 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only [e]Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

We are not judged at the time of our death. We rest in our graves until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ
1 Thess 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1

This has not happened yet so everyone before us who sleeps in Christ/dead in Christ as Jesus taught plainly waits in their grave until Jesus comes.

The first resurrection are for the saved. The second resurrection is after the 1000 years for the lost and Satan and his angles as shown plainly in Revelation 20. This is the Second death which there is no coming back from.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Until then all who are dead their soul sleeps in Christ until Judgement and Judgment according to Christ is. . .

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

John portrayed the souls of physically dead martyrs as being conscious.

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Revelation is apocalyptic literature filled with symbols and visions, so Revelation 6:9–11 does not have to mean literal disembodied souls are physically speaking under an altar. The imagery comes from the Old Testament sacrificial system, where blood was poured out at the base of the altar (Leviticus 4:7), symbolizing lives given to God. In the same way, these martyrs’ deaths are portrayed as crying out for justice, much like Abel’s blood “cried out” from the ground in Genesis 4:10—not literally speaking, but symbolizing God’s awareness of innocent suffering. Since Revelation constantly uses symbolic imagery such as beasts for kingdoms, stars for angels, and horns for power, the “souls under the altar” fits the symbolic style of the book and emphasizes that God remembers and will vindicate His faithful people.

Jesus portrayed physically dead people as being conscious in Luke 16:19-31.
Thats a parable- Jesus spoke plainly what happens to people when they are dead John 11

Jesus talked to the physically dead Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration.
Yes, this represents the two options Elijah who never had the first death - God took him and Moses was a special resurrection as noted in Jude. As 1 Thes4 shows those who sleep in Christ at His Second Coming with meet Christ in the air first then those alive at the time who never tasted death that are in Him will meat Him in the air
1 Thess 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not alive in any sense, as you believe, then God would not be their God since He is not the God of the dead.
Those who sleep in Christ are dead, its not the first death that matters as God stated plainly but the Second death that kills both the body and soul.

There is no Scripture that says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had any kind of special resurrection they sleep in Christ until Jesus comes just like King David - a man after Christ's own heart.


Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this da
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jesus taught sleep was when someone dies. He taught this plainly. And this is what Scripture teaches when someone is dead:



The body turns into dust again what we were made from and the spirit goes back to Christ.

A body without a spirit is dead



No one who is dead is praising the LORD


because the dead know nothing


only God has immortality and its not given to anyone when we die.


We are not judged at the time of our death. We rest in our graves until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ


This has not happened yet so everyone before us who sleeps in Christ/dead in Christ as Jesus taught plainly waits in their grave until Jesus comes.

The first resurrection are for the saved. The second resurrection is after the 1000 years for the lost and Satan and his angles as shown plainly in Revelation 20. This is the Second death which there is no coming back from.



Until then all who are dead their soul sleeps in Christ until Judgement and Judgment according to Christ is. . .




Revelation is apocalyptic literature filled with symbols and visions, so Revelation 6:9–11 does not have to mean literal disembodied souls are physically speaking under an altar. The imagery comes from the Old Testament sacrificial system, where blood was poured out at the base of the altar (Leviticus 4:7), symbolizing lives given to God. In the same way, these martyrs’ deaths are portrayed as crying out for justice, much like Abel’s blood “cried out” from the ground in Genesis 4:10—not literally speaking, but symbolizing God’s awareness of innocent suffering. Since Revelation constantly uses symbolic imagery such as beasts for kingdoms, stars for angels, and horns for power, the “souls under the altar” fits the symbolic style of the book and emphasizes that God remembers and will vindicate His faithful people.


Thats a parable- Jesus spoke plainly what happens to people when they are dead John 11


Yes, this represents the two options Elijah who never had the first death - God took him and Moses was a special resurrection as noted in Jude. As 1 Thes4 shows those who sleep in Christ at His Second Coming with meet Christ in the air first then those alive at the time who never tasted death that are in Him will meat Him in the air



Those who sleep in Christ are dead, its not the first death that matters as God stated plainly but the Second death that kills both the body and soul.

There is no Scripture that says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had any kind of special resurrection they sleep in Christ until Jesus comes just like King David - a man after Christ's own heart.
You are picking and choosing again; posting a few scraps that support your position, then disregarding those which, in this case, overwhelmingly oppose soul sleep, directly from our Lord's mouth, and the pen of the Evangalists.

BTW, don't you find it strange that only your group (not sure how many actually buy into the soul sleep thing) and the Christidelfinians subscribe to this doctrine? Both groups are Johnny come (very) laitlies to Christendom.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are picking and choosing again; posting a few scraps that support your position, then disregarding those which, in this case, overwhelmingly oppose soul sleep, directly from our Lord's mouth, and the pen of the Evangalists.

BTW, don't you find it strange that only your group (not sure how many actually buy into the soul sleep thing) and the Christidelfinians subscribe to this doctrine? Both groups are Johnny come (very) laitlies to Christondom.
When Jesus says its so plainly John 11, who am I to disagree with Him, even if the most the world chooses to. Jesus never taught to follow the popular crowd but to live by His every word.
 
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Douggg

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The rapture is part of the resurrection/rapture event.

Jesus comes heaven. 1Thessalonians4:16.

God has Jesus bring the souls of them who sleep in Christ, a metaphorical phrase for Christians who have died, with Him.

Jesus will circle the earth, and with a shout, call dead bodies from the dust of the earth, raising them in incorruptible eternal life bodies

And Christians who are alive at the time, their bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, also into incorruptible eternal life bodies. Reuniting souls with redeem bodies.+-

And meeting Jesus in air, all accompany Jesus back to heaven. Later, to return with Jesus at His Second Coming as His bride.


1780000577749.png
 
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Douggg

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Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".
 
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Spiritual Jew

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When Jesus says its so plainly John 11, who am I to disagree with Him, even if the most the world chooses to. Jesus never taught to follow the popular crowd but to live by His every word.
Why do you ignore or twist so many of His words then? He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is not the God of the dead, but of the living. In your view Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are completely dead and not alive in any sense. That would mean God is not their God since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).
 

SabbathBlessings

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Why do you ignore or twist so many of His words then? He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is not the God of the dead, but of the living. In your view Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are completely dead and not alive in any sense. That would mean God is not their God since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Its my belief the Scriptures presented paints a clear picture, nothing out of context, I choose to believe them as they read which reconciles with the rest of the Scriptures.

Has Abraham, Isaac Jacob died the second death or will they be part of the first resurrection for the saved? As Jesus stated plainly the first death is not what we are to fear…

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Their bodies are gone, from dust to dust, just like everyone else who dies - their spirit with God and a body without a spirit is dead and the dead know nothing and do not praise the LORD. So there are not a lot of dead bodies lying around Abraham bosom in heaven, not praising the Lord, but instead sleeping in their grave such as King David Acts 2:29 waiting for Judgement as Jesus said John12:48 Rev20 and Scripture plainly states what happens to those who are dead/sleep in Christ- future tense because judgement is the last day John12:48, John6:39-40, 44,54, John11:24, John 5:28-29 Mat 13:39-43 Acts 17:31 2 Tim4:1 Rev 20:11-13, and has not happened.

1 Thess 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This has not happened yet, but at the last trumpet - Judgement still to come…


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God
saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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When Jesus says its so plainly John 11, who am I to disagree with Him, even if the most the world chooses to. Jesus never taught to follow the popular crowd but to live by His every word.
Key point being "every" word, not just that ones that suit.
 
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keras

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Yes, it is the 'rapture to heaven' proponents who twist and take scripture out of context.

Both Revelation 20:14 and Rev 21:8 refer to the second death of the ungodly.

But those who do believe and keep their faith thru all the testing and trials to come, are blessed and holy and over them the second death has no power. Revelation 20:6. Even if they are murdered
Their names are found in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16

The second death happens after the Great White Throne Judgment, where everyone who has ever lived, are brought back to consciousness and will stand before God. Revelation 29:11-14, Daniel 7:9-10 Their names are not found in the Book of Life.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes the time after the Millennium and the interesting fact is that the faithful people who are alive then, will never die, but be changed directly into immortality. Revelation 21:1-7

The living ungodly, like all that army described in Rev 20:7-10; including Satan and his fallen angels, will die and never live again.
Whether the Lake of Fire for them, lasts for Eternity or not does not concern us.

That 1 Corinthians quote, is the main one touted by the ‘rapture to heaven’ believers. I am vilified and abused when I point out that it must happen after the Millennium; at the GWT, as only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4

We are plainly told that people will die during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

Those hopeful people who think there will be a rapture to heaven of the Church, will be disappointed and will not be prepared for all that must happen before Jesus returns.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, it is the 'rapture to heaven' proponents who twist and take scripture out of context.

Both Revelation 20:14 and Rev 21:8 refer to the second death of the ungodly.

But those who do believe and keep their faith thru all the testing and trials to come, are blessed and holy and over them the second death has no power. Revelation 20:6. Even if they are murdered
Their names are found in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16

The second death happens after the Great White Throne Judgment, where everyone who has ever lived, are brought back to consciousness and will stand before God. Revelation 29:11-14, Daniel 7:9-10 Their names are not found in the Book of Life.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes the time after the Millennium and the interesting fact is that the faithful people who are alive then, will never die, but be changed directly into immortality. Revelation 21:1-7

The living ungodly, like all that army described in Rev 20:7-10; including Satan and his fallen angels, will die and never live again.
Whether the Lake of Fire for them, lasts for Eternity or not does not concern us.

That 1 Corinthians quote, is the main one touted by the ‘rapture to heaven’ believers. I am vilified and abused when I point out that it must happen after the Millennium; at the GWT, as only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4

We are plainly told that people will die during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

Those hopeful people who think there will be a rapture to heaven of the Church, will be disappointed and will not be prepared for all that must happen before Jesus returns.
Hi Keras,

I am glad we can agree on the state of the dead, I think its an important doctrine to understand. I also agree with a lot of your view here, where we differ is the millennium.

There are two resurrections.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.
This is the first resurrection for the saved
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
And there is no way the saved can be in His presence in our corruptible bodies so 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 has to be before the millennium because it says those will resign with Him which is also in 1 Thess 4:17 and will always be with the LORD.

After the 1000 years when the saints go up where Jesus is John 14:2-6 after the 1000 years Jesus comes back for those lost for judgement for the second death, which is final.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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keras

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There are two resurrections.
But only one into immortality,- after the Millennium. The first resurrection of the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, is back to mortal bodies and they can die again, as Rev 20:56 makes clear.
And there is no way the saved can be in His presence in our corruptible bodies so 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 has to be before the millennium because it says those will resign with Him which is also in 1 Thess 4:17 and will always be with the LORD.
What there is 'no way' for, is anyone gaining immortality before the Judgment. Again; Isaiah 65:20 proves humans will still die during the Millennium. The same ones who will go annually to the Temple. Zechariah 14:16-21

BTW, I get a laugh from how people make mistakes in posting with their phones. You can resign with Jesus; I won't!
 
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Douggg

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Those hopeful people who think there will be a rapture to heaven of the Church, will be disappointed and will not be prepared for all that must happen before Jesus returns.
And where are you going to be when this present earth and heaven are destroyed ?
 
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keras

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And where are you going to be when this present earth and heaven are destroyed ?
As the existing earth does not vanish until after the Millennium, Rev 21:1-7, then provided my name is found in the Book of Life, I will live in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:9-27
 
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