I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

Jeff Saunders said:

What about those who never hear? Not all live in america and have unlimited christian teaching available.
I have had the privilege to smuggle Bibles into communist countries and many have never heard, even today, not even talking about those who have lived for hundreds of years with no Christian influences at all.

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God states that His word shall be preached to all places on earth.

LeafByNiggle said:

It is a mistake to assume that just because these evil creatures COULD be restored to the original rank, that they WILL be so restored. Universal salvation is something we hope for, but we may not assume it as a fact. Satan could have refrained from rebelling in the first place, but he didn't. Judas could have had a change of heart and refrained from betraying Jesus, but he didn't. These are all choices made for evil. It is possible, even likely, that the Satan is still too proud to ask for forgiveness and probably always will be too proud for that. These are all examples of instances where something that could have been, was not. The same could be said of universal salvation. So don't take Origen's statement as proof that all will be saved.

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I do not take Origen's statements as Scripture, but he used Scripture to get to his position. Gregory of Nyssa also stated the same thing, they read Scripture in the original Greek and understood the culture and were closer to the original disciples than we are, they also had a eastern mindset, which we in the west do not understand, which is what the original audience had and understood.
Universal Redemption is all through the New Testament, the early church understood apokatastasis ( Acts 3 ) also they trusted 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all, that can only happen if all are saved at the end, also Isaiah45:23/ Rom 14:11/ Phil 2:10-11 say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. In Phil 2 the word for confess is exomologeo, which means to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations. This is not a boot on the neck confession but a true repentance no different than any other Christian.
These and other Scripture tell that God does not do abandonment and Jesus did not fail in his mission to be the savior of the world, not a potential savior, no man's will or devil is stronger than Jesus, He will get 100% of what he paid for, God will not be robbed.

I know one thing through the discernment and wisdom and unction of the Holy Spirit, Satan must be mighty grateful that there are those that believe that everyone ever born will be in God's Kingdom. Satan is called the father of lies (deception) and how feverishly he is working.

One would think poor or communist countries would be more understanding of the Kingdom than the well off or oppressive that have more to lose.

“According to passages like Psalm 82, the spiritual beings and members of the divine council who abuse their power are judged by God and sentenced to die "like men".”

timothyu said:

One would think poor or communist countries would be more understanding of the Kingdom than the well off or oppressive that have more to lose.

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There are very significant differences between poor and Communist countries. In third-world countries, as we frequently find in Africa, for example, Christianity is immensely popular except in areas of Islamic domination. There are only three significant countries under Communist domination today - China, North Korea, and Cuba. China is certainly not a poor, third-world country, but is an economically successful country which is openly challenging the United States for world economic domination. By and large, the Chinese people are happy and well-fed, to the point where obesity is becoming a serious issue. The government has an official branch for the administration of superstition (the Chinese word for religion). It regulates all religious entities in China - Islam (primarily in Mongolia), Buddhism, Confucianism and Christianity. As long as the adherents of these religions comply with the rules and regulations of the Communist Party, they can openly practice their religion, although, among the rules and regulations, it is strictly forbidden to speak at all to anyone under the age of eighteen about religion. Thus, huge percentages of adherents of these religions have opted to ignore the government and practice their religion out of the government gaze, which is increasingly difficult in this modern age of surveillance and AI. There is a growing interest in Christianity in China, not because of its inherent message of the Gospel, but because of its association with American and prosperity. As for Cuba and North Korea, they remain strict Marxist countries with great poverty and absolute tyranny of the government.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I've been aware of that for a number of decades now and hold the position myself, with other certain parameters.

You only have to tweak those details to save Satan.

I'm sure you are aware that there are many specific scriptures that are the opposite of your intents that technically can not be overcome. That entire Satanic salvation scheme is where some URists took a bad turn is all. And it sends them down heresy lane and ruins their witnessing, at least to other believers. Satanic salvation and God being the LoF are a couple of those off positions. But URists in general seems to have been a gathering ground for a lot of various heresy rogue ideas, antinomianism, denial of O.T. scriptures, evil flesh, etc etc. from what I've experienced over the years hanging out with them.

And that's kind of what happens whenever there is a move of God in the people. Saw it in charismania as well. It's a direct result of the reality of Mark 4:15 in the people.


Scripture does state evil is a power. Hab. 2:9.

Evil also comes from within people, Mark 7:12-23.

Evil does not disappear with the presence of good either, so the position is basically nonsense. Similar to saying Satan only exists because of a lack of people.


And that is exactly the case, with not only evil, but whatever exists in His creation. Things don't create themselves.

Now, keep in mind just because God can creat a turd doesn't make God a turd so please don't associate God with what He creates. God can create and use anything and still be far greater than anything in His creation or even the sum of it all. Too many people can not conceive of God as "greater than" what He creates. It's a simple mistake.

And they were simply shortsighted. They merely provided excuses and isolation for their conceived God because of the existence of evil, and thinking they can rah rah cheerlead people past the fact of evil's existence if they simply behave and do good, which has been well disproved by history at this point.

Dualism is simply a mistake, thinking God is the same as His creation. Dualism is actually a form of pantheism, where God is in everything in creation and they falsely think then that God is evil because He created evil.

They just simply couldn't understand that God can create things like evil and death and MAKE THEM SERVE His Purposes because He Is Greater. Which is the entire point of the exercise.

Evil is a real thing. It's a power. It abides within people. And GOD Himself bound us to it in our flesh via the "spirit of disobedience" which is Satan and his messengers. They are the antiChrist spirits, the spirit of disobedience.

And every person engages these things within, and from that we have a superabundance of evil reflected into our societies.

Patent baloney. People are not the same as the evil we are bound with.

All have sin. Romans 3:9. And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and many many other citings.

How many N.T. citings do you need to recall that Satan and devils work through people. Did you forget to read the obvious?

I cited that there is not a single scripture anywhere stating Satan was holy and cited Jesus to the same extent.


Yes indeed He did. AND he cut that monster in pieces and fed it to the masses: Psalm 74:14




Only because you can't conceive of the fact that God is in for no uncertain fact able to make GOOD come about from EVIL. I call it shortsightedness on your part.

There are other matters happening within the creation and allowance of evil in this wicked age as well. But unless a person comes to grips with the fact of it and stops making excuses and isolations for their god/God they can't understand it anyway. Your version of God is weak and ineffective is all. And is in need of excuses and isolation from His Own creation and can't seem to do a single thing about it. He just has to turn his little hoary head the other way and go "oh my, isn't that horrible."

In case you missed it God Himself has no issues whatsoever with mass genocide, killing an entire world except for 8 people. God also directed the murder of children and sent adultery into the house of David as retributive evil.

God still works retributive evil to this very day, rendering evil for evil and then some.

No thing in creation is good in and of itself. Again this only comes about from people who have a god/God who needs isolation from the things He created. Things in creation are only Good IF God Himself is involved. And He Is.

Was the serpent in the garden good? Was the knowledge of evil in the garden good? Was the law that brought potential death to Adam and Eve good? NONE of these things were in and of themselves good.

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


The issue is you want to USE these kinds of scriptures to contradict the very specific exemptions to the above and that simply doesn't work.

I accept that God will be all in all, but there are very specific scriptural exemptions. God is not going to be "in Satan or devils." God is not going to be "in death." God is not going to be in "hell." God is not going to be in "pain, sorrow, tears." God is not going to be in a physical rock that eventually melts or decayed and turned to dust and blew into the wind. I could go on.

You can't take scriptures like that and just toss it over everything in denial of the other scriptures that show exemptions to the rule.

When we read that God will be all in all, that can just as easily mean only God Himself will be left at the end and there will be no other "things."



Evil is nothing more than a temporary tool. IF a smelter uses heat and chemicals to refine metals does that mean the slag has to be redeemed? NO. It simply gets tossed aside.

I stated that is the belief of E.O. Not my belief.

I have studied those who claim that God is the LoF or some such. As to the LoF, I'd say God is not that LoF. Jesus said the fire was prepared for the devil and his messengers. I'd think that God is always the same and didn't have to change or be prepared to accomodate the devils, as if it wasn't anticipated from before anything ever happened.


Oh please spare me this kind of nonsensical equivocational twisting.

We know that death and hell are tossed into the LoF, never to be seen again so please don't try to tell me that God's love is HELL. Good grief. This is the kind of word twisting nonsense that URists try when trying to minimize the fact of eradication or torture.

I'm pretty sure everyong whom God killed felt some kind of pain/torture. And let's not forget the scores of animals.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure death and hell and pain and sorrow and tears are not going to be converted by fire. Nor is the spirit of disobedience going to be changed into the spirit of cooperation. It's just kind of reaching way past what's presented.

If you wanted to fast forward and say there is nothing but God at the end you'd probably be far more accurate., scripturally.

There really is no need whatsoever for what you are trying to do. IF Satan was supposed to be saved, there would be statements to that specific intention in the scriptures and there ISN'T. It's that simply.

Satan, devils, evil, sin, death, hell, pain, sorrow, tears and a lot of innanimate creation is simply going to take a permanent hiatus from creation, as if they never existed.

But that exactly where you're quite vainly trying to go.

And you simply fail to see that God can use things for good and toss away the refuse. You for some quite stupid (sorry) reason want to save the refuse.

Lots of things are not going into eternity. Lots. Wood, hay and stubble will NOT be there. Not even in dust form.

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Thank you very much for your candid response. While I appreciate your emphasis on G-d’s absolute sovereignty, your position unintentionally leads to a theological problem that the Church in the Early Centuries had already resolved.

You argue that G-d uses evil as a temporary tool and discards the dross. This image makes no sense when one considers the nature of the matter. A human smelter uses pre-existing, impure material. G-d, on the other hand, creates out of nothing. If He had intentionally created Satan from the beginning as a monstrous, evil being, evil would not be a byproduct; it would be a direct, primary creation of Him. That would brand G-d as the source of all darkness. Scripture fundamentally contradicts this with the words

G-d is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5b.

You claim that there are specific exceptions to G-d’s final all-in-all sovereignty, and suggest that Satan, death, and hell are simply excluded and eradicated. Paul, however, in his letter to the Corinthians, explicitly names the only exception to this rule

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1 Cor 15:27

While the verse points to the Father as the only exception, you try to add a dozen more (Satan, fallen angels, unbelievers). If everything, the entirety of creation, is subject to G-d and the Son submits Himself so that G-d may be almighty, then the text does not suggest a place of eternal damnation.

I do not try to save the slag, because I do not view G-d’s living creation as worthless waste. I believe that the fire of the Refiner purifies the creature of its evil deeds and corruptions in order to save it and restore what He originally deemed very good

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty... Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:12 .15.

You claim that death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire to be banished from creation forever, and equate this with literal annihilation. However, your view misinterprets the precise meaning of what Paul uses for the word destroyed in Corinthians

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται ὁ θάνατος

katargeo primarily means to render something ineffective, to nullify its power, or to render it non-functional, rather than to physically annihilate it. It describes the loss of function, relevance or strength, as is the case with the disempowerment of death; see Root Idea and Spectrum of Meaning (scroll down).

When Paul says that the last enemy is death, he means that the power of death has been completely neutralized. When death is rendered completely powerless, no being can hold it captive anymore, neither in a physical grave nor in a spiritual lake of fire. As long as death keeps millions of souls or spiritual beings trapped in eternal separation from G-d, it has not been neutralized; it remains a prison. The destruction of death means the liberation of its prisoners.

Powers that are rendered completely powerless and ineffective by Christ no longer exist as autonomous counter-kingdoms that defy G-d. Their rebellion is utterly neutralized. The enemies, on the other hand, are not exempt from submission, but are simply stripped of their power.

You insist on the idea that G-d deliberately created a monstrous, evil being from the very first moment of its existence, and you cite John and Mark to argue that Satan has no sacred origin to which he could return

He was a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44b
ἐκεῖνος ἀνθρωποκτόνος ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς,

However, this is an interpretation error.

The term from the beginning describes the beginning of a specific earthly, human, or historical process, but not the absolute, timeless beginning of G-d’s original creation.

In the Gospel of John, Christ speaks of the beginning of human history, the temptation of Adam, and the first murder of a human being (Cain and Abel). Satan became a murderer as soon as there were humans he could kill. The claim that Satan is evil by nature contradicts G-d’s own words, in which everything He created is described as very good

And G-d saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31

G-d did not create a spirit of disobedience out of nothing. He created a glorious heavenly being with free will, and that being chose pride

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of G-d:... I will be like the most High. Isa 14:12-14

For if G-d spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pe 2:4

Ezekiel describes the king of Tyre and, through him, looks at the spiritual power at work behind this king: Satan himself. The king thus becomes a symbol of the first fallen angel.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1 Tim 3:6

This directly confirms that pride was the catalyst for the judgment against the devil. Through this, the cherub in heaven became the greatest adversary of G-d and humankind.

Universal restoration does not mean saving the spirit of rebellion; it means that the fire of G-d’s love will burn away the rebellion until nothing remains of the creature except the pure, original spirit that He called into being through His Word.

bbbbbbb said:

There are very significant differences between poor and Communist countries.

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Thank you for that but my point was the Kingdom would be more accepted by those already familiar with no burdens of wealth and already in basic communal living. Those following the prosperity gospel or associating the Kingdom with a wealthier lifestyle are already doomed as they go in the wrong direction. The Kingdom is about servitude, not self.

timothyu said:

Thank you for that but my point was the Kingdom would be more accepted by those already familiar with no burdens of wealth and already in basic communal living. Those following the prosperity gospel or associating the Kingdom with a wealthier lifestyle are already doomed as they go in the wrong direction. The Kingdom is about servitude, not self.

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I take your point. Thank you.

Jeff Saunders said:

This is from Grok AI- I do believe that you have not done your homework.
The primary early Church Fathers associated with the belief in apokatastasis (the restoration of all things, including the devil) are Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–254) and Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–395). This view, drawn from passages like Acts 3:21 ("the restoration [apokatastasis] of all things"), 1 Corinthians 15:28 ("God will be all in all"), and Philippians 2:10–11, posits that God's goodness and the finite/non-substantial nature of evil will ultimately lead to the voluntary reconciliation of all rational creatures, including fallen angels.
This teaching was controversial and later condemned in some forms (especially the salvation of the devil) at the 5th-century Council of Constantinople (553), but it had supporters in the early centuries.

Origen of Alexandria​

Origen is the most prominent early proponent. In On First Principles (De Principiis), he speculates on the ultimate restoration:

On the "last enemy" (often identified with the devil/death):

Origen emphasizes free will: restoration comes through education, purification, and voluntary turning back to God over potentially many ages, not coercion. He sometimes distanced himself from crude claims that "the devil will be saved" by noting that when restored, the being would no longer be "Satan" (adversary).

Gregory of Nyssa​

Gregory of Nyssa, a Cappadocian Father and saint in the Eastern Church, developed similar ideas, often seen as more refined. In The Great Catechism (also called Catechetical Oration), chapter 26:

He also argues that evil is a privation (non-being) that cannot endure eternally, so all creation—including the one who introduced evil—will ultimately be purified and restored.
Another relevant passage from Gregory:

Other Notes​

• Jerome (in some writings) and others noted that "many" or "most" in their time held similar hopes, including for the devil.
• These views were speculative and tied to philosophical reasoning (e.g., evil as finite, God's infinite goodness). They were not the majority view long-term, and explicit inclusion of the devil was particularly contested.
• Modern scholarship (e.g., Ilaria Ramelli) affirms that apokatastasis was central to Origen and influenced Gregory.

These quotes reflect hope in God's ultimate victory over all evil through restorative justice rather than endless retribution. For full context, reading the primary sources (On First Principles and The Great Catechism) is recommended.

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Your mistake is calling it endless retribution, as if God is hurt by Satan and needs to take vengeance. It seems that you are buying into Satan’s argument, which is deception
To understand why apokatastasis is heresy, we have to view the nature of angelic beings and the words from scripture regarding the war in heaven.
Angelic beings were created as pure spirit with full knowledge and will. At creation they were given a choice. Choose to serve in God’s kingdom, or refuse to serve. Once they made their choice, their will was fixed.
Satan tried to tell us that it was not fair, he has no chance for repentance, but that is a deception. He does not want repentance to serve God. He wants God to repent and allow him into the Kingdom of heaven.
Scripture tells us that after the war in heaven, there was no space found any longer for the devil and his angels.
God’s kingdom is one of humility and service based on love. In God’s kingdom, the last will be first and the first will be last. The greatest among us will be servants. Their is a hierarchy in
Heaven, and to enter, we must be a little children.
Children are to be obedient to parents, and not exalt themselves above their parents as satan has done, and continues to do. He tempted our Lord with all he had, if God would bow down and worship him. The arrogance of that offer and absurdity with which we would live if Satan had been successful.
God loves His creation, but He does not bow to His creation, we bow to Him. All glory and honor belongs to God alone. The Archangel Michael takes his name from his battle cry and argument against Satan’s proposal. Michael means “who is like God?” It is absurd that the Creator would bow and worship His creation. God is the source of all being, and everything that is made comes from Him. With Satan’s cry along with his angels of “we will not serve”, there is no space anywhere in heaven for them, and there never will be. There is no space for repentance because those angels now demons had full knowledge of creation and their place in it. God withheld nothing from them, and they still chose to rebel. How can anyone come to repentance is they already knew what was offered to them, along with the consequences of their rebellion, yet did it anyway. What more could God have given them above full knowledge of heaven and Earth? When they already know everything and chose to rebel, what more could convince them or error
Satan cries not the tears of repentance, he cried the tears of loss, because he threw it all away. God did not trick him or deceive him. Satan saw and knew everything, but his pride did not allow him to serve, and since he already knew everything including all wisdom and knowledge, yet still chose to separate himself from God, by what means would he come to repentance? He cannot claim ignorance.
Satan has three names as an imitation of the Holy Trinity, those being Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub. That is why the Pharisees were guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, when they said it by Beelzebub he casts out demons. They were equating the Holy Spirit with Satan. That sin is unforgivable
As humans, we do not have complete knowledge and are able to come to repentance when we see the error of our ways. Jesus says that if we are to come after Him, we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross and begin to follow in His footsteps. Belief in Jesus is not a free pass to mimic Satan and refuse to serve. To come to Christ and receive the gift of salvation, we must die to self and begin to learn to be servants in heaven. There are some humans who will refuse to serve out of pride, and no space will be found in heaven for them either
We have every chance in this life to see the foolishness of pride and repent before God, but when we die, our will is fixed just as the angel’s wills are now fixed
It is not that God wished to punish the reprobate for their sins, but they have rejected God’s grace and held onto their pride just like the demons. God can forgive any sin, except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because He said He won’t. The longer we stay in sin and out of pride refuse to humble ourselves, the more difficult it is to repent, and our desire to live in heaven where we are humbled and live to serve is so diminished that we could not remain in heaven. God’s kingdom would be a miserable place for a prideful soul
God cannot be labeled as unfair. He does not send angels or human souls to hell against their will. He gives every soul what it wants. Hell is not a punishment against our will. Hell is the completion of angelic will and human will that does not wish to serve in God’s kingdom. Hell is eternal separation from God, according to what Satan, the demons and human souls tell God that they want

Benaiah468 said:

Thank you very much for your candid response. While I appreciate your emphasis on G-d’s absolute sovereignty, your position unintentionally leads to a theological problem that the Church in the Early Centuries had already resolved.

You argue that G-d uses evil as a temporary tool and discards the dross.

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Uh, no. That was not said nor the point. The "power of evil" is the dross that will be discarded permanently along with many other things.

Benaiah468 said:

This image makes no sense when one considers the nature of the matter.

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You'd prefer the power of evil have an eternal status?

Benaiah468 said:

A human smelter uses pre-existing, impure material. G-d, on the other hand, creates out of nothing. If He had intentionally created Satan from the beginning as a monstrous, evil being, evil would not be a byproduct; it would be a direct, primary creation of Him.

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Let's get a basic straight on this one. God can create anything and not be that thing. This is a rather simple construct that avoids pantheism.

God is NOT what He creates/created. There is THE CREATOR and the creation. Two entirely distinct matters.

Benaiah468 said:

That would brand G-d as the source of all darkness.

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As The Creator, yes. And God can do so simply on the basis of being Greater than any given thing within creation or even the sum of all things. He still remains Greater.

We have The Creator. And we have everything in creation categorically as "less than" The Creator.

Evil just happens into the less than category further down on the scale. But useful nevertheless, because God Is Greater.

Benaiah468 said:

Scripture fundamentally contradicts this with the words

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Uh, no it does not. There is nothing that exists in creation that is apart from God's Will to have it exist.

Otherwise we are into an entirely different philosophical space, not Christianity.

Benaiah468 said:

G-d is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5b.

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You've merely set up your own strawman and are now busy trying to best it, thinking it was something I said. You left out the reality that I never said it.

Let's repeat so you get this figured out. God can create anything and not be that created thing. God did create the power of evil. God did create the waster to destroy. God did, pardon the expression, anti-personify that working in the form of the "spirit of disobedience," the tempter. And even created that working to replicate/multiply itself INTO mankind's bodies, and even into creation, such as into pigs if you recall.

AND there is ample scriptural evidence that God even commands evil agencies by way of His Words, which causes them to both show themselves in people and to resist His Words.

On a simpler scale you as a mini creator in grade school took baking soda and mixed it within vinegar and created a big fizz, an unstable carbonic reaction that made carbon dioxide gas. But you were not the baking soda, the vinegar, the fizz or the carbon dioxide gas.

Benaiah468 said:

You claim that there are specific exceptions to G-d’s final all-in-all sovereignty,

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Yes, there is. Satan does have a finish point, as does evil, sin, death, hell, tears, sorrow, pain etc.

As much as you oddly seem to want it otherwise, these things are presented in scripture as having an END. Never to be seen again.

Benaiah468 said:

and suggest that Satan, death, and hell are simply excluded and eradicated. Paul, however, in his letter to the Corinthians, explicitly names the only exception to this rule

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1 Cor 15:27

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You can look at that apart from the scriptural exceptions or you can incorporate what scripture actually says about the exemptions. I appreciate the effort, but it is an error nevertheless. Those aforementioned are going to come to an E N D.

Benaiah468 said:

While the verse points to the Father as the only exception, you try to add a dozen more (Satan, fallen angels, unbelievers).

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Well, you tossed in the unbelievers part. I did not.

People are unbelievers BECAUSE OF Satan. That does not make the blinded the same as the BLINDER.

In fact I'm reluctant to say any person is an unbeliever on the basis of 1 John 4:7, seeing that anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. Are they unbelievers then? Nope. They do know God. Paul alludes to this as well in Romans 1:19-20

Benaiah468 said:

If everything, the entirety of creation, is subject to G-d and the Son submits Himself so that G-d may be almighty, then the text does not suggest a place of eternal damnation.

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Oh yes it does. Satan, evil, sin, death, hell, sorrow, pain, tears are all going bye bye. None of that is going to be changed into something else. Nothing going into the infamous lake is coming out again. It's called the second death for a very good reason.

Benaiah468 said:

I do not try to save the slag,

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Well of course you do. You imagine that the Gospel and the power of God is going to "change Satan" into something else that is not an antiChrist spirit.

I'd simply suggest that the lake of fire could just as easily be an antiHeaven for them, and they'll hate it, which is what they do. Hate.

Benaiah468 said:

because I do not view G-d’s living creation as worthless waste.

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Never said it was. I'm pretty sure God is using those things for very specific reasons, some of which are openly identified in the scriptures, such as in Romans 11:32.

Benaiah468 said:

I believe that the fire of the Refiner purifies the creature of its evil deeds and corruptions in order to save it and restore what He originally deemed very good

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We've already been down this road. Nothing in creation can be viewed as a stand alone item apart from God's Workings and uses of them. Though the power of evil IS actually evil, God can use it for good, as we again know from scripture. God DID actually raise up pharaoh to be an enemy to Israel and then showed His Power over pharaoh by killing both him and his army and horses, etc. God used pharaoh as an unfortunate example of His both showing mercy to Israel and NO MERCY to pharaoh, at least in this present life. I believe that pharaoh, the man, was saved. But the real pharaoh in the equation was actually SATAN in PHARAOH. See Ezek. 29:3 for the "real pharaoh." All pictures of pharaoh's in the O.T. are behind the scenes looks at how Satan operates.

Benaiah468 said:

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty... Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:12 .15.

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Yeah, you really should pay closer attention to the fine print, in this case IN THY WAYS.

God created a perfect devil, perfect in his devilish ways.

That does not mean Satan was GOD PERFECT or man perfect or a perfect animal specimen perfect or a perfect flower or whatever.

Gotta learn to be careful when tossing around words like "perfect" as its meaning can vary dramatically depending on what the term is attached to.

When someone is said to be perfectly evil that does not mean it's a good thing.

Benaiah468 said:

You claim that death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire to be banished from creation forever, and equate this with literal annihilation. However, your view misinterprets the precise meaning of what Paul uses for the word destroyed in Corinthians

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Let's clear the air on this one, right here. You want death and hell to carry on? Yeah or Nay?

Benaiah468 said:

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται ὁ θάνατος

katargeo primarily means to render something ineffective, to nullify its power, or to render it non-functional, rather than to physically annihilate it.

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I'll accept permanent nothing as being nullifying non-functional, thank you. You're just picking at fleas because in "your theology world" you think you have to figure out how to get all those people out of the lake of fire where they are being tortured into submission. I don't have that issue. There will be no people in the LoF to begin with, or if there is, they will not be harmed by it, Rev. 2:11

Benaiah468 said:

It describes the loss of function, relevance or strength, as is the case with the disempowerment of death; see Root Idea and Spectrum of Meaning (scroll down).

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Unfortunately some of you URists (I am one also) have to do word twisting backflips to get where you want to go.

There is a far simpler way to see these things.

People are saved.

Devils are not.

fini

Benaiah468 said:

When Paul says that the last enemy is death, he means that the power of death has been completely neutralized.

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Great. Then let's not try to save or reconstitute it, huh?

I've heard some crazy crazy stories from URists about how after being totally burned up there is still some dust, so they try to reconstitute that dust into something else. It's like, what is the point exactly?

Benaiah468 said:

When death is rendered completely powerless, no being can hold it captive anymore, neither in a physical grave nor in a spiritual lake of fire. As long as death keeps millions of souls or spiritual beings trapped in eternal separation from G-d, it has not been neutralized; it remains a prison. The destruction of death means the liberation of its prisoners.

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You're just way off on that story is all. The things in the LoF belong there, permanently, second death of all there. Thee End.

Benaiah468 said:

Powers that are rendered completely powerless and ineffective by Christ no longer exist as autonomous counter-kingdoms that defy G-d. Their rebellion is utterly neutralized. The enemies, on the other hand, are not exempt from submission, but are simply stripped of their power.

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I really am not seeing any scriptural evidence of antiChrist spirits being "redeemed" anywhere in the scriptures.

Jesus did not come to save Satan or his own. Your story is just a wild imagination and unnecessary hyper word extrapolation that has no point and no basis in scripture.

Benaiah468 said:

You insist on the idea that G-d deliberately created a monstrous, evil being from the very first moment of its existence, and you cite John and Mark to argue that Satan has no sacred origin to which he could return

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True. There never was a holy Satan and Satan is never described that way OR you'd have a point. But there is no point to be had. There is no Holy Satan. There will never be a Holy Satan.

And yes, God did create all things including an evil empowered antiChrist spirit of disobedience called Satan.

Benaiah468 said:

He was a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44b
ἐκεῖνος ἀνθρωποκτόνος ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς,

However, this is an interpretation error.

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It's not an interpretation. It's a direct quote without needing interpretation.

Benaiah468 said:

The term from the beginning describes the beginning of a specific earthly, human, or historical process, but not the absolute, timeless beginning of G-d’s original creation.

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So says you. When Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, that is from Satan's beginning or Jesus would have qualified it was somthing else's beginning. But that never happened. Therefore it's Satan's beginning. No interpreting neccessary. Your position REQUIRES you to reinterpret it.

Benaiah468 said:

In the Gospel of John, Christ speaks of the beginning of human history, the temptation of Adam, and the first murder of a human being (Cain and Abel). Satan became a murderer as soon as there were humans he could kill. The claim that Satan is evil by nature contradicts G-d’s own words, in which everything He created is described as very good

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Satan entered Adam immediately after God sowed His Words upon Adam. Mark 4:15.

From that moment on it was Adam and the tempter, internally. Just as it is with all of us today.

Benaiah468 said:

And G-d saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31

G-d did not create a spirit of disobedience out of nothing. He created a glorious heavenly being with free will, and that being chose pride

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Satan didn't "choose" himself into the position he has and had. And I'm not a freewiller so there's that.

There is no will that is apart from God's workings, good or bad.

Benaiah468 said:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of G-d:... I will be like the most High. Isa 14:12-14

For if G-d spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pe 2:4

Ezekiel describes the king of Tyre and, through him, looks at the spiritual power at work behind this king: Satan himself. The king thus becomes a symbol of the first fallen angel.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1 Tim 3:6

This directly confirms that pride was the catalyst for the judgment against the devil. Through this, the cherub in heaven became the greatest adversary of G-d and humankind.

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I do not see any need whatsoever into conjuring up freewill choices for Satan. That's just another fairy tale trying to make poor old Satan into "bad decisions."

Benaiah468 said:

Universal restoration does not mean saving the spirit of rebellion; it means that the fire of G-d’s love will burn away the rebellion until nothing remains of the creature except the pure, original spirit that He called into being through His Word.

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Satan is not a child of God, never was, never will be. And was NEVER presented that way in scripture. It's one of my beef's with your particular sect of URism. You present Satanic salvation and any serious Bible adherent's should rightfully reject that notion and the other notion your sect has, which is burning people into submission in the LoF, which I also happen to detest. The temporary torture of my neighbors. Maybe you should temporarily burn also therein?

Satan is not Jesus' brother, unless you live in Utah.

boughtwithaprice said:

Your mistake is calling it endless retribution, as if God is hurt by Satan and needs to take vengeance. It seems that you are buying into Satan’s argument, which is deception
To understand why apokatastasis is heresy, we have to view the nature of angelic beings and the words from scripture regarding the war in heaven.
Angelic beings were created as pure spirit with full knowledge and will. At creation they were given a choice. Choose to serve in God’s kingdom, or refuse to serve. Once they made their choice, their will was fixed.
Satan tried to tell us that it was not fair, he has no chance for repentance, but that is a deception. He does not want repentance to serve God. He wants God to repent and allow him into the Kingdom of heaven.
Scripture tells us that after the war in heaven, there was no space found any longer for the devil and his angels.
God’s kingdom is one of humility and service based on love. In God’s kingdom, the last will be first and the first will be last. The greatest among us will be servants. Their is a hierarchy in
Heaven, and to enter, we must be a little children.
Children are to be obedient to parents, and not exalt themselves above their parents as satan has done, and continues to do. He tempted our Lord with all he had, if God would bow down and worship him. The arrogance of that offer and absurdity with which we would live if Satan had been successful.
God loves His creation, but He does not bow to His creation, we bow to Him. All glory and honor belongs to God alone. The Archangel Michael takes his name from his battle cry and argument against Satan’s proposal. Michael means “who is like God?” It is absurd that the Creator would bow and worship His creation. God is the source of all being, and everything that is made comes from Him. With Satan’s cry along with his angels of “we will not serve”, there is no space anywhere in heaven for them, and there never will be. There is no space for repentance because those angels now demons had full knowledge of creation and their place in it. God withheld nothing from them, and they still chose to rebel. How can anyone come to repentance is they already knew what was offered to them, along with the consequences of their rebellion, yet did it anyway. What more could God have given them above full knowledge of heaven and Earth? When they already know everything and chose to rebel, what more could convince them or error
Satan cries not the tears of repentance, he cried the tears of loss, because he threw it all away. God did not trick him or deceive him. Satan saw and knew everything, but his pride did not allow him to serve, and since he already knew everything including all wisdom and knowledge, yet still chose to separate himself from God, by what means would he come to repentance? He cannot claim ignorance.
Satan has three names as an imitation of the Holy Trinity, those being Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub. That is why the Pharisees were guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, when they said it by Beelzebub he casts out demons. They were equating the Holy Spirit with Satan. That sin is unforgivable
As humans, we do not have complete knowledge and are able to come to repentance when we see the error of our ways. Jesus says that if we are to come after Him, we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross and begin to follow in His footsteps. Belief in Jesus is not a free pass to mimic Satan and refuse to serve. To come to Christ and receive the gift of salvation, we must die to self and begin to learn to be servants in heaven. There are some humans who will refuse to serve out of pride, and no space will be found in heaven for them either
We have every chance in this life to see the foolishness of pride and repent before God, but when we die, our will is fixed just as the angel’s wills are now fixed
It is not that God wished to punish the reprobate for their sins, but they have rejected God’s grace and held onto their pride just like the demons. God can forgive any sin, except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because He said He won’t. The longer we stay in sin and out of pride refuse to humble ourselves, the more difficult it is to repent, and our desire to live in heaven where we are humbled and live to serve is so diminished that we could not remain in heaven. God’s kingdom would be a miserable place for a prideful soul
God cannot be labeled as unfair. He does not send angels or human souls to hell against their will. He gives every soul what it wants. Hell is not a punishment against our will. Hell is the completion of angelic will and human will that does not wish to serve in God’s kingdom. Hell is eternal separation from God, according to what Satan, the demons and human souls tell God that they want

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Most of your post is pure theological speculation without any firm basis in scripture. For a topic such as this, which has fascinated innumerable folks, scripture is actually quite silent.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You'd prefer the power of evil have an eternal status?

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Adversity was a part of creation. Creation is built upon opposites. The end result of all that we know is a divide in creation where, for sake of explanation, two worlds exist with adversity in one and loyalty in the other. This is why it is said adversity is forgotten in the Kingdom. We choose which we have allegiance to by our actions in life.

boughtwithaprice said:

Your mistake is calling it endless retribution, as if God is hurt by Satan and needs to take vengeance. It seems that you are buying into Satan’s argument, which is deception
To understand why apokatastasis is heresy, we have to view the nature of angelic beings and the words from scripture regarding the war in heaven.
Angelic beings were created as pure spirit with full knowledge and will. At creation they were given a choice. Choose to serve in God’s kingdom, or refuse to serve. Once they made their choice, their will was fixed.
Satan tried to tell us that it was not fair, he has no chance for repentance, but that is a deception. He does not want repentance to serve God. He wants God to repent and allow him into the Kingdom of heaven.
Scripture tells us that after the war in heaven, there was no space found any longer for the devil and his angels.
God’s kingdom is one of humility and service based on love. In God’s kingdom, the last will be first and the first will be last. The greatest among us will be servants. Their is a hierarchy in
Heaven, and to enter, we must be a little children.
Children are to be obedient to parents, and not exalt themselves above their parents as satan has done, and continues to do. He tempted our Lord with all he had, if God would bow down and worship him. The arrogance of that offer and absurdity with which we would live if Satan had been successful.
God loves His creation, but He does not bow to His creation, we bow to Him. All glory and honor belongs to God alone. The Archangel Michael takes his name from his battle cry and argument against Satan’s proposal. Michael means “who is like God?” It is absurd that the Creator would bow and worship His creation. God is the source of all being, and everything that is made comes from Him. With Satan’s cry along with his angels of “we will not serve”, there is no space anywhere in heaven for them, and there never will be. There is no space for repentance because those angels now demons had full knowledge of creation and their place in it. God withheld nothing from them, and they still chose to rebel. How can anyone come to repentance is they already knew what was offered to them, along with the consequences of their rebellion, yet did it anyway. What more could God have given them above full knowledge of heaven and Earth? When they already know everything and chose to rebel, what more could convince them or error
Satan cries not the tears of repentance, he cried the tears of loss, because he threw it all away. God did not trick him or deceive him. Satan saw and knew everything, but his pride did not allow him to serve, and since he already knew everything including all wisdom and knowledge, yet still chose to separate himself from God, by what means would he come to repentance? He cannot claim ignorance.
Satan has three names as an imitation of the Holy Trinity, those being Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub. That is why the Pharisees were guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, when they said it by Beelzebub he casts out demons. They were equating the Holy Spirit with Satan. That sin is unforgivable
As humans, we do not have complete knowledge and are able to come to repentance when we see the error of our ways. Jesus says that if we are to come after Him, we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross and begin to follow in His footsteps. Belief in Jesus is not a free pass to mimic Satan and refuse to serve. To come to Christ and receive the gift of salvation, we must die to self and begin to learn to be servants in heaven. There are some humans who will refuse to serve out of pride, and no space will be found in heaven for them either
We have every chance in this life to see the foolishness of pride and repent before God, but when we die, our will is fixed just as the angel’s wills are now fixed
It is not that God wished to punish the reprobate for their sins, but they have rejected God’s grace and held onto their pride just like the demons. God can forgive any sin, except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because He said He won’t. The longer we stay in sin and out of pride refuse to humble ourselves, the more difficult it is to repent, and our desire to live in heaven where we are humbled and live to serve is so diminished that we could not remain in heaven. God’s kingdom would be a miserable place for a prideful soul
God cannot be labeled as unfair. He does not send angels or human souls to hell against their will. He gives every soul what it wants. Hell is not a punishment against our will. Hell is the completion of angelic will and human will that does not wish to serve in God’s kingdom. Hell is eternal separation from God, according to what Satan, the demons and human souls tell God that they want

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You are addressing the nature of angels and the problem of free will.

Satan and his angels did not act with full knowledge, but in blindness. Had they known what they were doing, they would never have allowed Jesus to be crucified

What none of the rulers of this world has perceived; for had they perceived it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor 2:8

Apocatastasis by no means means that G-d bows down before Satan. It means that the refiner’s fire burns away pride until the creature bends the knee

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10-11

The entire creation, without exception, heavenly, human, and subterranean beings who have actively opposed G-d (Satan and fallen angels) will acknowledge the absolute rule of Jesus Christ. His sovereignty extends even over his enemies.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:20

You can only reconcile what was once at peace. G-d has decided to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of the cross, which explicitly includes the angelic realm (things in heaven). The purpose of judgment is not endless retribution, but the destruction of evil in order to save creation.

Evil is not a substance. When G-d destroys it in fire, only the good creature automatically remains. If hell were a place where human or spiritual will defied G-d eternally, evil would remain alive there, autonomous and unbroken. This would contradict G-d’s complete victory.

If the name Michael testifies Who is like G-d?, then the answer is: No one. And that is precisely why no creature, no Satan, and no human will ultimately have been more powerful than the all-consuming, all-renewing love of the Creator.

In judgment, G-d does not give the creature what its sick pride desires, but He does to the creature what His sovereign love has decreed:

Behold, I make all things new. Rev 21:5b

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Uh, no. That was not said nor the point. The "power of evil" is the dross that will be discarded permanently along with many other things.

You'd prefer the power of evil have an eternal status?

Let's get a basic straight on this one. God can create anything and not be that thing. This is a rather simple construct that avoids pantheism.

God is NOT what He creates/created. There is THE CREATOR and the creation. Two entirely distinct matters.

As The Creator, yes. And God can do so simply on the basis of being Greater than any given thing within creation or even the sum of all things. He still remains Greater.

We have The Creator. And we have everything in creation categorically as "less than" The Creator.

Evil just happens into the less than category further down on the scale. But useful nevertheless, because God Is Greater.

Uh, no it does not. There is nothing that exists in creation that is apart from God's Will to have it exist.

Otherwise we are into an entirely different philosophical space, not Christianity.

You've merely set up your own strawman and are now busy trying to best it, thinking it was something I said. You left out the reality that I never said it.

Let's repeat so you get this figured out. God can create anything and not be that created thing. God did create the power of evil. God did create the waster to destroy. God did, pardon the expression, anti-personify that working in the form of the "spirit of disobedience," the tempter. And even created that working to replicate/multiply itself INTO mankind's bodies, and even into creation, such as into pigs if you recall.

AND there is ample scriptural evidence that God even commands evil agencies by way of His Words, which causes them to both show themselves in people and to resist His Words.

On a simpler scale you as a mini creator in grade school took baking soda and mixed it within vinegar and created a big fizz, an unstable carbonic reaction that made carbon dioxide gas. But you were not the baking soda, the vinegar, the fizz or the carbon dioxide gas.

Yes, there is. Satan does have a finish point, as does evil, sin, death, hell, tears, sorrow, pain etc.

As much as you oddly seem to want it otherwise, these things are presented in scripture as having an END. Never to be seen again.

You can look at that apart from the scriptural exceptions or you can incorporate what scripture actually says about the exemptions. I appreciate the effort, but it is an error nevertheless. Those aforementioned are going to come to an E N D.

Well, you tossed in the unbelievers part. I did not.

People are unbelievers BECAUSE OF Satan. That does not make the blinded the same as the BLINDER.

In fact I'm reluctant to say any person is an unbeliever on the basis of 1 John 4:7, seeing that anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. Are they unbelievers then? Nope. They do know God. Paul alludes to this as well in Romans 1:19-20

Oh yes it does. Satan, evil, sin, death, hell, sorrow, pain, tears are all going bye bye. None of that is going to be changed into something else. Nothing going into the infamous lake is coming out again. It's called the second death for a very good reason.

Well of course you do. You imagine that the Gospel and the power of God is going to "change Satan" into something else that is not an antiChrist spirit.

I'd simply suggest that the lake of fire could just as easily be an antiHeaven for them, and they'll hate it, which is what they do. Hate.

Never said it was. I'm pretty sure God is using those things for very specific reasons, some of which are openly identified in the scriptures, such as in Romans 11:32.

We've already been down this road. Nothing in creation can be viewed as a stand alone item apart from God's Workings and uses of them. Though the power of evil IS actually evil, God can use it for good, as we again know from scripture. God DID actually raise up pharaoh to be an enemy to Israel and then showed His Power over pharaoh by killing both him and his army and horses, etc. God used pharaoh as an unfortunate example of His both showing mercy to Israel and NO MERCY to pharaoh, at least in this present life. I believe that pharaoh, the man, was saved. But the real pharaoh in the equation was actually SATAN in PHARAOH. See Ezek. 29:3 for the "real pharaoh." All pictures of pharaoh's in the O.T. are behind the scenes looks at how Satan operates.

Yeah, you really should pay closer attention to the fine print, in this case IN THY WAYS.

God created a perfect devil, perfect in his devilish ways.

That does not mean Satan was GOD PERFECT or man perfect or a perfect animal specimen perfect or a perfect flower or whatever.

Gotta learn to be careful when tossing around words like "perfect" as its meaning can vary dramatically depending on what the term is attached to.

When someone is said to be perfectly evil that does not mean it's a good thing.

Let's clear the air on this one, right here. You want death and hell to carry on? Yeah or Nay?

I'll accept permanent nothing as being nullifying non-functional, thank you. You're just picking at fleas because in "your theology world" you think you have to figure out how to get all those people out of the lake of fire where they are being tortured into submission. I don't have that issue. There will be no people in the LoF to begin with, or if there is, they will not be harmed by it, Rev. 2:11

Unfortunately some of you URists (I am one also) have to do word twisting backflips to get where you want to go.

There is a far simpler way to see these things.

People are saved.

Devils are not.

fini

Great. Then let's not try to save or reconstitute it, huh?

I've heard some crazy crazy stories from URists about how after being totally burned up there is still some dust, so they try to reconstitute that dust into something else. It's like, what is the point exactly?

You're just way off on that story is all. The things in the LoF belong there, permanently, second death of all there. Thee End.

I really am not seeing any scriptural evidence of antiChrist spirits being "redeemed" anywhere in the scriptures.

Jesus did not come to save Satan or his own. Your story is just a wild imagination and unnecessary hyper word extrapolation that has no point and no basis in scripture.

True. There never was a holy Satan and Satan is never described that way OR you'd have a point. But there is no point to be had. There is no Holy Satan. There will never be a Holy Satan.

And yes, God did create all things including an evil empowered antiChrist spirit of disobedience called Satan.

It's not an interpretation. It's a direct quote without needing interpretation.

So says you. When Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, that is from Satan's beginning or Jesus would have qualified it was somthing else's beginning. But that never happened. Therefore it's Satan's beginning. No interpreting neccessary. Your position REQUIRES you to reinterpret it.

Satan entered Adam immediately after God sowed His Words upon Adam. Mark 4:15.

From that moment on it was Adam and the tempter, internally. Just as it is with all of us today.

Satan didn't "choose" himself into the position he has and had. And I'm not a freewiller so there's that.

There is no will that is apart from God's workings, good or bad.

I do not see any need whatsoever into conjuring up freewill choices for Satan. That's just another fairy tale trying to make poor old Satan into "bad decisions."

Satan is not a child of God, never was, never will be. And was NEVER presented that way in scripture. It's one of my beef's with your particular sect of URism. You present Satanic salvation and any serious Bible adherent's should rightfully reject that notion and the other notion your sect has, which is burning people into submission in the LoF, which I also happen to detest. The temporary torture of my neighbors. Maybe you should temporarily burn also therein?

Satan is not Jesus' brother, unless you live in Utah.

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Thank you for your detailed response. We share a common belief that G-d will ultimately save all people. However, when it comes to whether this includes the heavenly powers or whether they will be destroyed, we have completely different interpretations of Scripture.

G-d does not torment. His fire is, figuratively speaking, a smelting furnace. It consumes sin, rebellion, death, and Hades. When death and rebellion are destroyed in the fire, what remains? The creature in its original state, freed from the power of evil.

Universal Restoration is truly universal only if, in the end, Christ does not stand as the destroyer of His own imperfect creation, but as the One who eradicates rebellion so completely that the original creature once again reflects what it was created for: the glory of G-d.

At this point, our back-and-forth feels like a game of ping-pong, with neither of us getting any closer to the other. Perhaps it’s best if we just agree to disagree on this. It’s nice when we at least see eye to eye on saving humanity.

Not destroyed but separated. If evil is destroyed Then so is goodness.

boughtwithaprice said:

Your mistake is calling it endless retribution, as if God is hurt by Satan and needs to take vengeance. It seems that you are buying into Satan’s argument, which is deception
To understand why apokatastasis is heresy, we have to view the nature of angelic beings and the words from scripture regarding the war in heaven.
Angelic beings were created as pure spirit with full knowledge and will. At creation they were given a choice. Choose to serve in God’s kingdom, or refuse to serve. Once they made their choice, their will was fixed.
Satan tried to tell us that it was not fair, he has no chance for repentance, but that is a deception. He does not want repentance to serve God. He wants God to repent and allow him into the Kingdom of heaven.
Scripture tells us that after the war in heaven, there was no space found any longer for the devil and his angels.
God’s kingdom is one of humility and service based on love. In God’s kingdom, the last will be first and the first will be last. The greatest among us will be servants. Their is a hierarchy in
Heaven, and to enter, we must be a little children.
Children are to be obedient to parents, and not exalt themselves above their parents as satan has done, and continues to do. He tempted our Lord with all he had, if God would bow down and worship him. The arrogance of that offer and absurdity with which we would live if Satan had been successful.
God loves His creation, but He does not bow to His creation, we bow to Him. All glory and honor belongs to God alone. The Archangel Michael takes his name from his battle cry and argument against Satan’s proposal. Michael means “who is like God?” It is absurd that the Creator would bow and worship His creation. God is the source of all being, and everything that is made comes from Him. With Satan’s cry along with his angels of “we will not serve”, there is no space anywhere in heaven for them, and there never will be. There is no space for repentance because those angels now demons had full knowledge of creation and their place in it. God withheld nothing from them, and they still chose to rebel. How can anyone come to repentance is they already knew what was offered to them, along with the consequences of their rebellion, yet did it anyway. What more could God have given them above full knowledge of heaven and Earth? When they already know everything and chose to rebel, what more could convince them or error
Satan cries not the tears of repentance, he cried the tears of loss, because he threw it all away. God did not trick him or deceive him. Satan saw and knew everything, but his pride did not allow him to serve, and since he already knew everything including all wisdom and knowledge, yet still chose to separate himself from God, by what means would he come to repentance? He cannot claim ignorance.
Satan has three names as an imitation of the Holy Trinity, those being Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub. That is why the Pharisees were guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, when they said it by Beelzebub he casts out demons. They were equating the Holy Spirit with Satan. That sin is unforgivable
As humans, we do not have complete knowledge and are able to come to repentance when we see the error of our ways. Jesus says that if we are to come after Him, we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross and begin to follow in His footsteps. Belief in Jesus is not a free pass to mimic Satan and refuse to serve. To come to Christ and receive the gift of salvation, we must die to self and begin to learn to be servants in heaven. There are some humans who will refuse to serve out of pride, and no space will be found in heaven for them either
We have every chance in this life to see the foolishness of pride and repent before God, but when we die, our will is fixed just as the angel’s wills are now fixed
It is not that God wished to punish the reprobate for their sins, but they have rejected God’s grace and held onto their pride just like the demons. God can forgive any sin, except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because He said He won’t. The longer we stay in sin and out of pride refuse to humble ourselves, the more difficult it is to repent, and our desire to live in heaven where we are humbled and live to serve is so diminished that we could not remain in heaven. God’s kingdom would be a miserable place for a prideful soul
God cannot be labeled as unfair. He does not send angels or human souls to hell against their will. He gives every soul what it wants. Hell is not a punishment against our will. Hell is the completion of angelic will and human will that does not wish to serve in God’s kingdom. Hell is eternal separation from God, according to what Satan, the demons and human souls tell God that they want

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So you believe Acts 3:23 is heresy? Is this the only verse you believe is heresy or are there more?
You say " Angelic being were created as pure spirit and full knowledge and will". " God withheld nothing from them, and they still chose to rebel. " Can you show me where in scripture that is found. We are never in scripture when they were created, let alone how God/ Jesus did it.
I find it sad that you think so little of the Trinity that they would create this wonderful cosmos, with full knowledge of the beginning and the end, having a desire/ will that all would be in fellowship with them and not have what it takes to get the job done, that Jesus would come to seek and save the lost and still lose most to the enemy, he must be a poor strategist.
I do not believe any human would ever choose " hell " , even if there was such a place of eternal torture, they may reject the god of religion, but they have never heard of the true Gospel to reject it, we were created to be in fellowship with the Trinity, do you believe that was just to hard for the Godhead?

timothyu said:

Adversity was a part of creation. Creation is built upon opposites. The end result of all that we know is a divide in creation where, for sake of explanation, two worlds exist with adversity in one and loyalty in the other. This is why it is said adversity is forgotten in the Kingdom. We choose which we have allegiance to by our actions in life.

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Choice = Works gospel

Benaiah468 said:

Thank you for your detailed response. We share a common belief that G-d will ultimately save all people. However, when it comes to whether this includes the heavenly powers or whether they will be destroyed, we have completely different interpretations of Scripture.

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Scripture has a different set of statements than your conclusion on the latter

Benaiah468 said:

G-d does not torment.

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The claim that there is no torment in this present life or the hereafter also isn't true. Rev. 14:10-11

Benaiah468 said:

His fire is, figuratively speaking, a smelting furnace. It consumes sin, rebellion, death, and Hades. When death and rebellion are destroyed in the fire, what remains? The creature in its original state, freed from the power of evil.

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We touched on this prior. God is not the LoF.

The notions that URists try, that all types of scriptural fire are ultimately for the good of those being reduced to ashes by it isn't true.

Benaiah468 said:

Universal Restoration is truly universal only if, in the end,

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Devils universally are going to be put away forever.

IF you had a single example of Satanic salvation you might have a point, but there is no such claim in the texts

Benaiah468 said:

Christ does not stand as the destroyer of His own imperfect creation,

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God created the waster to destroy. Isa. 54:16

Benaiah468 said:

but as the One who eradicates rebellion so completely that the original creature once again reflects what it was created for: the glory of G-d.

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There is no changing devils into holy angels. I seriously don't know why you guys try so hard to present Satanic salvation. Why don't you just concentrate on people and leave the scripturally unsubstantiated aside?

Benaiah468 said:

At this point, our back-and-forth feels like a game of ping-pong,

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It's not ping pong. The presentation of Satanic salvation is NOT the Gospel and Jesus NEVER presented such a matter.

You're simply off the pages on this subject.

Benaiah468 said:

with neither of us getting any closer to the other. Perhaps it’s best if we just agree to disagree on this. It’s nice when we at least see eye to eye on saving humanity.

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I tend to cut to the chase on this side of the ledger. You must have figured out by now that other believers have NOT arrived at the Satanic salvation as being legitimate.

It seriously ruins your witnessing.

God k knows people’s hearts and primarily who can be trusted. He is through with the untrustworthy once and for all no matter how good their bluff.